I'm contemplating a project to have a B78 22-250 re-barreled to 221 FB. It appears to be a more hand loader friendly cartridge compared to the hornet but hardly any factory rifles in it. They speak highly of the 221 in the Nosler manual. Can anyone account for the lack of popularity while the hornet is everywhere? I want a rifle that is simply a pleasure to shoot at the range where I don't need the powder wasting performance of the 22-250.
Rick

Why not run with the .222 ? Lapua brass available and was the king of benchrest until the PPC came along.
A whole lot easier to develop an accurate load for than the Hornet and can easily download to Fireball levels.

I recently pruchased a Cooper Custom Classic in 221 FB. It shoots half MOA all day with several of the loads I have tried. Reloading is a snap, cases not nearly as fragile as the Hornet, and I personally find the round more accurate than the previous Kimber Cascade I owned in the .22 Hornet caliber. My biggest problem with the Hornet is with case resizing and case life. I think the issue was best articulated to me about 25 years ago by the guy running the reloading desk at the Kittery Trading Post in Kittery, Maine. After discussing my problems in loading .22 Hornet rounds with him, he commented "yep, you come into your reloading room and just say the word "lubricant", and half of your .22 Hornet cases will dent".
I love loading and shooting the 221FB and would never go back to a Hornet.

I have a custon sako A1 in 221 FB. Its a very accurate and easy to load cartridge. I have shot a few coyotes and PDs with it. Nothing at all wrong with that cartridge. Good question as to why there are so few rifles chambered in it. Unfortunately one can not just screw in a 221 chambered barrel into a Rem 700 and have it function. There will be extraxtion and ejection issues if you try to shoot it as a repeater. I know first hand. That was not the case with the Sako A1 action.

My hornets are an old kimber 82 and a heavy barrel anschuts 1730. Both are very accurate.
Yeas the cases are thin and fragile, but I have no problems loading hornet cases. The anschutz sees a lot of PD action so I load 500 -1000 every year and have no issues.

You won't go wrong with either. I'd go with the FB though cause you can get hornets in more other factory guns.

hornets can be finicky to reload, k-hornet better choice but as said before 222 best.

i did redo a lowall into 221. made a nice little piece. that said i also have a few hornets and k hornets. if you are contemplating a hornet go to the k hornet & you'll eliminate the plain hornet problems. the 221 has a bit more poop than the hornets, which can be quite useful if you want to shoot 50-55 gr bullets.

I have two .221 Fireballs in rifles -- one is a custom Sako L461 and the other is built on a Mini Mark X Zastava "Mauser". Both shoot incredible groups using either the Nosler 40 grain Ballistic Tip or the Hornady 40 V-Max. Velocity is over 3400 fps from either, using either AA-2200 or AA-1680, with the latter powder a very slight favorite and yielding a bit more velocity.

I also have four Hornets and one K-Hornet. I like the Hornets and enjoy playing with them a lot, but the .221's are in a whole different class -- virtually the same class as the .222 (of which I also own several). The .221's will take prairie dogs at 300+ yards, while the longest shot I've ever seen made with a Hornet is 208 yards. The .221's will regularly knock over bowling pins out to 400 yards, whereas the Hornets (which are very accurate at 100 yards using the same bullets) are "spray and pray" at this distance. The extra 600 fps makes a huge difference.

I can't tell you how much I enjoy my .221's. They've become my preferred prairie dog rifles, as well as go-to guns for informal bench shooting. The only thing I can think of better might be a .20 Vartarg, which is simply the Fireball necked down to use a .204 bullet.

The 221 case because it is shorter than a 222Rem does cause some feeding issues in a 700.
I had my 221 on an XP100 action action so as a single shot feeding was not an issue. Performance wise it was very accurate, velocity was better than I expected. I shot it as my main shooter for prairie dogs for a couple of years. From 10-400 yards it was very effective.

rik,

I'd go with the 221FB in a heartbeat; a whole league easier to play with than a 22 Hornet any day of the week.

With your Browning you're in control, too, no feeding issues with short(er) cases.

So-o-o-o many reasons vs. the Hornet which will shoot with alot of tweaking and is a good round but the 221fb is so much more of a better Thing; easy loading, case life, barrel heat, increased perfomance, economy and don't forget Sierra 40 gr. SP's despite the allure of the lightweight plastic-tipped Spitzers, either.

The 22 Hornet or the K Hornet, I had a K Hornet once, just does not have the accuray potential of the other 22's baised on the 222 style case.

I think I would rebarrel to 223, just because of the widespread amount of 223 brass, etc, but if I wanted a less powerful, quieter, more economical cartridge It would be the 221 Fireball.

I too am a "Old Gun Nut" and just have always had a Luv affair with Hornet-K-Hornet and the Mashburn Bee.
After gettin a BUNCH of Grey hairs with the accuracy or lack there of. I took the advice of a gunsmith friend 221 Fireball.
You can load it down to Hornet velocities or up to within a Heartbeat of the Duce.
No brass issues bullet selection Crumbled necks etc

Get the Fireball you will not be disapointed

Jim

I've loaded for a number of small caliber chamberings.




