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I am not satisfied with the 100 yard groups I am getting from my rifle and reload combo. I would like to be able to find a combo that would get the groups down into the ½” - 3/4" range or at least consistent sub 1" groups. I don’t seem to have any trouble getting my M77 270 Win. to consistently shoot 3/4" groups so I don’t think it is my shooting technique or loading method. As a side note, my son and I have shot a dozen or so deer with this gun and the factory loads (gathering once-fired brass) listed in the last 8 years so I know it’s just fine for deer killin’, but I would like to improve on the factory groups with my handloads as I did when I started loading for my M77 270 Win. about 20 years ago. I selected IMR 4350 after reading favorite loads on this site and I already had some IMR 4831 since that’s my 270 powder, but I guess I will have to try another powder to realize sub MOA groups. Is the 243 more particular about powder and bullets than the 270? I have considered changing bullets to the 95 gr Nosler, but I already have two boxes of the Hornady 100 gr BTSP so I would like to use them first. I am looking for suggestions on another powder that might improve my groups with the bullets I currently have. RIFLE Ruger M77UL 243 Win w/ 20" barrel. LOAD Winchester once-fired factory load brass (from my rifle) and neck sized. CCI 200 Large Rifle primers. Powder scaled with electronic scale to spot-on for each load. Hornady 100gr BTSP # 2453 weighed and separated by .2 gr increments (e.g., 99.8-100.0) and seated just shy of the lands. POWDERS/GROUPS Factory Winchester 100gr SP load / 1 1/8 - 1 1/4" groups. I tried loadings with IMR 4350 in weights from 41.0 to 43.5 in .5 gr increments. The best was 43.0 gr / 1 - 1 1/8" groups. I tried loadings with IMR 4831 in weights from 41.0 to 43.0 in .5 gr increments. The best was 41.0 gr or 42.0 gr / 1 1/8 - 1 1/4" groups. Any suggestions on how to improve on these groups or is this as good as it is going to get with this rifle? | ||
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The common wisdom with a Ruger is to free-float the barrel. However, you can experiment with the bedding with paper or plastic shims under the barrel in front of the action or under the stock forearm tip. Make sure the stock isn't touching anywhere except at the pressure tip. Also, inspect the barrel's crown. Are the groups opening up as the barrel warms? It may be that this gun wants a different weight bullet. Try something lighter, maybe a Sierra, just to experiment. ________________________ "Every country has the government it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre | |||
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I have had better results with 95gr bullets and h4831sc max load. 1:10 twist. Do you know what twist the m77 barrel has? It may not shoot the heavy bullets. you may need a 8 or 9 twist. Are you shooting 5 shot groups or 3 shot groups? are you cleaning to much? shoot foulers before shooting for groups. make sure the action and stock are tight, check the scope screws. with all the combo for loads that you have tried there should have been something that looked promising. some rifle like a little more bullet jump back off to normal seating depth and work in to see if that makes any diffrence. The one most inportant thing in shooting good groups will be trigger pull. i dont like ruger triggers. 2 to 2 1/2 pounds is a good triger pull for me, any heavier and consistent groups go down the drain. Dave | |||
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I had major problems with my 1 in 10" twist .243. I tried 2209 (H4350) 2208 (Varget) and RE-22. 70's, 87's, 90 and 95's and Nosler and Remington 100's. Eventually tried RE-19 with 100 grain Partitions and my son took the gun to Africa and got everything he shot at. Try RE-19. | |||
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Ditto on the RL-19 for 95-100 grain. | |||
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Hey Joe, Good recommendations above, but I've not had as good a luck with any of the RL Powders that some have. Your reloading approach seems like a good method the way you are doing it. And those are some of the Powders I'd start with too. I might toss in H414, but that is because I have a bunch of it. In this size Case, I normally go with 0.3gr separation between Loads, but 0.5 should do fine. You might want to consider Benchmarking the rifle with Match Grade Bullets. I like to do that with a new rifle to see what the accuracy potential happens to be. If it won't shoot Match Grade Bullets well, with 2-3 powders, then I normally move it on in a trade. But, it might take me 2-3 years to get to that point. And I usually Seat those Match Grade Bullets 0.010" Into-the-Lands. Pressure