I got inspired to share these thoughts, based on a few opinions posted on a couple of threads on this forum...

yesterday evening, I stopped into a store called G I JOE'S here in the NW USA...I was actually looking for something simple for my son and his boyscout needs...I couldn't find it so stopping by the sporting goods counter, where about 4 guys were just Lounging about on the counter, instead of working and asked them where to find what I was looking for.. even tho they weren't doing a thing, they still couldn't go and show me, they were just trying to give me directions about 10 aisles over...

But as I was leaving some lady came up and asked one of the guys are a "varmint rifle in 17 caliber" for her husband for Christmas....

so after I found out what I was searching for, I walked back over to the gun counter just to hear what the lady (in her late 50s) was being told by these guys....

One kid ( about 22 to 25) was busy telling her about the 17 HMR... she was telling him that is what her husband has mentioned an interest in...

He tells her, all they currently have is a couple in the Savage lines, but Savage was a real 'low buck piece of junk'..... if she really wanted to order something decent for him, she should consider ordering a Ruger 77/17 or even an Anschutz...

She also said someone had told her about a Marlin... which this kid replies was another "real piece of junk'....

He would be more than happy to order her a Ruger for $700.00.... or the Anschutz for $1500.00.....

She was telling him that she did not think her husband would want her to spend that much money on a " varmint gun" for him...

Now my analysis of the kid behind the counter, is that he was a local headbanger, and definitely didn't look the type whom was born with a silver spoon in his mouth... meanwhile the lady whom was asking about it seemed to be financially pretty well off....

Well because they didn't have anything on the counter to sell her, she started to walk away, more confused than when she walked up there....

I gave her one of those " com'mere..." hand singles....

She walked over, and I told her that I had to watch what she was being told by the kid behind the counter... and said he was full of crap...

I let her know, that I owned one of the Rugers that he was trying to sell her., and she could definitely beat a $700.00 price and I could tell her 10 places in our small town area to do so...I also told her, while mine is a nice gun, I wouldn't recommend it to someone else, as it was now overpriced in my book....

I also let her know, that him saying the Marlin and the Savages being pieces of junk, was BS also... yeah, they may not be as "refined" as the Ruger or the more spendy stuff, but it had nothing to reflect on their ability to perform...

In fact, I told her, if I had to do it all over again, I'd pick up a rifle that wasn't available when I got my first 17s, and that would be the Savage, that has the stainless steel action and barrel ( heavy) with the accutrigger and the grey laminate thumbhole stock....

I told her that they would shoot circles around even the most accurate 17s, by other manufacturers....that she could also buy one locally for $299.00 and told her the places to go do so...

I also told her, if someone laid all the 17 rifles available out on a counter top and told me to pick the one I wanted for free... I'd grab that Savage any day!


It just really pissed me off that a lady is going to go out of her way to buy her husband something that nice and thoughtful for christmas... and then she is at the mercy of some sleezy dumbass overweight kid, whom is paid minimum wage plus 59 cents an hour....

acting like an expert and doesn't know shit!

I guess I take it for granted anymore.. If I was to buy something, I go in and buy exactly what I wanted before I got there....I don't need to listen to sales people anymore....

a little honesty and a little effort to know their products wouldn't hurt either...

but these stores pay shit wages they get shit employees....

I sure wish Medford Oregon would quit listening to all the anti gun environmentalists.. so we can finally get a Sportsman's Warehouse built here! In my experience, at least most of their sales people know half way what they are talking about!

I had a guy here local at a pretty nice shop somewhat scoff when I asked if he carried 375 H&H ammo. He didn't, said he could order it, but it would'nt be cheap. $45 a box for Remington "el cheapo", and even at that he whined that he'd only be makin' $5 on the deal. Guess what, he'll be the last guy in town that I will buy anything from. Guess what too, I like to share these types of experiences with all my shooting buddies. Some people just don't get it.

All too common today this story has repeated itself almost everywhere I've been. You know it's bad when it's a refreshing break to find a sales clerk who knows of what he speaks.
What is more unfortunate is that merchants seem to have forgotten, or worse yet don't care, what separates them from the "mart" stores. Without such customer service their days are numbered.
We have a local store here that thinks their direct competition is Cabellas, not the other sporting goods store across town. Their staff has said as much, and well, guess where people like me go when the store doesn't have their size?