Pretty much anything based on the 221 Fireball, if done right is capable of fine accuracy.



17 Mach IV, 221 Fireball, 20 Vartarg



The 20 Vartarg (221 fireball necked down to .204")is my current small caliber favorite.

It certainly shines in my Cooper




Although it is not a rimmed cartridge like the hornet, you should not have extraction issues with the fireball in the highwall.

My only reservation with the highwall would be the weight. A walking varminter is more my taste......



Something on the order of the Reminton 700 LVSF above, a Cooper Model 21 Classic a CZ model 527, or a Custom built on a Sako Riihimaki, L461 or AI action.

Best

GWB

The Hornet is more popular because it has been around a lot longer. However, I think the FB is the better round and have an XP100 in that caliber, and a Cooper on-order. It is quiet, accurate, and inexpensive to load.

I don't know much about the B78, but the extractor is probably going to need work or replacement going from the 22-250 to .222/.223 size case. The base diameters are significantly different. I think I would go with the .222 because the brass is more widely available and will handle 50gr bullets better, if needed.

I would go with .222.
Fireball brass is not that common now. It will be worse in the future.

quote:

Fireball brass is not that common now. It will be worse in the future.

Remington makes it. Buy 1k or more in brass (I have 1500 rounds), and never have to worry again. The round is actually more popular than the .222.

quote:

the extractor is probably going to need work

difinatly true and doing that is kinda bitchy

Thanks everyone. I've also been concerned about 221 brass supply but that's the only reason I'd lean toward the 222 which I also considered. The replies demonstrate that there is a strong core of support for the 221 and that demand should keep the supply of brass flowing. Geedubya thanks for the great pics and I also realize that there are other excellent rifles that would arguably be a better choice for this round but part of this story is the B78. I do love these falling blocks. I just hope that extractor doesn't cause to much difficulty for the gunsmith.
Rik

I have made 100's of 221 cases that in turn become 20 VarTarg from 222 or 223. I shortened a 222 neck die to bring the longer brass shoulder case wall point back to the the FB length and preliminary trim. FLS and finish trim. Quick simple and an everlasting supply of FB brass.

If you're a reloader (which I assume that anyone considering a .221 Fireball would be), then brass is not an issue, whether it continues to be available from the factory (which it likely will) or whether it must be reformed from some other .222-based case.

OK - I have to admit that one of the reasons I really like shooting my Cooper Custom Classic in 221FB is that it is one of the prettiest rifles I have ever owned. Shooting a nice looking rifle that also shoots 1/2 MOA is something really special.

quote:

Originally posted by subsailor74:
OK - I have to admit that one of the reasons I really like shooting my Cooper Custom Classic in 221FB is that it is one of the prettiest rifles I have ever owned. Shooting a nice looking rifle that also shoots 1/2 MOA is something really special.

Completly understandable with a beauty like that. Georgous and a real reason to be proud of it.

Finally, somebody Von Gruff, talked about forming brass. Forming your own,as was suggested is just real easy and eliminates any worry about getting cases. The original question was about a low power cartridge for range use, while I don't shoot the 221, many of my buddies do, and it is a very nice preformer. I have a Sako L461 in 222 Remington, and it is the nuts on the range or field. All that said, I also love the 22 Hornet, and since the advent of Lil Gun Powder and 35 grain V- Max bullets it is no longer a finicky animal, IMO! I have been shooting a Model 43 Winchester lately, and all the groups are under.75. Another choice you could make, is the 218 Bee, or Mashburn Bee, might work better with your extractor..

Jerry

I agree with Jerry Eden! I have been making brass for the 221 for over 30 years. I have found the best is the Mil NM cases of which I have a considerable supply thanks to the old NRA matches over in Hawaii. Form them, cut the neck, outside turn the neck with the old Marquart turner and FL size. Cases last about forever and, if you are lucky enough to have a set of the old Corbin dies and make your own bullets OR cast lead with a gas check you can shoot about as cheap as 22 LR now. I still keep my little Martini Cadet in 22 K around for the occasional stupid Blacktail.
Aloha, Mark

Subsailor, please warn us before putting up pics like that - next time, my heart may not restart.

I have a few hornets and I like them for prairie dogs because they don't overheat, they're cheap to shoot and have almost no recoil. The 243 gets used some, but it gets hot quickly and it's really loud. Recently I've been playing with a shortened 22 Spitfire. This is a 30 carbine case necked down to 22. Brass is easy to find and form. If I run the reamer in short I can duplicate the hornet case capacity (and use all the same reloading components I have for the hornets) and seat long pointy bullets out and still fit in 30 carbine magazines. Add a can and you can really wear out a dog town. In a single shot I think a plain 22 spitfire would work well. It's also small enough to put in some of the smaller receivers, like a cooper M38. A rem 700 for a 221 fireball seems like major overkill to me.



The shortened spitfire is in the middle; you can see that it's the same length as a 30 carbine and the same case capacity as the longer 22 hornet.

If someone was of the mind to build a .221 fireball...what would be the best rifle to start on?

A .222 of some sort and just set the barrel back?

Can you build a repeater on an xp-100 action?

