I've been sorely disappointed in the performance I've gotten every time I've tried Hodgdon Lilgun in any of my Hornets. Considering how many people sing its praises I just couldn't figure why I've gone through nearly a pound of powder trying nearly every bullet and primer combination with always the same result: Relatively high but extremely variable velocities.

I decided to give it just one more go-round and bought a new pound of Lilgun powder this week. I had thoroughly tested the first lot of Lilgun and found that, contrary to legend, it gave somewhat higher and a bit more consistent velocity with SR primers than the vaunted SP primers. But velocity spreads within a five, or even three round string, were usually more than 100 fps, sometimes a lot more.

As a trial I loaded five rounds with both the old lot of Lilgun and the new lot. The recipe was 13.1 grains of powder, CCI 400 primer, once-fired neck-sized RP Nickel brass, and a Hornady 40 grain V-Max loaded to the maximum length (about 1.86") that would function in my Kimber 82 magazine.

I fired both sets at a 200 yard target with little wind through the screens of an Oehler Model 35 chronograph (at about 10 feet instrumental distance). Here are the results:

Original lot of powder: Hi, 2884 fps, Low 2761, Av. 2814, ES 123, SD 44, group 2.25".

"New" lot of powder: Hi 2876, Low 2837, Av. 2861, ES 39, SD 16, group 1.14".

As you can see, the "new" lot of powder was MUCH more consistent, showed a very good standard velocity deviation, and shot a group half the size of the "old" lot. (By the way, the "old" lot was only about three years old.) Since I was using only an 8X scope at 200 yards, I had no idea what the groups looked like with either batch of ammunition until after shooting both groups, therefore there was no "shooter prejudice" introduced.

I've seen many complain on this board about the performance of Lilgun in their Hornets while others have had such a good experience they'll almost fight anyone who says otherwise. Now it seems that it all depends on which lot of powder which shooter got!

Footnote: 13.1 grains of Lilgun is about all that I can comfortably get into these neck-sized cases. The same volumetric charge of a favorite of mine, AA 1680, weighs 14.0 grains and yields about 2700 fps in this particular rifle (higher in some others.) The AA1680 load is very accurate, but if Lilgun will yield a CONSISTENT velocity increase of 150 fps or so it is certainly an attractive alternative.

I have used Lil Gun in my hornets for quite a few years. My load is-
Win brass
13.2 grains Lil Gun
Fed small pistol primer
Berger 40 HP ( can't get the plastic tip bullets through clips on my anschutz and Kimber 82.

I have not tested velocity variation like you have. But I consistently shoot 3/4" groups with both my hornets, so thats good enough for me.

As I have posted before, in my Hornet, the two biggest improvements I got in accuracy was switching to Rem 6 1/2 primers, and seating my bullets long, to just off the rifling in my single shot.

Doing those two things cut my groups by more than half, and yes, I am using Lil-Gun.

I have never chronographed my load, but when I get 5 shots tearing through the same hole at 100 yards I could care less what the velocity, or sd, or es is. For me the Hornet isn't a long range cartridge, 100 to 200 yards max is all I would shoot it at anyway.

My load is 12.5 grs under a Hornady 40 gr Vmax, seated out to 1.900". I don't have a magazine to contend with, as mine is a single shot Contender.

I'm not interested in fighting over it either, each gun is an individual, and I fully realize there are guns out there that will not shoot my particular recipe worth beans. Such is reloading...

quote:

Originally posted by Slowpoke Slim:
I have never chronographed my load, but when I get 5 shots tearing through the same hole at 100 yards I could care less what the velocity, or sd, or es is. For me the Hornet isn't a long range cartridge, 100 to 200 yards max is all I would shoot it at anyway.

Slowpoke: I pretty much agree. The Hornet is for Hornet speeds and Hornet ranges with Hornet recoil and low noise; if I want more I pick up one of the other dozen centerfire 22's in my arsenal.

As far as printing a single hole at 100 yards, it's easier to do if all of your shots are traveling reasonably close to the same speed. As the range increases to 200 yards (about the practical limit of the Hornet), shot dispersion due to velocity variation increases. That shows up in the Hornet groups I've shot with my "original" lot of Lilgun.