Seafire/B17G: Woe is me and the tales I could relay in regards to the salespeople I have seen behind "the Gun counter"!
I have been an avid Gunster (Gun nut!) for 49 years now. When I was a pre-teen, I used to walk 3 miles each way to Stan Hickoks Sport Shop in Renton, Washington just to check on his stock of boys Rifles in 22 caliber.
I eventually saved up enough "bottle deposit" money to get my own 22 Rifle!
During those 49 years I have certainly been into 2,500 Gun shops of various kinds. I remeber doing 10 gunshops in one day in northern California! I married a gal once that worked at Seattle Sporting Goods - a big gunstore back in the 50's and 60's.
I have heard some whoppers!
Some were outright lies!
Others were amazing exagerations.
Most though were firmly based in stupidity and many were just bias based on who knows what motivation (kick-backs etc!).
Now to inject some positivity here! The most consistently knowledgeable, helpful and honest salesmen (gun counter folks) I have EVER run across work at Kesselrings Gun Shop near Burlington, Washington!
Now mind you I have been in Gunshops from Miami to L.A. and from Texas to the Dakotas! And many many places in between!
The new VarmintWife (30 years now!) gets miffed at me when we vacation as I always set aside a day or two to do the Gunshops where ever we are.
So be it!
Back to the BEST though!
Kesselrings Gunshop is a three generation family owned business and I have been a customer there for going on 40 years now.
I have never heard an exageration, outlandish claim, rude talk, talking down to customers or an unfair offer made to any customer of theirs or to myself!
Indeed on several occassions I have passed on cash offers they made for some gun I was turning and I later sold it for more than they offered but more often than not when they made me an offer I usually took the cash or the trade they were making.
I NEVER felt insulted at any offer they made me!
This ALONE puts them virtually in a class by themselves!
Yeah, I usually do not shop for guns at the Wal-Marts and chain stores - occassionally I do but not to often.
For the reason you illustrated mostly.
I am trying to pick out the MOST outlandish thing I have heard a gun counterman say - its hard! I have heard some many classics!
I will say this amidst all the blather and tripe that gets batted around by these types - good deals can still be found!
I remember listening to two young counterman at a gunstore in Bellevue, Washington once! They were (I honestly believe!) having a LIE TELLING CONTEST with the mostly businessmen clientele there that day! I mean one lie, distortion or exageration after another burped out of their mouths!
Meanwhile I spied a minty little Ruger Deluxe 10/22 standing in a corner behind the counter.
While one fibber was wowing the customers I asked the other "counter-liar" how much for it. He thought a second and said oh about $100.00. I looked it over and offered him $90.00 cash. Liar #1 asks liar #2 if $90.00 cash was okay and he said "yeah, I think there are some clips that go with it"! Liar #1 goes in the back and comes out with a Crown Royal bag with 3 more clips in it. I do the paper, cash them out and all the while am grinning to myself, as the team liars are really going at it - feeling rejuvenated maybe for having sold a gun for the owner!
I sold the Rifle within a month for $200.00 and the clips sold seperately for another $20.00 in "profit"!
Instead of being TOTALLY turned off (or walking out) by these novices I let them "spew their rot" and price that Deluxe Ruger - apparently thinking it was a standard model Ruger 10/22. Unfortunately that shop went out of business a year or two ago - I wonder why?
My most often used defense against "gun counter BS" is to ignore it!
The only time I interject and correct this gun counter BS is when safety issues are involved.
And believe me the older I get the more difficult it is to bite my lip and ignore the outlandishness I hear so often.
I DO not want to besmirch a whole industry or field of workers but I think any prudent shopper who does shop at a chain gun selling venue - double check any info provided them.
Especially when dealing with firearms operation and safety issues.
Seafire/B17G I hope someday you travel up "Old 99" (Highway 99 that used to run from LA to Vancouver, Canada) and you get to stop in at Kesselrings Gunshop between Burlington and Alger, Washington.
You will enjoy.
Now to your 17 HMR savage shooting rings around Ruger 17 HMR's - be careful - VERY careful in this type talk! I own a Ruger 77/17 VMBBZ that has as yet to shoot a five (5) shot group at 100 yards larger than 1.000"!
That my friend is saying something for a rimfire!
Its best 5 shot group at 100 yards measured .502"! Its average group at 100 yards is right at .640"!
If you have a 17 HMR rifle that will shoot rings around that I would like to hear about it!
I am not just basing my "offense" at your statement on my Rifle alone! I have two close friends with the exact same model Rugers and BOTH their Rifles are exceptionally accurate.
I have seen them shoot!
Yes I have seen the savage 17 HMR's shoot and they hold true to the accuracy that the 17 HMR is known for - but they did not shoot rings around my Ruger.
I am NOT saying that my Ruger is the most accurate 17 HMR Rifle ever to come down the pike - I am saying for a rimfire this Ruger is splendidly accurate.
By the way I only have a Weaver 4x16 scope on it and I have OFTEN been tempted to mount one of my Leupold 36 power BR scopes on it and take it to the range on a dead calm day to find out just HOW accurate that Ruger is. Maybe that will be a good project for me this winter.
Long live the wonderful 17 HMR!
Down with unprofessional gun counter workers!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

funny this came up at work today one of the guys knowing i'm a small dealer asked me about a particular gun which i had no experience or much knowledge. and i told him that.he told me it was nice of me to say so and with that i look for more info and he is gonna do same and i have one more new customer that would of went to dick's or bass pro i quess honesty is still the best selling tool for salesman

kudos seafire

I hate shopping anywhere where I know more than the sale staff about the product I am interested in buying! We are all victims to the corporate mentality that says 'you're either a good salesman.... or not, and a good salesman can sell anything". What a crock!

Rich
NRA Life Member
DRSS

Yeah, we have a local shop over in Medford called "Good Guys Guns"....

the name is deceiving...

the guy who owns it claims to use to work for Burris in some capacity....

However, If you go in and ask questions, he always takes down to ya... and then you don't buy something right then, he has this " fuck you" air about him....

I can't stand to do business in there, even for the smallest things, just because of his attitude... I'll pay more elsewhere, if I need something that bad, instead of getting it from him...

VG...

Yeah, I have been into Kesselrings up in Washington, and that has been a long time ago...and I usually forget most gun shops...

But those folks stand out in my mind, because of their excellent reputation... when I lived in Seattle many moons ago, I remember people would drive all the way up to Burlington just to do business with those folks...

A good gun shop, just like a good gunsmith is worth his weight in gold, in today's world...

Butchloc: thanks for the pat on the back...

cheers
seafire

I agree on the salesmen we meet in most gunstores.

