I live in Australia and am about to purchase my first centrefire rifle. Will probably be a Cz Hunter, Sako in .243. Have not ruled out Winchester 700 BBL ( the model sold here with the nice chequering: makes me shoot better!!).

I will not be going after big game ; feral goats , on and , more frequently , assisting friends with feral pig culling. The pigs can weigh over 200 lbs and a lot of shooters use 308s. This is just too much rifle for what I shoot most of the time.

How large a bullet can be safely handloaded as a 50 grain bullet will not be enough to stop some of these pigs; they have nasty tasks and I as much concerned about my safety and those of others than about humane shooting!!

There does not seem to have been too much experience in Australia, to my knowledge at least , on the stopping and recoil of the WMSM .243 .

However, I do not need, for the vast majority of the time, more hunting grunt than the

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straight

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.243.

I look forward to any comment on the above , including rifle choice

100-Grain bullets are the maximum that I use in the 243. That’s the maximum hunting bullet weight that Sierra and Nosler make. The 243 does a good job on 200 pound deer at reasonable range but 200 pound pigs are a little different story, they have some thick ribs. Keep your shoots close, that little 100-gr. bullet is working overtime on pigs.

Am also giving thought to purchasing a Marlin 30/30 SS Lever Action.

Very good value rifle, pushes a bullet that will drog a pig, and some acquaintenances have them as their only rifles, have range tested them and been very impressed by the MOA, at least to 100-150 yards. They have no need to shoot beyond that range ( for pigs, and kangaroos). Note that most Australina shooters would agreee, that for kangaroos - which can be quite large but have some skins- a .222 or .223 is all you need. Many farmers use .22M rimfires

For your application I would feel more comfortable with the 30/30 at close range with iron sights. The 30/30 has taken a lot of game for a lot of years.

quote:

Originally posted by Robert Cudlipp:


I live in Australia and am about to purchase my first centrefire rifle. Will probably be a Cz Hunter, Sako in .243. Have not ruled out Winchester 700 BBL ( the model sold here with the nice chequering: makes me shoot better!!).

I will not be going after big game ; feral goats , on and , more frequently , assisting friends with feral pig culling. The pigs can weigh over 200 lbs and a lot of shooters use 308s. This is just too much rifle for what I shoot most of the time.

How large a bullet can be safely handloaded as a 50 grain bullet will not be enough to stop some of these pigs; they have nasty tasks and I as much concerned about my safety and those of others than about humane shooting!!

There does not seem to have been too much experience in Australia, to my knowledge at least , on the stopping and recoil of the WMSM .243 .

However, I do not need, for the vast majority of the time, more hunting grunt than the

quote:

straight

quote:

.243.

I look forward to any comment on the above , including rifle choice

Not trying to make up your mind for you, But I feel it is better to have a bit more power and not need it than to be short on it when the chips are down. The .243 is a lovley round and I used to have one( wish I still had it).

If you are looking for something with low recoil and good performance you could also look at the 260 Rem or the 7mm-08 Rem.

You can hand load from about 90-160 grain bullets in the 260 and from about 120 up to 175 grains in the 7mm-08 ( depending on what bullets you can get in Oz)

If you went with mid range bullet weights in either like say 125 nosler partition in the 260 and a 140 partition in the 7mm either would shoot more than flat enough and have enough punch out to 300 yards or so for what you would like to do. If you are shooting pigs at closer ranges you could go to the heavier bullets at moderate speeds and punch the shit out of them.

Hopefully you will find something you like that is accurate and does what you need it to do.

Back to the 243 question....

I use a lot of the Speer 105 grain SP bullets... they are cheap, perform as good as a lot of the premium bullets do.. They cost about $11.50 for a box of 100....Sectional density is .254....
They are superbly accurate....

In a 22 inch barrel, I get an MV of 3250 fps with a load of 44 grains of H 414.. and large rifle primers....The load is 2 grains over the 42 grains listed in the Hodgdon No. 26 Manual.....

47.5 grains of IMR 7828 will also give you the same MV.... but I prefer the H 414... or W 760 which essentially is the same powder....

cheers

seafire

I used 100gr and 87 gr projectiles in my .243 and to be honest the 87gr was a far better killer, also had a flatter trajectory.
I took Red deer, Fallow, big pigs, chamios, tahr and goats with no problems- dont under estimate their killing power.