I'm really pleased to find that Lilgun can do the great job that others have spoken of. On the other hand, I'm disappointed that Hodgdon, or its supplier for this powder, doesn't do a better job of quality control so that I don't have to worry whether I'm going to get a "good" can or a "bad" can of Lilgun next time. However, with a full pound of "good" Lilgun to work with, that's more than 500 Hornet shots down the road, so no need to worry about it now.

By the way, I had some bowling pins set up at 380 yards and thought I'd try the Hornet on those. It will bring a grin to your face when you line up on a bowling pin, fire while holding a pin-height high, then watch for what seems like an eternity until the pin lazily tumbles over. No, the Hornet isn't a 400 yard gun by any stretch of the imagination, but with the slick little V-Max it will reach out a lot further than I would have thought.

I ran another check varying the primers and using both a Kimber 82 and a BRNO 465 with the "new" lot of Lilgun. Both CCI 400 and WW WSR small rifle primers bested the WW WSP primers in terms of both speed and consistency of velocity, but only by a little. The rifle primers averaged about 18 fps faster than the pistol primer, and less SD by just a hair.

The BRNO averaged 55 fps more than the Kimber with all loads combined. The barrels are about the same length, so it is one of those vagaries between a rifle built in Czechoslovakia in 1949 as compared to one built in Oregon in the 1980's. Both grouped the 40 grain V-Max extremely well. Groups fired with each gun were shot on identical targets and averaged about .80". However, if all groups with version of ammunition were consolidated into a single group, they would not have spanned more than an inch combined (100 yard target.)

Try more powder. Fill the case then compress the powder to seating depth then add the rest and compress again. I'm putting 13.7grs under a 55gr bullet in R-P cases but my rifle has a large chamber and that does not quite fill the case but needs compressing just the same or the bullet pops back out - I have zero neck tension. Mine would be the old lot of Lil'Gun. I use Federal SM primers. It's hard to measure accuracy because the durn thing is so wind sensitive. I know this because at 200m the bullet was rising! I was shooting down a gully with a bluff at the end with a strong wind from behind.

That's a mighty strong updraft to overcome gravity. But I suppose it can happen. After all, tornadoes in Kansas sometimes lift entire houses off of their foundations.

Interesting, about the 'old' v. 'new' can of Lilgun.

I also just bought a new jar of Lilgun, and noticed the groups opened up a bit. I made up new loads, using Rem and Win brass, Federal SPM, CCI500, and Rem 71/2 primers, using a Speer 45gr Hornet bullet.

To my surprise, the Win brass/Rem 71/2 primer combo shot great, better than any small pistol primer. Winchester brass shot the best, with all load combo's.

No Chrony readings, as I shot mine several weeks ago.

I shoot the Hornady .224 V-Max bullets with a stiff load of WW296 in a neck sized case only from my CZ 527 and it shoots so exceptionally well that I've never cared to try another powder after using that load.

I purchased an Anschutz 1730 Meister Grade Hornet just about the time Lil'Gun came out. It is an amazingly accurate rifle and belies all the old "Hornets are inaccurate" stories I'd heard for years. Lil'Gun is the only powder it's had in it so far.
My rifle shows a definite preference for WW cases and the load I settled on is 13.3 grain of Lil'Gun in that WW case with a WSR primer pushing a 40 grain V-Max seated out to far to fit the magazine at 3,000ish FPS.
This spring on another web site a friend was concerned that his .17 Ackley Hornet using Lil'Gun and shooting rounds loaded 3 1/2 years ago was suddenly spraying rounds all over , he was conviced it was the Lil'Gun. As I had at that time almost 500 rounds loaded 11 years ago for my Hornet that concerned me so I hotfooted it to the range to test those 11 year old Lil'Gun loads.
First I shot a 5 shot group at 50 yards to see how much the point of impact might have changed since the last time I shot it. Here is the first 5 shot group shot at 50.



I then adjusted the sights a bit and moved my target to a 100 and shot this 3 shot group.



