Oops! That statement probably needed a little proof reading. I really don't like ANY animal to suffer. My point still stands, that "I" wouldn't do it, and I was really surprised that he did. His "other" gun, BTW, is a .375 H&H; thus he must have a spilt personality.

No offense, Beeman but that's bad hunting, not a bad cartridge. You're just repeating the hunting version of "guns kill, people don't". Those SOBs would say the same thing if they shot a 348 Winchester.

I am meerly trying to make a point! A bad hit with a 30 cal is bad, period, as is a bad hit with a 22 cal!

I for one go for a center of the ribs shot with the .223 Rem. Out to 200 yards and sometimes further they are deadly!
As a matter of fact, I go for a center of the ribs shot even when I'm using my 7mm Mag! "I" will not take a half-a-- shot at a deer!

Like I said in the earlier post, most people who badmouth the 222/223 have never shot a deer with one! The same goes for archery deer hunting around here, a lot of the old-timers claim that they see deer during the rifle season running around with arrows sticking out of them! BS!
Their point "an arrow won't reliably kill a deer"! The general consensus here, "a 22 cal won't reliably kill a deer"!
Another point concerning a shoulder hit and "meat loss"! If you take the shoulder off of a 150 pound whitetail and weigh it, it will weigh somewhere around 15 pounds, then when you remove the bone and tendons from it, you will be lucky to have 4 pounds of good clean meat! POINT: if you hit a deer in the shoulder, it's not like you ruined half of the deer!
I wouldn't hand a .223 to anyone who would take a hap-hazzard shot, any more than I would if it was a 30-06! I'm meerly saying that I have as much confidence in my .223 Remington as I do in my 7mm-08 or 7mm Rem Mag! If I don't get a decent shot, I don't shoot!

"So you just take the shot you can, regardless?"



Of course not. Anything over 400 yards is a pass. I carry a lazer range finder, when possible I use it. If they are that far away and sitting under a tree it is no big deal to get closer, most of the time. If he were on the move that is just bad luck. A few more examples, less than about 200 a walking deer gets shot. A running deer at less than 100, shoot him too. I try to make neck shots when possible, on the close ones.



"Scot suggested it was not possible unless you were a "TV" hunter."

I did not mean to imply that. You can use an inadequate rifle to take game. Folks do it all the time, but why?, what it the point??



If you want a challenge get into hunting with a flintlock or a bow. I have found that to be very rewarding. I have also found that a 50 caliber ball is a good killer and does not make lots of bloodshot, for what ever that is worth. A broadhead works well and most of my kills, (hogs) had complete pass throughs in the chest. Many rifle shooters would consiter a 1 1/2" wound channel completely through the chest to be good performance.



I digress, my point is that a good percentage of the time the buck is on the move and I may have only a few seconds to size him up and shot or not. It is not like what you see on TV where they futz around for a long time, at least where I hunt. If one could sit there for several minuets and wait for perfect angles and minimal range most any caliber would do. When the buck jumps out of the brush and gives you three seconds quartering away at less than 50 yards, you better have enough gun to get in behind the ribs and punch through to the heart and lungs. A .223 ain't going to cut it.



I started with a .243 at age 12. Then .257 Roberts. Then 250 savage.... 7 MM. Rem Mag. .308 ..........30-06. Shot some hogs with 45-70s, muzzle loaders and bows. I have now have a 25-06 in the works. I am not advocating a .338 on 150 lb deer. Just some reasonable chunk of bullet at some reasonable velocity. I now think that for the Central California deer a 100 grain bullet or more at 2700fps or better is minimum. I am no big authority, I have only killed about 75 head of big game with a bunch of different rifles. I have seen another 200 taken. The above is a criteria that seems to prove out in real life conditions. If you can wait for a perfect angle at 50 yards or less a .22 lr will do most of the time. Better shoot for the head though. Even neck shots are not 100%. And head shots, what the hell is that? With a center fire cartridge, the horns collapse, the eyes bug out, it is a nasty ugly demise to your trophy. I want the horns. What would happen if you came across a book quality buck? Are you going to pass because you will destroy the rack by taking the head shot?? Anyway, why handicap yourself with a rifle that only allows waiting for a perfect presentation. You will miss out on alot of venision if you do.

"I am meerly trying to make a point! A bad hit with a 30 cal is bad, period, as is a bad hit with a 22 cal!"

There have been several folks writing about only taking perfect shots and waiting for broadside shots and the like. That looks great on TV but is not the real world of hunting. I hunt in the West. We don't sit in trees and wait for the perfect 50 yard oppertunity. A .223 would work for that kind of shooting. We have to take it as they come. The vast majority of the big game I have killed did not pose for me. I usualy have to take the shot as it came. Most of them were on the move and not giving the perfect angles. In those cases an adequate rifle will punch through to something vital. Sometimes all does not go in a textbook fashon. A buck shot in the ham with a 30-06 is very likey to sit down and the same shot with a .223 he will not. I can't understand why anyone would use an inadequate pipsqueak rifle, it is just asking to wound and loose game.