Sierra 85 gr HPBT thru the ribs will do it if you do your part!! Don't hit bones or meat!!

quote:

Originally posted by steve_s:
I used 100gr and 87 gr projectiles in my .243 and to be honest the 87gr was a far better killer, also had a flatter trajectory.
I took Red deer, Fallow, big pigs, chamios, tahr and goats with no problems- dont under estimate their killing power.

I have seen quite a few posts on the US based forums about shooting large , one shooter claims 98 goats in a day and a 1/2!! Some claims were backed up by photos.

There seems no shortage of goats, admittedly in hard to get to locations ( helicopter drop offs etc) and same with deer.

Would a .243 handle the goats? If so, would you need 100 grain bullets? Some allowance should be made for the fact that we are not all , on every target, one shot kills!!

I have no interest in deer.

Thanks,

Robert,

a 243 with 87 - 90 g bullets will handle any goat, at reasonable range but can be a bit light for the larger pigs...

It also depends on what sort of country you're in... a lot of the big pigs are taken at close range in thick scrub/marshes... a 243 up the backside won't do the job.

btw, I wouldn't use 50g in the 243 for anything except roos and varmint type stuff...

Have you thought about a 270 for the pigs?

How about this, load up with five boxes each with all the factory loads you can find, go shoot 30 or so of each type and size animal your hunting and report back to us your results.

Part of the problem is seeking to find the one rifle for "all occasions".

I think that a .223 would suit most of my needs, fox, goats? , or do you consider goats would really need a .243?

If am after pigs, intend purchasing Marlin 30/30SS , cheap , powerful knowdown rifle.

Whilst .270 would handle goats and pigs, it is just too much rifle for what I would be shooting most of the time for which my Anschutz .22LR and a yet to be purchased .223 would do the job just fine.

30/30 could clean up the rest, but will purchase .243 if needed for goatsl

Robert,

We spend a lot of time parsing the relative merits of small differences. Lots of folks have taken lots of game with both the 243 and the 30-30. Either will work for you, assuming you use the right bullets for the job.

In the 30-30, the Remington (roundnose) CoreLokt is a fine bullet. If you're happy with the rifle, it will work fine out to 100 to 150 meters; after that, the bullet drop will making hitting difficult.

In the 243, there are several premium bullets that will work for you, including Nosler Partition and Barnes Triple Shock. I might choose the Nosler for goats and the "bang-flop, dead-right-there" capability, and the Barnes when penetration is most important, as with your pigs. This cartrige comes in many fine bolt action rifles and has a reputation for excellent accuracy, as well as a recoil that one can live with for a long time. Your mileage may vary.

Jaywalker

Robert,

your posts are somewhat confusing... in your first post you say...

"...feral goats , on and , more frequently , assisting friends with feral pig culling. The pigs can weigh over 200 lbs and a lot of shooters use 308s..."

You then say...

"...Whilst .270 would handle goats and pigs, it is just too much rifle for what I would be shooting most of the time for which my Anschutz .22LR and a yet to be purchased .223 would do the job just fine..."

There's a reason many goat/pig hunters use the 308/270 class of rifle... they work, and work well under most conditions. 22/22mag and 223 are far too light for either animal, although with a very carefully placed shot, both will do the job on smaller animals at close range...

It depends on where you're shooting, and what you intend to do with the result... 22/22mag will kill rabbits and leave enough meat and skin, likewise foxes... (no, don't try eating fox meat!!!) 223 will skin, bone, dice, chop and mince any fox you hit, skin will be worthless.

Reality is, there's no such thing as a true all round rifle, which is why I own a 22, 22mag, 223, 243, 270 and a 12g shottie.

If you MUST have something that will (sort of) handle everything you're talking about, a 243 with 87 - 90 g projies will do most of the job, most of the time, and you can buy ammo at your local milk bar...

If your first priority really is according to your first post, go for 243 up... 7/08, 270, 308...

If you really want some excitement in your life, go into the lignum after a 80-100k pig with nothing more than a 223... it's a real reality check!!!