The next couple months were spent shooting gophers with those 11 year old Lil'Gun loads.



Does that mean I think that all .22 Hornets are going to like that load? No! Mine however sure does as have 2 CZ's and an Anschutz Exemplar handgun I loaded the exact same load for as well as two K-Hornets both a Cooper and a re-chambered CZ 527 shooting different loads of course but using the same components.
They like what they like as we all know.
When it comes to those big velocity swings which Lil'Gun does indeed provide, I'm about half way into my third 8 pounder of the stuff now and all 3 lots have shown large swings. My take is a bit different than most on the big spreads however, I don't care . Before ya label me completely crazy (which might well be the truth) I'll tell ya why. I never try to make the venerable old Hornet perform like a .221 Fireball. The 3,000ish FPS I get outta mine is way more than the Hornet was ever designed to do anyway and it tickles me pink as is. That kinda velocity with a 40 grain V-Max make it a 250 to 275ish yard rifle tops, at least in my hands.
So, using the 275 yard maximum distance with the rifle sighted in for 200 yards at 3,000 FPS my ballistic program it shows it is shooting 1.95 inch high at 100, -6.29 low at 275 yards and at 275 with a 10 mile cross wind it drifts 13.13 inches.
If I leave all else the same and change the velocity to 2,900FPS to represent one a those 100FPS swings it would have to shoot 2.17 high at a 100 for that 200 yard zero or .21 inch higher at 100, it would be 6.87 low at 275 yards or have .58 inch more drop and in that same 10 MPH cross wind it would drift 13.87 inch or .74 inch more drift than the 100FPS faster load. All of that at what for me at least is the end of the earth in the performance range of the Hornet shooting gophers and such.
If I was loading Lil'Gun into a round that was an effective 500 yard p-dog popper those 100FPS swings would cause me not to use it due to it's weird characteristics. At the higher velocities and greater distances it would make for significant effect and difficult to figure variables. At Hornet and K-Hornet distances however I just don't notice it as a problem, especially in light of what I consider a fast velocity and fantastic accuracy in that dinky little Hornet case.
Just my personal opinions and others mileage may vary.

Sorry this is so long !! Can't sleep and it's to dark to shoot so I'm just comparing notes not pushing what I like on others that have a different opinion. As I said, they like what they like!

It is so much fun getting those performance levels out of a hornet. Your rifle is shooting ridiculously accurate! The hornet is an accurate cartridge, it's just that some rifles aren't built too good.

You don't say what your rifle's bore is but your bullets would be .224. My Hornet has a .223 (Anschutz) groove and shoots .224 55gr pretty good. I don't know what velocity deviation I get but it doesn't seem much. But then I really stoke that little case. I rely on the heavier bullet and compressed powder for consistent burn. And that's what I'm getting at. More powder and a heavier bullet compensates for lack of neck tension. The beauty of 55gr bullets is they are so much cheaper (there are better quality ones too).

Give Ramshot Enforcer a try, much better than Lil Gun IMO. I can hit 3000fps with 10.6gr of it in a 22" barrel with the 40gr Vmax in my 22K Short. I think you'll be pleased. Adam

My hornet shoots so well with 13 grs. of Lil'gun and the 35gr. v-max that I don't look any farther. We've taken hundreds of prairie rats with it. Probably my most "fun" gun.

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
My hornet shoots so well with 13 grs. of Lil'gun and the 35gr. v-max that I don't look any farther. We've taken hundreds of prairie rats with it. Probably my most "fun" gun.

This is the most accurate load I ever found for my hornet as well. It's a 1949 BRNO!

quote:

Originally posted by 308Sako:

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
My hornet shoots so well with 13 grs. of Lil'gun and the 35gr. v-max that I don't look any farther. We've taken hundreds of prairie rats with it. Probably my most "fun" gun.

This is the most accurate load I ever found for my hornet as well. It's a 1949 BRNO!