Indications appear a bit quicker than having the Bullets Off-the-Lands, but I'm not looking for a Safe Max velocity then, just accuracy. I also use Fully Prepped Cases and Weight Sort them. There is considerable debate if this is actually helpful or not. Doesn't matter to me, it is my time to use as I want and that is what I do. Then I have the confidence that I've done everything I'm going to do with the Load to see if the rifle will shoot. All the routine things as muzzle crown, screw tightness, clean barrel, good scope, parallax adjusted, light trigger, solid shooting position, shooting at the "corner" of a Black Square, no coffee/tea shakes, shoot between heartbeats, etc. does make a difference in the end. Best of luck to you. | |||
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Joe, what you are really asking is: "How can I get sub MOA groups using 100 gr Hornady BTSP's from my Ruger Ultralight?". The short answer is that you may never get that. Not being smart here but you have two things going against you. First is that your gun just may not shoot 100 grain bullets that well. 100 grain bullets are at the top end of the 243 range. You may have to try other (lighter) bullet weights to see what your rifle shoots best. Secondly, the ultralight can be very finicky. I have one in 257 Roberts and I have a huge folder full of targets tryng to find accurate loads for it. Some UL's seem to shoot well, others (like mine) do not. It has just come back from being pillar bedded and recrowned. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Perceived wisdom with 243s that won't group a 100gr bullet is to reduce bullet weight or length. In the first instance try a flat base 100gr bullet such as a sierra prohunter and if that doesn't work then a 90gr bullet such as the nosler ballistic tip (it's a fantastic 243 bullet) or speer hot core. | |||
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Welcome to the world of trying to make a rifle do something it was never designed to do... I have said this over and over again:  the 243 Winchester was designed as a varmint round shooting light bullets. There were some riflemen that later decided the caliber would kill deer if you used a heavier bullet; one that was designed to stay together. So the 100-grain bullet was put into production... And accuracy suffers with standard 1 in 10 twist barrels. Go with a faster twist and pressures go up... So what do you do? I say either accept the fact the cartridge typically won't group 100s and 105s or go with a larger caliber. Will the 243 kill deer? Sure... just accept the limitation in accuracy. | |||
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I had the same trouble with a .243 a few years ago. It just would not shoot 100gr bullets very well except the Speer Grand Slam. RL-19 shot good groups, but the velocity was very poor. I switched to IMR7828, and things came together pretty well. Since I only had one box of Grand Slams, why I even had them to begin with I do not know, I left those loads in the box for hunting. I wanted a load that I could shoot more often. Paying the price for GS bullets made no sense. I went to the 90gr Speer Hot-Cor over RL-19 and found a real winner. That bullet is very tough as it was designed for deer use for 6mm Rem shooters. It has worked for my son on several animals. Bottom line, don't get stuck on the 100gr like I did. Move to the 90-95grn bullets and have fun. What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public. | |||
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Groups that are consistently no larger than 1.25" from a Ruger Ultralight are probably better than average. Some light sporters will do better, but you're not likely to find the holy grail of accuracy with this (very respectable and serviceable) rifle, particularly using a hunting bullet with a cannelure -- a combination not noted for accuracy. | |||
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IMR 4831 and 4064 have always been very accurate for me in the 243. The sierra 85gr bthp has been my bullet of choice. I have never shot a 243 that wouldnt shoot 3/4 inch at worst with this combo. Some people think this bullet isnt tough enough for deer. You be the judge. 44.5 grs 4831, up or down a couple of tenths.Give it a try. | |||
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i use the same bullet in my 243 with a max load of rl22 and get good groups | |||
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Where were you in '55? Methinks you need to brush up on your history of Winchester and the 243. | |||
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I once owned a really nice Sako .243, thing wasn't very accurate with 100 grain anythings, 105s107s could go anywheres, 90grains better, 80s WOW!, Tackdriver!  | |||