Not all of them are like that however.

On a vacation in Alaska I was visiting gunshops and talking it up. In one such shop in Anchorage I had a long talk with a guy who was living the life. He had trapped 14 wolvorines last winter and had shot a brown bear with his 45-70 and a number of moose with his Ruger 77.

I had started the conversation saying that I wanted to hunt brown bears there and what rifles would they suggest. He and his other clerk gave good advice and knew what they were talking about.

I'll chime in and tell you that most people in these stores don't know their butt from a hole in the ground. The other day I was at Cabelas in Fort Worth and asked the only person at the counter that would wait on me about a particular caliber. He said he would have to go back to the gun vault and pull the gun. I told him it was not necessary as I was only inquiring and wasn't planing on buying it today. Then he wants to show me every other gun and even suggested, since I was only wanting to shoot a gun, that I go with a .50BMG. I looked at him and told him he was not acting like a "Wal-Mart clerk." He just looked at me and didn't seem to understand. I commence to tell him that most people that come in to Cabelas probably know more about guns than he did, or most other people for that matter, and he shouldn't try to impress people with his "knowledge."

My next visit was where a woman was wanting to buy a scope for a Savage 30/06 and was inquiring about a medium price scope. The guy there was trying to sell her a Swaroski, Kahles and Zeiss, and said the other scopes were junk. I finally chimed in and helped her out, much to the disbelief of the clerk, who had no clue about scopes. Lets just say she left happy.....

Fools trying to sell guns dont only work in common man stores and arent necessarily young.
talk to some of the sales people at SCI, which I dont do much anymore.
Some of the prestigeous British Makers and HartmannWeiss from Germany have sales people that give their companies discredit.
If you need to contact HartmannWeiss about particular details of their rifles, receivers, make sure you speak with Mr.Hartmann or Mr.Weiss and fuhk the rest,cause they will just ask them anyway and something may get lost in the transmission,you may as well get from the horses mouth.plus those kind of people could be selling swimming pools tomorrow.
There has always been plenty trash in society,its just that the more you have to deal with people the more you will encounter such.

Seafire, You nailed it, chain stores are filled with young skulls full of mush. Then you add the Holiday season and it gets twice as bad. You end up with the minimum wage idiots showing the ropes to the temporary Holiday idiots. Not Good.

I ran into a Holiday idiot last weekend myself. I went to the local gun shop to order a Browning ShortTrac in 300WSM. The tiny little shop was packed. I was waited on by a gentleman that I had never seen before(Holiday help). After I told him what I wanted he proceeded to fuck around on the computer. After about 10 minuts he came back and said "Nope can't get one, are supplier is out and won't be getting anymore. Browning quit making the 300WSM." Dumb ASS. Anyhow, as I paid for my bullets and powder I mentioned to the old-timer who has been there forever that it was a shame that Browning will no longer make the 300WSM. He laughed and said were the hell did you hear that? I said from that fuckin idiot over there. I left with my powder and bullets.

Don't know what happened after I left, but the following Monday I got a call from the gun shop telling me they found a rifle for me. I had to tell them "too late" I already picked one up at Gander Mt. By the way, this is the last time I buy a gun from Gander Mt., idiots.

Idiots, we are surrounded by Idiots.

quote:

Now to your 17 HMR savage shooting rings around Ruger 17 HMR's - be careful - VERY careful in this type talk! I own a Ruger 77/17 VMBBZ that has as yet to shoot a five (5) shot group at 100 yards larger than 1.000"!

VG,

I don't own a Savage in 17 HMR.. I do own a Marlin, a Handirifle and a Ruger 77/17 VMBZ ( or whatever, grey laminate, heavy barrel)....

Mine also will shoot groups of less than an inch at 100 yds, and will shoot much tighter than that with the Speer TNT loads....

However, comparing the cost of that rifle at current prices with a Savage Laminate Thumbhole ( whatever secret agent code they have for a model number) being available for $299.00... and all of its features.. I'd suggest the Savage hands down still...Rugers accuracy consistency varies a lot more than those Savages do....and the Savage having the AccuTrigger vs Pot luck with the Ruger....

My Ruger wears a plain jane 3 x 9 Weaver on it...It is an accurate rifle.. but Savage is just as accurate if not moreso, and a lot more features for half the price....

But at current costs on 17 HMR ammo.. I am not buying anymore 17 HMRs unless ammo is priced like 22 Mag ammo, at least....

And I am waiting for the 17 Fireball.....

I got my Ruger 77/17 for $459.00...locally now they are $600.00.....

the one saving grace for my Ruger is that I can also switch the barrel to a 22 Win Mag which I plan on getting one for...It will see more action with that barrel, based on ammo costs...than the 17 barrel....

30 cents a round, is what 17 HMR ammo is now running at local shops.. and about 25 cents a round at walmart...

that is too darn spendy for a rim fire, regardless of how accurate it shoots and how much range it has...

handloading has gotten me spoiled... ammo costs being lower doesn't allow me to really shoot cheaper, just a lot more often!

quote:

Originally posted by steve4102:
Seafire, You nailed it, chain stores are filled with young skulls full of mush. Then you add the Holiday season and it gets twice as bad. You end up with the minimum wage idiots showing the ropes to the temporary Holiday idiots. Not Good.