I also have a 1949 vintage BRNO Hornet (ZKW 465). Must have been a great year. I grin every time I touch off a shot with its set trigger by applying around 5 ounces of pressure . It rivals and sometimes exceeds my Kimbers in accuracy and is a bit easier to shoot well due to the fine set trigger. It does exceedingly well with the new Nosler 40 grain tipped Varmageddon -- even with my older lot of velocity-excursing Lil Gun. It also does well with AA1680 and I'm sure will do well with the new lot of Lil Gun, but I have enough ammunition already loaded for it that it will be awhile before I find out.

I'm shooting about 13 grains of Lil Gun behind a Hornady 50 gr SPSX. I had to lengthen the mag in my CZ 527 but it too will shoot tiny little groups.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:
I had to lengthen the mag in my CZ 527 but it too will shoot tiny little groups.

Yeah, I see no reason that they should make the magazine as short as they do. I have a BRNO Fox .22 Hornet which is the forerunner of and almost identical to the CZ 527. I think they use the same magazine. Did you simply remove the block at the rear of the magazine or did it require some other alteration?

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:
I had to lengthen the mag in my CZ 527 but it too will shoot tiny little groups.

Yeah, I see no reason that they should make the magazine as short as they do. I have a BRNO Fox .22 Hornet which is the forerunner of and almost identical to the CZ 527. I think they use the same magazine. Did you simply remove the block at the rear of the magazine or did it require some other alteration?

I removed the block, I seem to remember it being at the front but I may be mistaken. In any event, I removed it, trimmed it, and reinstalled it. I was worried that the follower would tip too much if I simply removed it. Works flawlessly. I also didn't remove it completely to avoid the temptation to make a .223 out of it. I already have several 223's and if I need anything heavier than a 50 gr or faster then I'll grab the .223.

The alteration is very easy as the block was plastic and as I recall held in place by pins which are easily drifted out.

The tipped 40 grainers can be too long for the original magazine too.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:
I removed the block, I seem to remember it being at the front but I may be mistaken. In any event, I removed it, trimmed it, and reinstalled it. I was worried that the follower would tip too much if I simply removed it. Works flawlessly. I also didn't remove it completely to avoid the temptation to make a .223 out of it. I already have several 223's and if I need anything heavier than a 50 gr or faster then I'll grab the .223.

The alteration is very easy as the block was plastic and as I recall held in place by pins which are easily drifted out.

The tipped 40 grainers can be too long for the original magazine too.

Thanks for the description. Like you, I was afraid that the shorter follower would be a problem. Glad to have your advice to only trim the block rather than get rid of it. Just giving the magazine another .05-.10 inch would be a big help. The chamber seems to have ample leade to accommodate the longer-seated bullets.

And I absolutely agree that if you want more velocity than the Hornet offers at its modest pressures and with its small case you should simply move to one of dozens of larger .22 centerfires. I have about 10 larger .22 centerfire rifles than my Hornets, ranging from .221 up through .22-250, so why would I want to try to make my Hornets into Mach III rifles?

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:
I removed the block, I seem to remember it being at the front but I may be mistaken. In any event, I removed it, trimmed it, and reinstalled it. I was worried that the follower would tip too much if I simply removed it. Works flawlessly. I also didn't remove it completely to avoid the temptation to make a .223 out of it. I already have several 223's and if I need anything heavier than a 50 gr or faster then I'll grab the .223.

The alteration is very easy as the block was plastic and as I recall held in place by pins which are easily drifted out.

The tipped 40 grainers can be too long for the original magazine too.

Thanks for the description. Like you, I was afraid that the shorter follower would be a problem. Glad to have your advice to only trim the block rather than get rid of it. Just giving the magazine another .05-.10 inch would be a big help. The chamber seems to have ample leade to accommodate the longer-seated bullets.

And I absolutely agree that if you want more velocity than the Hornet offers at its modest pressures and with its small case you should simply move to one of dozens of larger .22 centerfires. I have about 10 larger .22 centerfire rifles than my Hornets, ranging from .221 up through .22-250, so why would I want to try to make my Hornets into Mach III rifles?

