Yesterday my shooting buddy was testing .223 loads using 4198,which he never used in that rifle before. He was getting 5 shot, 1 3/4" groups at 100 yds. At 300 yds. he was getting under 3".

Now the kicker; in my 6.5x55 using commercial 139 gr. bullets loaded in Bosnia-Herzegovina the results were almost identical.

Both of the rifles had been shooting for over an hour off and on so it wasn't really a question of clean or cold barrel. roger

At risk of sounding snotty (and I'm not trying to be), I believe it's the shooter(s) and not the guns.

The expression 'aim small' has basis in fact. Don't aim at the bull, aim at the exact miniscule center of the bull. The 300 yd. bull appears smaller, and without realising it, you're 'aiming smaller', and the groups shrink a bit.

It is physically impossible for a rifle to shoot tighter groups at longer range - bullets simply do not go 'out of bounds', and then sneak back toward the center of the bore line. They just ain't that smart.

what tumbleweed says is true in a target shooters language its called chasing the bull. you end up concentrating on the target not on the sights. It done often by many shooters not only in shooting at a target but game as well. Many people look at the target or animal without paying strict attention what their sight picture is. Even with a scope, unless you're concentrating on where the crosshairs are when the gun goes off, the shot will be errant

I agree with the others: it's a sight picture issue.

Can not disregard what you are saying to be true ,but, same 6.5 short time later with proven hand loads at 100 yds. sub MOA.

My buddy using 8gr. Blue Dot and the same .223, same bullet did as well( sub MOA) if not better.

Bright sunny day and steady mild canyon winds. roger

Roger,

Another input to that problem, is that I talked to a doctor several years ago, who was a shooter and an optomitrist

What he was describing to me, is that with those of us that are older, is that we have a depth perception problem that can vary quite a bit...

We adjust optics differently than a young person as their eye sight is different, than ours...

however, the further distance out we get the less the depth perception problem is...

I can shoot better at 200 yds, than I can at 100 with almost any gun...

I also shoot much better on lower powers than I do higher magnifications for the exact same reasons...

The closer it comes to my eye, the more my depth perception comes into play...

the further out or the smaller the target is, the better I can visually adjust, as the depth perception issue is not as critical...

I have a young scout I am working with on the rifle shooting merit badge right now...

When he shoots open sites with his glasses at 25 yrds, his groups are pretty bad...

However, I move the target out to 50 yds and give him a scope that is set only on ONE power ( an old Weaver 1 x 3).... his groups tighten up dramatically....

The merit badge states he must shoot a certain sized group at 25 yds to get the merit badge...
However in his case, I am letting him qualify at 50 yds with a one power scope...

His mom said the doctor on his last eye exam said the boy had both a stigmatism and also had depth perception problems....

By the way, his groups at 25 yds, with a one power scope are better than open sites, but are no where near as good as what he can do at 50 yds...

All of this boy scout merit badge qualifying is done with a bolt action or single shot 22 LR...

quote:

It is physically impossible for a rifle to shoot tighter groups at longer range - bullets simply do not go 'out of bounds', and then sneak back toward the center of the bore line.

As far as horizontal dispersion goes, you are for the most part correct. But when it comes to vertical some strange things have been known to happen. Slower bullets spend more time in barrel, so muzzle rise can launch them on a bit higher trajectory. This results in a strange close range target where the slower bullet actually hits above where the flatter shooting faster bullet hits. But several more yards down range the slower bullet WILL fall back through the line of the faster bullets path - thus forming a smaller group at a more distant range. Weird but true.

Yeah Vibe, I have been experiencing just that phenomonen lately...

223 bullets with 55 grain FMJ's with an MV of 2000 fps, are hitting 2.5 inches higher at 100 yds, than loads with an MV of 3300 fps....

So I am actually having to adjust my target turrent down for the slower bullets instead of up... I have found this out with several different powder combinations...with the same MV out the barrel...

quote:

Originally posted by Vibe:
But when it comes to vertical some strange things have been known to happen. Slower bullets spend more time in barrel, so muzzle rise can launch them on a bit higher trajectory. This results in a strange close range target where the slower bullet actually hits above where the flatter shooting faster bullet hits. But several more yards down range the slower bullet WILL fall back through the line of the faster bullets path - thus forming a smaller group at a more distant range. Weird but true.

Thank you for the informative input. roger

Try these free targets!

I have it from a credible source that there is a term used of bullets called "going to sleep." This speaks of the turbulence that is created in the projectile as it first leaves the barrel. At some point in its flight, the bullet will "go to sleep," that is, stabilize. This can be a little farther out. I myself have had some 100 gr. .243's that almost the same at 200 as at 100. I know that when arrows are shot from a bow (traditional bow, anyway), they will do a little dance before they truly straighten out, which is called archer's paradox (very simplified). I was told this phenomenon explains why the .303 British seemed to do better after 800 meters than the .308, which did better under 800 meters, though I still don't quite understand it.

quote:

Originally posted by GabrielGuitars:
I have it from a credible source that there is a term used of bullets called "going to sleep." .

My buddy and I kicked this around some but figured like most answers here in, it was just conjecture as related to our experience that day.

My same buddy with the subposed sight conditon, as some would have it, shot a 4 shot .09" at 100 yds. Wed.The 5th shot screwed it up to .3". roger

I have tried 4198 in my 223 (Ruger #1) several different times and have found it to be inconsistant in my rifle. I have switched back to 748.

GabrielGuitars has a very good explaination for the phenomenon you are experiencing. Many long range match shooters will tell you that 100 yard groups are of little use in determining the accuracy of your loads. Many loads that will not shoot good groups at 100 will shoot better at longer ranges, the "going to sleep" or stabilizing after going past a certain distance. Palma shooters will test their loads at long range and pay little attention to what it does at 100 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by Masterifleman:
GabrielGuitars has a very good explaination for the phenomenon you are experiencing. Many long range match shooters will tell you that 100 yard groups are of little use in determining the accuracy of your loads. Many loads that will not shoot good groups at 100 will shoot better at longer ranges, the "going to sleep" or stabilizing after going past a certain distance. Palma shooters will test their loads at long range and pay little attention to what it does at 100 yards.

Makes sence to me. Thank you roger