Sorry to cause the confusion.
The bottom line of what I had intended to convey is that I appreciate that .223 is far too light for pigs. If it turns out that my assistance is needed relatively frequently on the feral pig shoots, I will simply purchase a Marlin SS 30/30. That will stop them.

Whilst tempted to use a .243 for pigs, it seems that this is just tempting fate , and also decent kills to the ferals; when you see the mess they make of farming setups, it is hard to feel much sympathy for them. Certainly farmers do not and , from what I have seen, rarely chase after a wounded pig.

Both those calibres are not too "friendly" for rabbit and fox shooting in more closely settled areas.

Will use .223 and .22LR for that shooting .

Thanks for the tips and I hope this clears up my apparent confusion.

You could split the difference and have a very versatile rifle with the 260, 6.5x55 or 7mm08 and have a choice of light and heavy bullets for a large variety of game and have light recoil. Then you don't have to worry about the heaviest bullet you can get in a 243. I am 7mm08 lover so that is my first choice.

Robert,

thanks for clarifying the situation... I can now see where you're coming from.

You're right, a lot of farmers don't go after wounded vermin ("...they're hit, they'll die..") and as you say, when you see what the buggers do to stock (and dams, etc.,)... well... let's just say I can understand their lack of sympathy. I used to graze sheep, and now graze cattle, so I DO see what they do!! Not pleasant!!

I reckon you're pretty much on the right track... 243 is marginal for the bigger fellas, and since a lot of pigs are found in less than ideal situations, a quick handling rifle is certainly an asset... kinda got my eye on a rather cute Marlin 30/30 myself!! When the action gets fast and furious, a 5 shot bolt action just doesn't cut it!!

I get the feeling you're a thoughtful kinda bloke, so good luck, and if in doubt, keep asking questions!!

If you are wanting a hard hitting rifle for short brush range on heavier animals, or hard to kill animals.. why mess with a 30.30 when you can move up to a 444 or 45/70.. and remove any doubt about its ability... if you handload, a 444 with a 300 grain Hornady XTP at 1500 fps won't kick that much, but sure will drop anything within a 100 yds.. and do so with no fuss or hassles....I don't shoot a 45/70, so I don't know the particulars on loads... as I never had the need for one, when I purchased a 444....but the 45/70 will do anything the 444 will do....

I love the 30.30, don't get me wrong.. but the 444 removes the "doubt factor" when it arises when using a 30.30....within their range limits..

cheers
seafire

Seafire,

you make a very valid point... however one of the BIG differences between Oz and the US is availability of ammo... Our Gov't isn't exactly 'gun friendly', and our population is only about 20 Million, in roughly the same space as your 330? Million... and the vast majority of that population is concentrated on the edges... trying to buy ammo can be an exercise in frustration... eg, I don't know any gunshops west of Sydney who regularly stock 6mmRem, or 257Bob ammo... great cartridges, but ammo is a PITA to find if you either don't handload, or run out of ammo!! Add to that the distances involved in getting to your local town... 300-400 km's is not at all uncommon... and if it rains, you may not be able to go anywhere!!!

That's one reason why we tend to stick with 223, 243, 270, 6.5x55, 303, 30/30, etc., easy to get ammo...

I'll admit that I haven't enquired about availability of 45/70, or 444 ammo, but I wouldn't be too confident of getting it out where I am...

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Originally posted by rugeruser:
Seafire,

you make a very valid point... however one of the BIG differences between Oz and the US is availability of ammo... ..

Hey Rugeruser, Sounds like an excellent reason for you all to get into Reloading your own.

Just rescanned the thread and there is a lot of excellent information that has been posted.

Like the 105gr Speers for the 243Win by Seafire. As a buddy of mine once said after making his 50th kill with a 270Win, " Sure is a fine cartridge. I like it almost as well as my 243 with the 1-0-5s."

Excellent recommendations as well on the 260s, 7mm-08s, 308Wins, etc., especially if Reloaded.

Robert mentioned the Mar 30-30SS which should be excellent. As well as the 444Mar that Seafire also mentioned. Here again Reloading allows a person to use a particuler bullet that enhances the capability of each cartridge for the Game being hunted over limited off-the-shelf choices.