I ran into a Holiday idiot last weekend myself. I went to the local gun shop to order a Browning ShortTrac in 300WSM. The tiny little shop was packed. I was waited on by a gentleman that I had never seen before(Holiday help). After I told him what I wanted he proceeded to fuck around on the computer. After about 10 minuts he came back and said "Nope can't get one, are supplier is out and won't be getting anymore. Browning quit making the 300WSM." Dumb ASS. Anyhow, as I paid for my bullets and powder I mentioned to the old-timer who has been there forever that it was a shame that Browning will no longer make the 300WSM. He laughed and said were the hell did you hear that? I said from that fuckin idiot over there. I left with my powder and bullets.

Don't know what happened after I left, but the following Monday I got a call from the gun shop telling me they found a rifle for me. I had to tell them "too late" I already picked one up at Gander Mt. By the way, this is the last time I buy a gun from Gander Mt., idiots.

Idiots, we are surrounded by Idiots.

Steve,

I feel your pain, but after living here in Oregon since 1995, I don't miss a darn thing about the Twin Cities.. except!!!!... they now have a Cabelas or two locally, plus a couple of Sportsman's Warehouses, plus Gander Mountain, and I guess someone bought out Berger Bros in Bloomington... and what happened to Holiday Villages sporting goods counters, which always had a lot of good stuff....

Sportsman's Warehouse had planned to build a store here now, going on 7 years ago now... and the local Calif transplant Anti Gun, Anti Hunting crowd... has managed to keep it tied up in Court and having the city hold up the building license for so long, I think Sportsman's has finally said to heck with it!

The closest one we have is 200 miles away, and I heard that Cabelas, put a store in Reno, but that is 400 miles away for me.....

We have a few local shops that are okay, but after that, Walmart is it, or Bi Mart....pretty damn depressing in my book!

quote:

You nailed it, chain stores are filled with young skulls full of mush.

quote:

You end up with the minimum wage idiots showing the ropes to the temporary Holiday idiots.

quote:

He laughed and said were the hell did you hear that? I said from that fuckin idiot over there.

quote:

By the way, this is the last time I buy a gun from Gander Mt., idiots.

quote:

Idiots, we are surrounded by Idiots.

quote:

I looked at him and told him he was not acting like a "Wal-Mart clerk."

With attitudes like this, that I bet are "displayed" as you walk in, it's no wonder that you get the "idiots" that you do. Some may just not want to deal with a customer who talks down to them the whole time. Others may truly be idiots, but possibly that's because the good guys have been run off by arrogant "customers". I'm always amazed when I'm out to watch the way people treat other people, and then are somehow surprised when the person that they just abused doesn't want to bend down and kiss their feet. Truly amazing what human nature has become.

quote:

I agree on the salesmen we meet in most gunstores.

Not all of them are like that however.

He and his other clerk gave good advice and knew what they were talking about.

Yep, sometimes if you give them a chance, you really do find somebody who might not fit the pre-conceived notion.

FWIW, no, I don't work in a gun store. Or in retail period for that matter. But, about 10-12 years ago, I moved with my job. I thought that picking up a part time job in the local gun shop might be a good way to meet the local shooters. So I was at the shop one day when a lady called. She wanted a "30-06 three inch magnum" for her husband. I politely told her that I thought that maybe she had actually combined two different guns that he might be wanting. She said (rather firmly), "No, he wants a 30-06 three inch magnum". I invited her to stop by and I'd show her what we had, and that maybe it would help clear up the difference. She shouted "Why should I stop by?? You obviously don't have what I want!!" and slammed down the phone. Uh, yep, you were right lady. I *didn't* have what you want.

Not all of the idiots are on the same side of the counter....

We happen to have a very good local shop here. The owner and salesmen have no problem showing you what you want, as many different times as you want. They'll explain pros and cons, and sometimes inject a bit of their personal preference (backed by experience), without calling one item junk to try and sell a more expensive item. They don't care if you walk in on a slow afternoon, shoot the BS for an hour or two, and walk out empty-handed. They know that sooner or later you'll be back, and they'll be there to take care of you.

Seafire/B17G: At 30 cents a round that would be $15.00 per box of 50 17 HMR rounds!
I have never even heard of HMR ammo being priced that high let alone seen it.
Again I suggest the Buy Mart which is selling Hornady 17 HMR ammo for $8.99 - or just under 18 cents a shot.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Within 5 miles there are two gun shops in my neck of the woods.

One shop is employed by some extremely arrogant sales people (not just my opinion... many others have expressed the same) who "know-it-all". These people are middle-aged men who have knowledge of the product they're selling, but their attitude is very condescending not to mention their body language is screaming that you're bugging the crap out of them when all you're doing is taking up 10 minutes of their time with some very simple questions.

Another shop is employed by some younger sales people, but they are very friendly and very knowledgable. I go there alot more often. They answer all my questions with a smile. They may call me an idiot when I leave, but I would never know.

You can get more bees with honey than with vinegar.

I used to work in a Gunstore in Canada for several years. I still to this day find that alot of shooters not all, but alot are cheap as hell. They buy a gun which is usally the lost leader in sporting goods usally a cost plus Item, I am literaly talking about a mark up of 5%. Where you start to make money is ammo,sling, rings, bases.... SO the first thing a customer usally asks is "If I buy this rifle can you throw in the rings and bases or a pack of ammo". Like anything else these days it is hard to get decent employees in retail. AS how do you compete against contruction, oil companies...show up with a heart beat and steel toed boots and get $18hr If I were to pay employees $20hr to compete with construction and gas then I would have to raise prices to a level where I would be hearing alot more complaints.I am not making excuses for bad manners or dishonest salesmen but we are getting bottom of the barrel employees. So people had better do their homework first before shopping or you get what you pay for. Just as a matter of info in retail these days just to break even that means paying employees,rent,merchandise, office etc.. you have to have an overall rough mark up of 30%.