I've done the same thing to my magazine. Personally the one thing I don't like about my CZ is that magazine. Mine isn't a smooth feeding system and yes I know some of the reason is the rimmed Hornet case. My magazine is also kind of hard to get out of the rifle.

smokin

I have never cared for loading CZ hornet mags so I got a couple of the single shot followers from Calhoon. Just drop in the loaded round and close the bolt simply ,easy and cheap. FS

quote:

nd I absolutely agree that if you want more velocity than the Hornet offers at its

For more velocity you could sent your CZ or another Hornet to Calhoon and have one his 19 Calhoon barrels installed. The one I have is a CZ that came from the Calhoon shop in Montana. Great velocity with 14.7 gr of AA 1680 and the Calhoon 28gr bullet. FS

quote:

Originally posted by Fasteel:
smokin

I have never cared for loading CZ hornet mags so I got a couple of the single shot followers from Calhoon. Just drop in the loaded round and close the bolt simply ,easy and cheap. FS

Just a question re the single loading.

The extractor is a Mauser controlled feed type (or it is on my CZ 527 223). Do you have any problems using it as a push feed?

I remember some guys at a range who were trying to single load a Brno Fox and having huge problems, which went away after they put the rounds into the mag.

I have one of the single shot followers in my 527 that Fasteel talks about and I have never had a problem feeding or extracting.

quote:

Originally posted by akpls:
I have one of the single shot followers in my 527 that Fasteel talks about and I have never had a problem feeding or extracting.

I have three different magazines and none has given me a lick of trouble.

quote:

Originally posted by Bren7X64:
Just a question re the single loading.

The extractor is a Mauser controlled feed type (or it is on my CZ 527 223). Do you have any problems using it as a push feed?

I remember some guys at a range who were trying to single load a Brno Fox and having huge problems, which went away after they put the rounds into the mag.

Both my BRNO ZKW 465 and BRNO Fox feed just fine when single loaded, but it is true that unless the front edge of the extractor is properly beveled so that it will snap over the rim, a Mauser-type extractor can give you problems when single-loading. The only problem I have single-loading my BRNO's is that since it is a front-locking action the chamber is pretty deep inside the receiver ring. The tiny Hornet chamber is sometimes "hard to hit" with the nose of the single-loaded cartridge and it takes a bit of fumbling to get it in there. By comparison, my Kimbers are rear-locking, therefore the chamber rim is right there at the actin opening and easy to guide a round into.

Had mixed result with Lil Gun as well. too temperamental i would say

Hi Stonecreek and every one here,
can someone of you help me giving an explication on leade word? I already had some difficulties in translating it in Italian in a correct way.
Thank you very much in advance

Stefano, you've "opened a can of worms " !

The whole subject of leade,throat, freebore involves different spellings, different definitions !
If you have a long day with nothing else to do then research it .Besides the Italians may call it something else with their own definitions .

Stefano,

In short, "leade" is the area of the chamber-barrel just forward of the case mouth where the transition occurs from smooth chamber to rifled bore. On some rifles there is virtually no distance from the case mouth to where the riflings begin, meaning a very short leade. On others, there is more distance (as much as 12mm or sometimes even more). This is sometimes called "freebore", or on area which is the diameter of the grooves, but smooth with no rifling.

On rifles with very short leade it may not be possible to seat the bullet out longer than standard since it will jam in the riflings (lands). Longer leade allows a bullet to be seated out further.

Hope this helps.

TANK YOU again
FREEBORE Something made me suspect that this was the other possible definition.

Generally speaking, when a definition in a different language, normally in English, is more syntehtic than in Italian we use the international definition.

Freebore 0 for example is a well known concept taken by Bench Rest.

Thank you again

Guess everyone has forgotten good old 2400, not quite so old H110 and Sierra 45 gr Hornet bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:
Guess everyone has forgotten good old 2400, not quite so old H110 and Sierra 45 gr Hornet bullets.

No, just found that Lil Gun seems to provide higher velocities and better accuracy at the same prssures.

Never had the possiility to use and test Lil Gun, but maybbe in the next future it could br possible for me to get 2 cans of it.

Actually the best load I tested was using IMR 4198 and 45 grs bullet, in an Anshutz 1433 22H inproved to 22K-Hornet.

I found a box of 40 grs bullets.

Any suggestion?