I would get a rem 700 in 221 fireball and shoot it, before I would build a custom. Then, if I wasn't happy with the half or less MOA groups that I would probably get, I could use the action, which already has the proper length magazine, and build me a custom rifle.

Nothing wrong with the tried and true Rem 700 (except that late production is said to be very rough around the edges). However, it seems counterproductive to put the diminutive Fireball in an action large enough to hold a 300 SAUM.

Any of the small actin Sakos (L46, L461, A-II, S491, etc.) make a Cadillac of a small rifle, and although more expensive than a 700 the action cost is small compared to the custom barrel and fitting. The little Sako actions need no modification of magazine or bolt face other than fitting a barrel to them -- and they're equipped with an excellent trigger to begin with.

Another more economical choice is the little Zastava Mini Mark X. It is Sako-sized and a good little action, but is a bit less refined. It will need a trigger, which will boost its cost a bit, but the .221 Fireball I have built on one is a ringer.

CZ makes a factory 527 Fireball. I'm sure that it is accurate, like most CZ products. If you can live with the backward safety, protruding magazine, and very high scope mounting position, then it is something you might consider. It's too bad that if the factory would only make a few minor modifications the CZ could be the crown jewel of small actions on today's market.

ledvm -

How do you ascertain or describe "best"?

If you mean easiest to rebarrel, then find a Remington 700 or 722 in .222 Remington and redo it. Or setback and rechamber one of them.

If you mean classiest, then build on a mini-Mauser such as the Sako, Interarms (if you can find one for sale), older CZ such as the smallest ZKK, or any NICE single shot falling block or tilting block action.

As I prefer classic single shots for appearance, I'd prefer an original Dan'l Fraser, Remington Hepburn, Francotte Martini, or a small copy of a Winchester Hi-wall,or Stevens 44-1/2 action. ( Sorry , but I just don't like the looks of "Low-walls".

Anyway, perhaps you could be a bit more specific as to what is important to you as far as the finished rifle criteria? It will make it easier to help you.

Well I took the B78 in to the gunsmith a couple weeks ago with instruction to replace existing barrel with a new Lilja, same octagonal contour as original, 1 in 12 twist and chamber to 221 FB. Hoping we can get a barrel out of Obamaland in my life time.
Rick

Just noticed Nosler announced they will be producing 221 FB brass this year. Yahoo!!

quote:

Originally posted by Kevin Rohrer:
The round is actually more popular than the .222.

Not now and not ever.

The .221 is gimmick round. The .222 was the main varmint round and BR round for 2 decades.

posted by SR4759
"The .221 is gimmick round."

Note from Nosler Reloading Guide 6 "The 221 Fireball is ...underrated as a rifle cartridge. It has become a favourite small varmint round among the Nosler staff."
Rick

A varmint shooting buddy of mine was doing some fine work with his .221 and lead free bullets last Wed.
He also was MOA with the Fuger #1 in 22 Jet I just sold him. In this he was using light for caliber lead free bullets.
The #1 Ruger also functions well with my 22 Jet rimless . roger

I LOVE my Remington 700 Classic in 221 Fireball. When I bought it, I was looking for a 222 to compliment my father's Sako A-1 manlicher and my TC Contender. The LGS had just gotten the 700 in and it did not last long on the rack. After some good glass and adjusting the trigger, it is now <0.5 moa with good hand loads with both the Nozzler and Hornady 40gr bullets and H335.

Now I am going into the realm of loading for Lead free and will be seeing where that takes me, since my options seem to be limited. Bartsche, I'd be interested in some of the basics on bullets and powder that your amigo is using since my Barnes book is kinda limiting on recommendations.

The stable of 221's has grown to an XP-100 and a TC Contender and I enjoy them all.

221 for me, only mistake was selling mine, so now I need to build another.

quote:

Originally posted by Von Gruff:
I have made 100's of 221 cases that in turn become 20 VarTarg from 222 or 223. I shortened a 222 neck die to bring the longer brass shoulder case wall point back to the the FB length and preliminary trim. FLS and finish trim. Quick simple and an everlasting supply of FB brass.

Do you have to ream the necks?

quote:

Originally posted by rik:
Just noticed Nosler announced they will be producing 221 FB brass this year. Yahoo!!

when it retails in Canada for $1.50 per brass we'll see if you are still yahooing,,,,,

quote:

Originally posted by AfricanHunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Von Gruff:
I have made 100's of 221 cases that in turn become 20 VarTarg from 222 or 223. I shortened a 222 neck die to bring the longer brass shoulder case wall point back to the the FB length and preliminary trim. FLS and finish trim. Quick simple and an everlasting supply of FB brass.

Do you have to ream the necks?

The 20 VT chamber is designed for a no turn neck and I found that the reformed cases loaded still had min clearance in the chamber so I didn't turn the necks. Having said that all my reformed brass is for my short range loads(under 200yds) and are not high pressure rounds. The loads that run the 35gn Berger bullet to 3700fps are in FB cases and all I did with them was to turn for neck cleanup rather than for chamber needs and shoot to twice the distance of the short range loads with excellent accuracy