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You mention group sizes in your posting, but not the number of shots in each group. How many shots were in each of the groups? Don | |||
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I would advise trying a flat base cup and core bullet in your 243. Mine wouldn't shoot under 2+ inches until I went to something besides the boattail. With a 100 grain Core-lokt in front of 40 grains of IMR4350 in Winchester brass with bullets seated into the lands my Ruger would put five shots through the same hole when fully supported on heavy sandbags. Dennis Life member NRA | |||
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Luckyducker and I are thinking along the same lines here. My ex-wifes .243, now my sons shoots Sierra 100 grain flat base bullets (Prohunters) extremely well. The load is 41 Grains of IMR-4350, CCI primers, WW cases and just barely shy of the lands. In a 20" barreled .243 it can print .5" groups. I think you may have 2 seperate issues that are inhibiting small groups: play with seating depth and try shorter bullets somewhere in that combo you should ring out some good accuracy. Most .243's I've been around would shoot 100 grain Sierra's and IMR-4350 but I must admit I haven't loaded for a lot of them. | |||
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Try a faster burning powder I use aa2015 in my 220 swift and 358 win with stellar results \with bullets ranging from 55 to 250 gr in given cal/ the slower powders work better in longer barrels | |||
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Short barrels use fast powders, and long barrels use slow powders. That's a common myth that has been in circulation longer than I have been alive. Think about it, without getting into details, if a bullet gets to 2800fps in a 20" barrel with a fast burning powder, how fast is that bullet going in a 24" barrel at the 20" mark with a slower powder? Do you really think there is some sort of magical explosion in the last few inches of barrel? What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public. | |||
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Thanks to everyone for your suggestions. To answer a few of the quetions: - 3-shot groups w/ barrel allowed to cool between groups. - Clean barrel before sessions. I probaly clean my guns too much, at minimum once a year after 10-20 shots per year (except when I'm having to shoot all these groups) w/ Sweets. - Already had a trigger job done, it's good. - All screws are tight. - Never tried this so I just ran a dollar bill under the barrel and it will fit between the barrel and stock from the front of the scope out to about 1/2" shy of the dark tip cover, about 6" total of free barrel. - Don't relly know what to look for on the crown other than wear and I don't see any and there isn't any blueing worn off. - Not sure what the rate of twist is on this gun. - Bullet seating depth is just a little longer that the factory now. I don't have a loaded round to measure right now but I was suprised that I had very little room to play with on this adjustment. Is this normal for 243's? I know I may not get this UL 20" barrel to group better than the 1-1 1/8" groups I got w/ 43.0 gr of IMR4350 and Hor 100 gr BTSP but I will try a few of your suggestions to see if I can't shrink them a little more. Of course, this set-up is perfectly fine for most of my shooting (deer, hogs, coyotes, etc.) so even if I don't I probably won't be any worse off when hunting. Thanks again for all the info. | |||
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My 20" Win M70 Compact shoots Barnes 85gr. TSX bullets under 1" all day. I have great luck with these bullets in all weights and calibers. I haven't used these on deer, but my son took a gazelle and I took am impala with it two years ago. Recovered bullets looked like an ad for Barnes. I haven't tried the TTSX bullets but I will. Polymer tip should promote expansion. Some have complained about TSX expansion failures. Tanzania in 2006! Had 141 posts on prior forum as citori3. | |||
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I have loaded for 2 different 243's. A Ruger No1, and a Remington Model 7 [18"bbl]. These load was developed in the No1, and when I later got the M7 they shot so good in it that I never tried anything else. Powder is IMR 4350 Load number one is 40 grains with the Sierra 100gr Spitzer, or the 95gr Nosler partition. Load number 2 was used when we were hunting in Colorado or Wyoming. Load 2 was 42 gr of IMR 4350 with the same bullets as above. All of these loads shot very well and were tested on paper to 300 yards. They killed whitetail and mule deer and antelope as well as ANY caliber I have shot them with. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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I have a Ruger M77 .243 with a bull barrel and I could not get it to shoot 100 grain bullets well--OK, but not sub-MOA. I tried 75 grain Hornady V-Maxs and it shot them great. I have since found that it will shoot everything from 58 grain V-Maxs to Speer 80 grains with superb accuracy. I am presently using Varget powder. I just can't get it to shoot 90 or 100 brain bullets with sub-MOA accuracy. Red C. Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion. | |||