Varmintguy

So you are saying it is okay to knowingly buy something from a store where the clerk doesn't know what it is for a lot less money than it is worth.

Man I hate to even weigh in on this one...

I have been on both sides of the counter. I can tell you it isn't hard to find morons on EITHER side of the counter!

I was a manager for Sportsman's Warehouse for a few years. More specifically I was the gun manager in the hunting department. I left over what I considered intollerable changes in the way the company was conducting it's business, and some intollerable actions by my direct supervisor towards myself and other employees.

I can say from the view BEHIND the counter, as a manager, it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to find prospective employees who know much of ANYTHING about hunting, shooting, or reloading. It's extremely frustrating to look at a pile of employment applications and fight the overwhelming urge to tip the whole pile into the trash can. But, if good applicants don't apply, what can you do? You STILL have to "man the counter", so you are stuck with a pool of employees that aren't what you would hope for. When I first started with the company, we had a "Hunting Department Test" we had to take. If you didn't score a certain percentage, you weren't hired. I can tell you those days are long gone, because most applicants couldn't score 40%. So we stopped giving the test.

Then we looked for people who had customer service experience, hopefully in retail so they were used to talking to customers. It is very hard for some people to actually talk to a stranger (customer). It's not easy, especially when you have company guidelines telling you what you can pay (LOW PAY), and how many hours you can schedule into your department on any given day (which directly affects how many guys you can have on the counter at any given time). I know you have to weigh all costs in business, and labor is the single greatest expense that you have any hope of controlling. You can't do much about your storefront costs (cost of brick and mortar stores), your inventory (other than to try to keep it trim, and beat up your suppliers for lower cost), or your utilities and other expenses. But you can, at least control how much you pay for labor every month. I know you get what you pay for (sometimes), but with corporate wage guidelines, you're stuck.

I used to hope to at least find a new hire with the desire to help customers, and a desire to learn product knowledge. That's nearly impossible these days it seems. I've always said that I can teach someone anything they need to know about the job EXCEPT A WORK ETHIC! If they don't have the work ethic, there's nothing I can do with them. I used to tell my employees to tell the truth, and if they didn't know something TO SAY SO to the customer, BUT to find out for them, or come and get me or call me at home even. I would tell them that selling guns/reloading equipment & supplies/ammo is one area that you absolutely CAN'T GUESS on. If you're wrong, someone can be hurt or killed.

I used to encourage employees to take material home and read it; product brochures, ammo guides, reloading manuals, gun catalogs, videos, etc. Very few employees ever took me up on it. Yes, it was really frustrating sometimes to be stopped by an employee who'd been with us for a year or more and be asked a very basic reloading or gun question. My initial though would always be, "How is it that you don't know that by now?!" But, instead I would go with them to the customer and answer the question and make sure that any other needed info was passed along. I guess I'm still old school, but I consider it the employee's responsibility to learn their job and do it well. Sadly that doesn't happen anymore.



Now for the other side of the counter....

Whew, so many MORON customer stories....the lady who wanted the "BROWN rifle" for her husband for Christmas (she didn't know what it was, what brand, or what caliber, then got PISSED OFF that we didn't know)....the customer who wanted to argue there was no difference in "300 ammo", said "it's all the same, and any 300 ammo will work in any 300 gun." just because he didn't know which 300 he had (yes I really did try to patiently explain it to him and I even went out and showed him different 300 caliber ammo to show him the difference (he got pissed and called us all a bunch of f*cking idiots on his way out the door)....the customer who complained to my store manager that "I wouldn't sell him a gun" but didn't tell her it was because he was an out of state resident and it was against the law (in his particular case)....the guy who WOULDN'T spend the money on a reloading manual, but was trying to stuff AN OUNCE OF GUNPOWDER into a shotshell and was in to ask us questions about why the hull wouldn't close, he also told us that he sprung the action (ruined) his grandfather's Browning SUPERPOSED (!!!) by trying to shoot some of his home made shells....


I could go on for a week (longer). There are idiots and morons everywhere you go in life. Some are behind the counter, and some are in front of the counter. Neither are fun to deal with for any period of time.


AND DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON 4473 FORMS AND FOLLOWING FEDERAL DEALER'S GUIDELINES.... that would be a whole 'nuther talk show!

Ahhh, hence the term "Buyer beware". It's hard enough getting the correct order at a fast food restaurant nowadays. Unfortunately, honesty and a true work ethic aren't what they used to be for many of our new generation - I'm not sure you'd get much more if you doubled the wages.

Thankfully, many of us now have the internet, so doing at least a little research before a big purchase is easier than ever.

Congrats again to you for doing the right thing.

Seafire,

Slowpoke's comments are pretty valid.

The main gun store here in Sydney is a virtual monopoly, the service is bloody awful, but most of the staff ARE shooters and reloaders.

But, I can't cop the shit anymore, so I buy all my stuff through Robert Tobler, who is also my barrel maker. Robert does it to help me out and I don't give a shit what he charges me for that sort of stuff as he's doing me a favour.

Sales people who only get a wage never are much good. Good sales people should be rewarded for their efforts by a commission system.

Cheers,

Blair.