13g LiLGun with a 50gr V Max works great on coyotes and has turned into my go to calling gun. The 40gr Sierra Hornet bullet with a case full of LiL Gun works well too.

I finally chronographed my hornet loads; 2740fps with a 55gr bullet over 13.7gr Lil'Gun in R-P cases. Case life indefinite (unless I lose them in the long grass).

Since I no longer use the hornet for hunting feral goats, I should really switch to the very accurate Sierra 50gr which would reach 3000fps. For me seating longer than the magazine limitation would shorten the 'bearing' area in the case mouth which I think is needed for accurate bullet alignment but if not needed so much then more case capacity can only give me higher velocity. Why more velocity? For better wind bucking and longer flat shooting range for rabbits. I don't have another 22 center-fire. However, I have so many 55 grainers that need to get used up first.

Just a point to note; the modern hornet is not limited in chamber pressure. Stoke it! They are built on actions that also chamber the 223. Mine also chamber the 222 but even so, the case base area is smaller, so gives less bolt thrust.
Also, try pre-compressing the powder (a lot) and if there is free space under the bullet then add more powder until it compresses well (meaning that it stays there) and still allows the bullet to actually seat on the powder. As always - work up slowly. One more thing - one cannot load a k-hornet as hot with Lil'Gun as the standard hornet. No need to change anything if the velocity spread is not an issue though.

I once got a range pick-up Winchester case mixed in and my load opened the primer pocket!

quote:

Just a point to note; the modern hornet is not limited in chamber pressure. Stoke it!

The strength of the actions on which Hornets are built is not and has never been the limiting factor in regard to pressure. Almost any action is far stronger than the brass case. Hornet cases, even the most modern ones, are much thinner than cases like the .222 series and will fail at much lower pressures. By fail, I mean either exhibit head expansion great enough that new primers will not stay seated, or worse, blow out the sidewall just above the rim. Such a blow out can wreck a gun, not to mention the damage it may do the person holding the gun at the time.

Use and enjoy a Hornet the way it was designed to use. If you want heavier bullets at greater speeds then get a larger centerfire .224 caliber rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:


Just a point to note; the modern hornet is not limited in chamber pressure. Stoke it!

I once got a range pick-up Winchester case mixed in and my load opened the primer pocket![/QUOTE]


My Speer #13 Reloading Manual published in 2003 says "industry maximum average pressure of the Hornet has been reduced 4,000 CUP during the past few years" and further states industry maximum average pressure (MAP) is now set at 43,000CUP.

My Speer #14 Reloading Manual published 2007 again says the MAP in 43,000 CUP. This manual says they used small pistol primers in order to get more powder choices to work within this pressure limit and still produce adequate velocities for the Hornet.

The Speer #14 load for a 52 gr hp bullet and cci500 small pistol primer uses maximum 9.7grs of Lil'Gun in Winchester cases to get 2515 fps.

So if your 55gr loads are moving out at 2740 fps I suspect you have exceed the MAP for the Hornet cartridge.

Praise the Lil Gun and pass the 35gr Hornady Vmax's I load them with the Rem 6 1/2 primer and 13gr Lil Gun.

Accuracy is outstanding in my Anschutz and Blaser rifles so I don't pay any attention to any velocity discrepancies

quote:

So if your 55gr loads are moving out at 2740 fps I suspect you have exceed the MAP for the Hornet cartridge.

By quite a bit I would think. The Hodgdon manual shows a max of 13.0 grains of Lil'Gun with a Hornady 55 grain bullet for 42,900 CUP. .7 of a grain more powder is 5.3% more powder. If the pressure curve is linear, which is a huge assumption, then you're several thousand CUP over with this load.

With 50 grain and lighter bullets and especially 45 grain and lighter bullets, you can't get enough Lil'Gun in a Hornet case to have a problem. But all that changes with 55 grain and heavier bullets. You can go over pressure. And as Stonecreek noted, you'd be doing so with brass not designed for such pressures.

You'll get indefinite brass life with Lil'Gun and the Hornet with light bullets---even if you stoke it. But you're really rolling the dice with the heavier stuff.

LWD