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my remington 243 won't shoot anything over 75 grainers worth a darn. it really does like 60 grain sierra hollow points. really likes them. great on groundhogs. did take a deer with 100 grain hornadys a few years ago, lucky shot at a deer on the move. don't think i will ever take it deer hunting again. confidence issue. try something with less weight. either a 58 grain hornady or the aforementioned sierras. i think the groups you are getting will make for a deer getting machine, but for target work, you might want to try something lighter. | |||
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Whats wrong with having groups that are 1 1/8 to 1/14 inches? FS | |||
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If your gun just doesn't "like" the bullet, there's nothing you can do to really get accuracy. If I were you the first thing I would do is this: 1. Take your existing "best" grouping load and load 12 rounds at that charge weight but load 3 with the bullet on the lands, the next 3 .020" off the lands, the next 3 .040" off and the last .060" off. If you don't know how to measure where the lands are (Max OAL) let me know. It's easy. 2. Shoot them at 4 different targets in a round robin fashion (fire 1 shell of group one at the first target, next, 1 shell of group 2 at the next etc. until you have shot all the shells). MAKE SURE YOU SHOOT THE SAME LOADS AT THE DESIGNATED TARGET FOR THOSE LOADS. The reason to do it this way instead of firing all three at one target, then the next 3.... is to evenly distribute and error from barrel fouling among all the targets. 3. If you don't get a good group from one of the four seating depth tests I would try this with another bullet known for accuracy. If you do, you can then tune it more with minute changes in seating depth (.005") or small charge weight changes (.3 grains). | |||
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Guess I must have gotten lucky with all of the three I own, they will all shoot under 1/2 MOA with several weights including the 100grs in several makes. One is a Win Mod. 70, one a Sako Hunter, like a friends wife and Aunt use which also shoot the 100gr bullets tighter than most can hold, and my last is a Remington pump which loves the 100 and 105gr round noses. As to the original post, sounds like you have a pressure spot with your stock if I read your last reply correstly. This could be what is causing some of your issues. Personally I would try using something like H-4350 instead of the Imr. It is a tad slower, and will change the harmonics some which might just do the trick. Another couple of powders I have had good luck with are IMR-3031, Accurate Arms 3100 and 4350, and just this past weekend Hogdgon Hybrid 100. IF you still get the same results with other powders or even other bullets I would suggest getting the spot on the stock removed to allow the barrel to completely float. As to the lighter bullets, well that's another choice as well. however don't let anyone tell you that a .243 will not shoot a 100gr bullet. That is simply BS. I have been around way too many of them that were tack drivers with the various makes of 100gr bullets out there. If it uses a 1-10 or faster twist it will handle 100gr bullets easily. Some might not have gotten their particular rifle to shoot a particular bullet and powder combo, but that don't mean that it is inherent of the caliber nor bullet weight. Here is a work up for a 100gr Nosler Solid Base from last weekend, looked to be shooting decent for just adjusting the powder charge,  Bottom left and center were final load, different primers. All right side targets were for initial site in and fouling shots. Oh and the high tech loading bench,  Did find that with shots 3&4 the barrel rubbed against the fore end and the stock needs to be relieved a bit. But overall I guess I will live with those poor 100gr groups. Mike / Tx | |||
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I would lean towards H414, but the main problem is likely the 77UL. It is a very light barreled rifle, which may make it finicky. First I would shoot what you have and make sure you allow three minutes between shots and see if your groups improve. I would also recommend free floating the barrel on a Ruger, fix the trigger if it hasn't been done. RL19 is an excellent choice as well, but I have a feeling it is a rifle problem mostly caused by the extreme light weight barrel. The .243 is normally pretty forgiving and shoots well period. A shot not taken is always a miss | |||