You may find this hard to believe, but............
When I go into my Local gunshop it is a real pleaure! The staff are friendly, knowledgable and shooters. So if you are ever in the Highlands of Scotland and in Tain go into Macleod's for a real treat. Nothing is too much trouble, you are dealt with courtesly and efficiently.

We may have, what many of our fellow shooters around the world consider to be oppressive gun laws, but it has for the most part ensured that like minded people are dealing with you in gunshops.

I wish the same could be said of all retail outlets, only last week in a major electrical chain store outlet I was spoken to, by a man who purported to be the manager, as if I was some small bothersome child. He was trying to bully me into giving up my statutory customer rights over some dud gear he had sold me. Well, I may not have been able to tell him too much about his company policy, which he kept quoting at me, but, after a long career as a police officer I was able to demonstrate to him the correct way to bully someone and quote a little law to him. He made himself look stupid in front of his staff and other customers, with hardly any help at all from me. I am convinced however that he will continue to carry on just the same and win more of such encounters than he loses.

It's people like him that I would really like to reach out to and shake warmly by the throat!

Merry Christmas

John

not all Sportsmans Warehouse people know something about guns. The other day I enquired about buying a SS TC Contender frame G2 and the employee told me that they only had them in wood.

Slowpoke Slim- I've been on both sides of the counter as well and I feel your pain. It is a experience that all gun nuts should experience from both sides...it would make for a nicer world. And I also include in the mix here trying to find qualified people to man the counters with what the company allows one to pay.

If all had to do this I expect that the gun shops would be a nicer place.

Mark D

Conger,

You're absolutely right. It's really sad too, because years ago it was a matter of pride within the company that we hired "experts" into each department. That hasn't been the case for over a year now. It's one of the things that frustrated me the most as far as changes the company was initiating. Most of the good help has left or is leaving and upper management doesn't care if they go, cause the idiots they hire now, they can get for cheaper money.

I hated to watch it happening, and yet I knew I couldn't do anything about it.

quote:

With attitudes like this, that I bet are "displayed" as you walk in, it's no wonder that you get the "idiots" that you do. Some may just not want to deal with a customer who talks down to them the whole time. Others may truly be idiots, but possibly that's because the good guys have been run off by arrogant "customers".

Cold Bore,

I can't speak intelligently for others, just myself...

however, I have more important things to do, than to spend my time going into gun depts and trying to test those behind the gun counter to see if they know their stuff or not...

Usually the customer is asking questions.. and unusally these folks can't answer them correctly...

I actually have respect for someone who will tell me he doesn't know, instead of trying to BS me...

When I go into a gun shop, I usually know what I want in the first place...

But yeah, there are as many dumb customers as there are dumb sales people..I see them at the range all the time..and they normally got talked into a Magnum and a scope with a 50mm objective...

quote:

Originally posted by Slowpoke Slim:
Conger,

You're absolutely right. It's really sad too, because years ago it was a matter of pride within the company that we hired "experts" into each department. That hasn't been the case for over a year now. It's one of the things that frustrated me the most as far as changes the company was initiating. Most of the good help has left or is leaving and upper management doesn't care if they go, cause the idiots they hire now, they can get for cheaper money.

I hated to watch it happening, and yet I knew I couldn't do anything about it.

this is a good reason why I...

1. Rebarrel a rifle, instead of trading it for a new one
2. Rely heavily on a decent gunsmith, instead of the major's customer service anymore
3. Research what I want, and go in to see if they have it or not.
4. Usually will just go with the lowest priced place, as customer service is out the window anyway in most outfits.
5. Spend a little more at the small local gunshop, because it is worth the few extra bucks to help keep the local guys afloat ( within reason)...

some of these may conflict, but it is a changing world...

like I would probably buy a 243 from Walmart...

for something more specialized, the local guy is worth the few extra bucks...

I bought a Nikon 4.5 x 14 scope with a Mil Dot not long ago... and when I picked it up, I paid an extra $15.00 to the local gunshop... but because his doors being open was worth the extra $15.00....

But a gun shop over in Medford, I know of... incorrectly called Good Guys Guns.. I wouldn't buy from them if they were less...

and lets not forget to sing the praises of Midway, Grafs, Mid South, Natchez, Lock/Stock & Barrel.... although shopping around does pay for supplies like Bullets etc..

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:

quote:

With attitudes like this, that I bet are "displayed" as you walk in, it's no wonder that you get the "idiots" that you do. Some may just not want to deal with a customer who talks down to them the whole time. Others may truly be idiots, but possibly that's because the good guys have been run off by arrogant "customers".

Cold Bore,

I can't speak intelligently for others, just myself...

however, I have more important things to do, than to spend my time going into gun depts and trying to test those behind the gun counter to see if they know their stuff or not...

Usually the customer is asking questions.. and unusally these folks can't answer them correctly...

I actually have respect for someone who will tell me he doesn't know, instead of trying to BS me...

When I go into a gun shop, I usually know what I want in the first place...

But yeah, there are as many dumb customers as there are dumb sales people..I see them at the range all the time..and they normally got talked into a Magnum and a scope with a 50mm objective...

Seafire,

Mate, I like scopes with 50mm objectives. It helps me see what I'm shooting at

seafire,

Please excuse me for not reading this whole thread.......Customer service aside, the best bang for your $$$$$ in rimfire (17HMR ect.)is CZ. For $250-$375 depending on the model you can get into an honest "lifetime" rimfire that will keep-up with rimfire guns costing 3+ times what it costs and outclasses darn near any rimfire under a grand (Win. 52 repro excluded, but it's in only .22lr and not in current prod.).