What ever cartridges you all choose, Reloading would help make your final selection a more versitle firearm.

Best of luck to you all.

quote:

I will simply purchase a Marlin SS 30/30. That will stop them.

There ya go, good choice!

HotCore,

No argument about reloading... I do it myself, and have done for years... but there are times when I've run out of ammo/components. For me, when I'm on my farm, the nearest source of decent components is a 6 hour drive... and there's no guarantee that he'll have what I want!!

I have friends from the States who are simply staggered by the distances between towns (you guys would probably call them hamlets)... we have a small population, spread very thinly when away from the Eastern seaboard... (ie Sydney/Melbourne) as a consequence, our retailers don't carry anything like the range of gear you have over there...

Even in the major cities (Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane) it can be a major PITA to get things... by way of example... just prior to Christmas, I wanted to buy a set of Lee RGB dies and a case trimmer 'pin' for my boy's 243... The 243 is a hugely popular chambering here, and Sydney has IIRC, a population of about 4M... that's serviced by about 7 gunshops...

After many phone calls, I was able to buy the dies at one gunshop, the case trimmer pin (spiggot?) at another, and get some powder at another. I wanted to try some Accubond projectiles, but gave up... all on back order...

And that was in our premier city...

A major country town (Dubbo in central NSW) has a population of 38000... and two gunshops...

Dubbo, btw, is the town that is 6 hours drive from my main property...

I know it's a circular argument, but here in Oz, we tend to favour what we can get...

It is however, a small price to pay for living in God's backyard...

Rugeruser, dunno if it would help there in Oz, but circumstances such as you describe are not uncommon in the US insofar as gunshop shopping is concerned. If it weren't for mail order few would be able to find the equipment or components we want. Even with mail order however there is the issue of shipping. One strategy used in the last place I lived related to clays shooting, but would apply to rifles/handguns as well...bulk orders put an end to a lot of BS. Fella that ran the Clays course would take orders over a period of time(usually quite short due to demand), then place an order. His supplier paid freight on orders over 250# and it doesn't take much lead to get THERE. His only stipulation was in regards to quantity. He did not deal with nickle and dime...minimum of one sleeve of primers as an example(5000), etc etc. I have no idea what the distributor thought about sending rifle loading components, or on occasion even the odd gun part, but it saved a lot of money and time. Perhaps you and your mates could band together and place a bulk order with one of the local gunshops...easier on him from a finance perspective, better for you as you get what you order. I can't imagine life is so different in Oz that it wouldn't work.

quote:

Originally posted by rugeruser:
...For me, when I'm on my farm, the nearest source of decent components is a 6 hour drive... and there's no guarantee that he'll have what I want!!

I have friends from the States who are simply staggered by the distances between towns ...

Hey Rugeruser, Yes, 6-hours to get to a Gun Shop is different from what I'm used to.

We have a good many Gun Shows over here that allow us to get some excellent buys on Reloading Components and about anything I want. And as DD mentioned, I'm spoiled on Mail Order.

Excellent idea by DD to make a Bulk Buy of things if that is possible for you.

I do somewhat "envy" the open space you have, but I can see where it would make going to any store a real burden.

Are you all allowed to have Revolvers?

Best of luck to you all.

Digital Dan and Ruger User

I am not sure whether I had indicated that , apart from potentially purchasing a centrefire in .223 or .243, will definitely be purchasing a Marlin SS 30/30. For me advantages of using " standard" 30/30 ammo are availability, stopping power and, whilst this may seem a little lacking in macho, the lack of recoil, compared to say a .270

Am not sure if you have seen the new Marlin X?P ads for their lever action rifles in 30/30 upwards.

They will use much more powerful Hornady developed ammo.

The ads say that this will make the new range, which will not replace the current Marlin SS and other lever actions, in 30/30 at least, a capable deer rifle out to 250 yards. See the Marlin site and the Hornady claims for the ammo on their homepage.

I do not want to sheet deer.

However, would you guys advise as to the anticipated recoil of the new Hornady cartridge in 30/30 " Lever Revolution" - Marlin's home page words, over the standard 30/30.

I could not find details of the powder loading for the new Hornady ammo range. Was not listed in their ad/ads.