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I don't think it is reasonable to expect one-hole groups from an ultralight barrel. 1", maybe! "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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Ive shot a couple of dumptruck loads of deer with 6mm bullets. Try going to an 85 gr. sierra bthp.This bullet combined with the velocities you will encounter in your 243, it is a lethal deer round. My brother and my nephew both use this combo and wouldnt trade it for any other round! As for accuracy the lightweight Rugers that i have tinkered with just would not shoot well.My opinion is that to become a lightweight, you have to reduce finished barrel diameters.This causes extreme barrel whip which has an adverse effect on accuracy. | |||
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Try putting a shim under the front of the action to get the barrel off the pressure point on the stock. Doing this will free float the barrel. If your groups improve, then sand off the pressure point. I did it to my M77mkII and it helped. | |||
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Lads, Just uncrated a brand new Ruger 77 MKII in 243. Mounted a Leupold 3 X 9 and headed for the back porch w/20rnds of freshly loaded as follows (100gr Speer fbsp over 44gr of H4831 and a CCI LRP - straight out of Ken Warner's Pet Loads - once fired in another gun, trimmed to length and no crimp). Haven't got the Chrony set up yet. Now... your mileage may vary, but, after bore sighting at 30yds and confirming "on-paper and close to X" I nailed a larger target to the 100yd stump and shot groups to tweak the lass in. The final 3 shots were 1.5" all were 3 shot groups w/2 rnds at 0.5" and 1 "flyer" (never the same in succession). The weather was cool, 35 far but the winds in the woods were gusty and unpredictable. Rest was stable, but not rock solid. This is pretty close to deer hunting conditions where I can establish a good rest. The loads "felt" hot - but... this is my first experience w/this rifle and load. No outward signs of pressure. This seemed to be a good starting point, so I'm going to try reducing the load by 1gr and trying again. All I have at present are 100gr bullets of differing configurations which I plan to use for deer hunting. The only "varmints" up here worthy of such a caliber are coyotes, and they are the size of a small deer!!! CHRIS, if you read this, is your rifle stocked in wood or plastic??? Mine is plastic. Another great discussion gents!! I'll reread your comments before trying other loads, but am encouraged by my initial results. I know what I've contributed here isn't scientifically significant, but I hope it adds to the general body of knowledge on this cartridge. Mike Si vis pacem... parabellum | |||
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Here's a formula that consistantly give me .5moa or better groups in my model 99 Savage and I was lucky, took no time at all to work up. 243 Win, 4064=37g, HORNADY 100 g SP, primer=WLR, Brass=RP, cut length=2.035, and COL=2.615. Give it a try what do you got to loose? | |||
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43.0 grains of 4350 seems a bit hot with 100 grain bullets to me. Leftists are intellectually vacant, but there is no greater pleasure than tormenting the irrational. | |||
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That doesn't seem all that bad to me. Can't believe you would have any trouble in the fields with that accuracy. | |||
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Joe, Have you rolled your ammo on a smooth flat surface to check for run out? Do this and see if you can see any wobble. If you do can the neck sizing and FL size setting your shoulder back only .000 to .002. That will improve the mechanical alignment of your bullets. You use of 4350 should give decent accuracy of the run out is not excessive. | |||
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Some other thoughts: Are you careful with the overall loaded length? I found some .243 are pickier than others. Great all around load that I made for the kids was: Win case, Fed 210M, 37.0 IMR- 4064, COL 2.68, trim length 2.04. Excellent accuracy for us in several rifles (your mileage may vary  )The 105 RN Speers would never group as well , but a good load nonetheless was: Win case, 210M, 41.0gr. of IMR -4350, same trim length, COL 2.60. It kept life simple by not specifically loading for each rifle. DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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