Nothing against Savage or Marlin ect., but a CZ 452/453 out-classes them.......By a fair margin too.

I f I owned a gunstore and had to hire a person to help customers, I have to hire a low wage employee as I know that the customer that walks in to buy a $800 gun will go to the next store somewhere if he thinks he can get it for $5.00 less.....go figure.

Often we get exactly what we deserve!!!!

quote:

Seafire,

Mate, I like scopes with 50mm objectives. It helps me see what I'm shooting at

Yeah Blair, but you are an Aussie....

Being peculiar is "COOL" when you guys do it!

Remember being different, is what being from "down under" is all about mate!!!!

cheers and Merry Christmas
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by Grizzly1:
seafire,

Please excuse me for not reading this whole thread.......Customer service aside, the best bang for your $$$$$ in rimfire (17HMR ect.)is CZ. For $250-$375 depending on the model you can get into an honest "lifetime" rimfire that will keep-up with rimfire guns costing 3+ times what it costs and outclasses darn near any rimfire under a grand (Win. 52 repro excluded, but it's in only .22lr and not in current prod.).

Nothing against Savage or Marlin ect., but a CZ 452/453 out-classes them.......By a fair margin too.

Griz,

I can't fault your logic here.. My personal 22 LR that I shoot, is a CZ 452.. with the 25 inch barrel and the little Mauser slide site...Paid $200.00 for it new... and I wouldn't sell it unless it was for a lot of money, and I would go right over and order me a duplicate of it...

I think the Savage with the thumbhole laminate stock does offer the best value, with the Accutrigger etc....

But if that wasn't on the scene, I'd have a CZ is I had to have a 17 HMR in life...they just were not around when I bought the Marlin and then the Ruger I have in 17 HMR....

MY 452 is getting ready to get another stock put on it, once I decide what laminate I want from Boyd's... they make laminate stocks for them, but I am caught between deciding which one of the options laminate colors ( at extra charge) I might want....

I love the rifle enough, I am looking at putting a $150.00 stock on a rifle I paid $200.00 for...

But this little rig, can do headshots pretty consistent on ground squirrels and chipmunks at 125 yrds, with Winchester 36 grain lead ammo, that you can buy at any Walmart in America....

My only bitch about it, is its little 5 round magazine.... and the spendy price for a cheap plastic 10 round magazine...

there always has to be a fly in the ointment...

Seafire, I feel exactly the same way you do! The retail sector is occupied by such a collection of incompetents these days that it just boggles the mind! If these dorks are TYPICAL of the majority of our young generation, we are indeed doomed!

Hopefully, the majority are more like the young guys and gals in the Armed Forces, but I am not convinced......

I did find one gunsmith in a nearby town who may be knolwedgeable enough, but he's one crotchety old SOB. I went into his shop exactly ONCE! I refuse to visit him again, because ONE SOB in the room at a time is enough!

However, in the same town, I did find a nice gunshop shop where the people are not only well informed, but they carry damn near everything that strange gun-nuts like me just have to have from time to time; and, if they don't have it, they WILL ACTUALLY get it for you, PDQ! Even if it is something as insignificant and with a low profit margin as 10 plastic 20-round ammo boxes.

In addition, I did locate a real gunsmith in another little nearby burg who's been building custom rifles here, in CA and also NY for 51 years now, and who has been invited to join the Custom Gunmakers Guild more than once! So far, his response has been "I'm too busy for such stuff!"

He will talk to you about what you want and guns/shooting in general; plus, he doesn't treat anyone condescendingly, regardless of how big an ignoramus they happen to be.......

Many years ago I needed 2 people to work the stockroom in a mediums sized manufacturing firm.
The test was simple as all we needed was someone who could count, add, subtract and do simple multiplication and division. 35 applicants later I had the 2 that could pass the test.

Sometimes you have to take what you can get.

Gidday Seafire,

Wadda ya mean us fellas from down unda are diffrent or peculiar. Weeze the wunz that are norml an we don spik funny neever, youse are da wunz dat do dat.

I'm a retail salesman by profesion and there are not too many around this part of the world either that take that seriously. Nowdays because everyone wants everything to be sold at cost or as close to as you can get we can only employ kids that have no drive to supply customer service.

I hate to say it but this situation is one of our own making. We have taught our kids that this life that they enjoy is theirs by right. The argument I get from them is that they didn't ask to be here, that we made them and therefore it is our responsibility to ensure that they have everything they want when they want it at little or no cost to them.

Enough ranting but I do feel we have been hung by our own petard.

Anyway mate Merry Christmas to you and your family and I look forward to the day that I can shout you a beer whether it is for Christmas or for a successful hunt here.

Happy Hunting and a very Merry Christmas to all

Hamish

I have managed a gun store and been in sales for 30 years. These people are not sales people, or at least not good ones. No matter what you are selling, you have to listen and find what will fill a person's needs. An example would be a once a year, bargain hunter. It would be doing neither you or the customer a favor to tell him a cheap scope is a POS, you need a Zeiss or Swaro, Leupold, etc. Customers are hard to find and harder to keep, so you have to sell them what they want.

Reading Seafire's account of going into a G I JOE's brought back a lot of memories. I helped open the Eugene G I JOE store back in '83. Best job I ever had, getting paid to talk about hunting and fishing everyday. Just wish the pay had been better. Saw and heard lots of funny, stupid and good stuff. I had a genuine interest in guns (had just completed the gunsmithing program at Colorado School of Trades) and had spent much of my life fishing the local waters.

I viewed my job not as selling but educating the buyers. Give them the information needed to make a good purchasing decision and let them decide, after all it is their money. Since there was no commission for sales, no urgency to sell so good customer service kept bringing people back. Not so sure it is the same now. It paid off for me as I often had customers telling me what rivers were hot for steelhead, what bait or lures to use and a few who would ask me to go with them. They just wouldn't tell me where the elk were holed up.

Funny thing is 20+ years later I work in Human Resources (long story how I got into this career) for a high tech company and see first hand the problem in hiring quality people. Some have great technical skills but can hardly get along with anyone. Others (generally the new hires for production work) seem to strive to do only enough to get by. I would not want to hire for retail people as I think the pickings would be very slim.

As many previous posters have said, find a small, locally owned gun shop and be thankful. We just got a Sportsman's Warehouse and it is like a candy store. Prices and selection on reloading and related stuff is very good. Fun to listen in to gun counter conversations and you can quickly learn who is knowledgeable and who is not, and listen to what the "not" group has to say. Of course here in SE Idaho, everyone knows just about every thing about guns, or so they think (not that I do, still lots to learn).

Thinking about it, gun shops are not the only place you have this problem. Start asking questions at your local auto parts chain store. If they can't test the part or get a trouble code, they don't know what is wrong.

Guess the best thing to do is research and be somewhat of a doubting Thomas when the sales person starts telling you what you didn't know. If nothing else, it can be entertaining

quote:

Thinking about it, gun shops are not the only place you have this problem. Start asking questions at your local auto parts chain store. If they can't test the part or get a trouble code, they don't know what is wrong.

You know this brings up a funny, but true observation....

Auto parts stores are another thing that one can relate too...

When I have to deal with a moron at the autoparts store, I always ask them for a set of spark plugs for a VW Rabbit Diesel, or a Dodge Cummins Turbo Diesel.... the manager usually gets a chuckle out of it... when the clerk stars looking in the parts books...

My wife, god bless her, goes back to the jokes her gear head brother use to pull on his sisters... send them down to the auto parts store to get some " Turn Signal Fluid".... and make sure you get some for the Left Turn Signal, not the right Turn signal....and girls who work at places like Schucks or Autozone will actually start looking for it.... when the manager gives my wife this 'dumb female' look, she just blames it on her non present husband just sent her down to get some...

yeah, it is not only the gunshops and auto industries... as Acpchuck45 points out, if you have ever been in a hiring capacity, the choice of candidates is pretty darn frustrating out there.... it exemplifies that the work ethic and drive to move oneself forward in life has gone out the window.. and one can thank our welfare "let the government take care of me" mentality in society.....

People acknowledge Japan as the best technology, quality and work ethic in the world...

Let's not forget, it was the USA that taught them all about quality, and technology after WW2 when we were trying to rebuild their economy...

An American engineer named Deming was put in charge under MacArthur to rebuild and retrain the Japanese industrial world...

It shows what we had to teach the world once upon a time....but thanks to the effect on our society, of the Hippie generation's orientation of Welfare ( communism) ( which I am from, but never was part of or ever was a hippie!), our society that has way too many attorneys ( lets sue the world, for anything we can) and accountants ( make a dime into a dollar)....

All of these mentalities, and hence we have created our own downfall...

But try to convince those that are destroying American work ethics, of doing so.. they will try to fill your head full of the eutopia that they envision in their heads...

when something fails, they just think it hasn't been ran by the right people yet, or they blame someone else for their own personal failures...

actually as shooters, we should be thankful the firearm industry hasnt' fallen to those problems as much as other industries have...

Salesmen that hurt more than they help come in all flavors.
At the store Mark Dobrenski worked at years ago was a great guy that really knew his firearms, helpful and friendly as well. His major malfunction was that he stood about 5ft 9inchs tall and weighed in at about 310, he liked large caliber boomers and he could handle em. He pushed em to every one that came in.
As we get a lot of transplants that move here to live out their dream we end up with a fair number of newbies that go to that particular store to find out where to start for hunting and fishing gear.
That guy was single handedly responsible for ruining more new, young and women hunters than any other two idiots on earth.
I help out at our local rifle range on the public sight in days we do before every hunting season to raise funds for the club. These folks would come in with brand new big booming magnums they could no more handle than the man in the moon, I knew where they been shopping. Three shots later they got a flinch for life if not a major scope cookie.
A guy came in once with his nice young wife who was going to hunt with him for the first time that year, she'd never shot anything but .22's. Real nice folks. She stood about 5 feet nothin and tipped the scales at about 90 lbs. They were packing her new ultra-light something in .338 Win Mag. The .338 is a great elk rifle but it sure don't take that to efficiently dispatch elk. She'd have been much better served with a 7MM-08 or something close she could have practiced with and been comfortable shooting.
I had a single mom corner me at hunter safety one night and tell me a gun clerk had tried to convince her that her 13 year old son needed a .300 Win mag for his first rifle, guy told her it's too light for elk really but beings how he's so small it'd have to do. The young fella ended up with a .308 thank you very much. At least I saved one of em from the dinkus.
I'd mention it the dude at the store and he'd laugh about it, what an ass. Used to piss me off even though I liked the guy in general. It was his own personal little ego trip to shoot those big stompers. You know who I'm talking about Mark?
I think it's all our responsibilities to help the new folks for the good of our sport and it's future like Searfire did with that lady. Good on ya dude!
There, I feel a lot better now I got that off my chest after all these years.