I don't recommend taking bad shots, but you must admit, sometimes "stuff happens", even when you think you have a great set-up. A branch that you didn't see, a bad trigger pull, the deer steps just as you take the shot, you misjudge the distance, etc.

I'd rather have something a little heavier than a 223 when that happens.

Redlander wrote:

Quote:

---

You will never here from the guys that have shot deer with a .223 or .222 in the shoulder or in the meaty part of the deer only to have the round blow a shallow crater in the animal, follow a blood trail till it runs out, and never find the animal.

---

The reason you won't hear anything like the above quote is because that would be a rare event!

Some of you people don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Exactly what would a deer look like when it was hit in the hind quarters or through the shoulders with something like a 30-06, 300 Win Mag, 300 Rem Ultra Mag, or any other "over-kill" cartridge. I can answer that myself, like this: It would look like hamburger (with a little bone meal) in a deer hide!
I have seen deer hit in the hind quarters with a .223 Rem and it is nowhere near as destructive as some of you guys think, usually a wound channel about 3/4 inch in diameter with a little more if it hits bone! Also, if a deer is hit broadside, in the shoulder, I'll bet the loss wouldn't be one (that's 1) pound all together!
Don't forget, some people consider the .243/6mm cartridges "Varmint" rounds because they are "so destructive"!
I'll bet at least 90% of you guys putting the 22 cal's down, as far as deer hunting goes have never even shot a deer with one, therefore, don't know what you're talking about! I DO!

I wasn't comparing a bow to a 223, just pointing out that if western bow hunters can get close enough to bag game then surely a rifleman with discpline and a 223 can do the same. Scot suggested it was not possible unless you were a "TV" hunter.

This thread is one where "opinions" are all over the board. It's hinted that a bad shot from a big boomer will compensate for the bad shot. I don't buy that. The .223 is compared to a bow???? Hmmmmm figure the energy difference. Gonna tell me getting ran over by a bicycle is comparable to getting ran over by a motorcycle(they both have two wheels afterall)? It's hinted if you dont't have a good presentation for the shot,you can take it anyways with a big boomer. I have not let my grandson attempt several shots with a .243 and if it had been a 30-06 I still would have had him hold back. If it aint a good shot--it aint a good shot. Using the wrong bullet got mentioned. GUILTY and EMBARRASSED. I was getting very good accuracy and velocity right with jacketed bullets from a 95 grain cast bullet in my .243. I used it on a spike buck. Bad mistake. I know the deer was hit,but it took off at full speed and never slowed down and not one drop of blood found. I highly think that same deer with a .223 and a jacketed bullet would have been dressed on the spot. This is not knocking cast bullets--I think a heavier and larger cal would have harvested it too.

Why? Why not?? I have a Pre 64 that I did in 257 Bob without the magazine spacer. It is a very nice rifle, Pac-Nor match grade barrel, skeliton butplate and grip cap, 28LPI checkering, a very good stick of English, ebony forend tip. It is a bit heavy for my vision of a 257. It seemed like a waste to have all the extra space in there. Really, I Got bored, and wanted a project. The is no practical reason to choose a 25-06 over any other modern cartridge. I have never owned a 25-06, I guess that was a big part of it. Soon I will, got the reamer earlier this week. I have heard a lot of good things about the cartridge. I have a rifle that is the proper length for it. Why not?? I like to try a different rifle every few years. It keeps thing fresh and intersting. I was also attracted to the very flat trajectory. I have a place where I watch an alfalfa field. Some of those shots can be longish. Previously I had used a 7mm Mag. at that spot. I loaded lightish bullets. It shot flat and killed the deer just fine.

If I were simply intersted in killing game I would shoot my M-700 30-06. I agree, the 270 Win is a dandy cartridge. If I did not already have the 25 caliber barrel probably would have chosen the 270.

So you just take the shot you can, regardless? You're right, stay away from a caliber that demands purposeful intent and discipline. Do your western bow hunters throw arrows the same way?

This time you have some points I can agree with, especially because I horn hunt now more than meat hunt. I just disagree that a 55 gr bullet in a 223 in inadequate for all people in all "western" hunting which was where you really started your conversation.

Scot--This will probably come out as a flame--but none intended. It will also contradict what I have said in some of the other posts on this thread. Why did you select the 25-06? What will it do that a .270 doesnt do better? It's true that it will shoot a lighter bullet-- but in my books that doesn't make it a varmint round. Varmint round being one you might shoot a few hundred rounds in a day or in my case a night of jackrabbit shooting(works great for the one shot deal on a coyote--but thats another deal). Shooting jacks we do it from pickups and the recoil and blast from a 25-06 would be too much---exception would be using cast bullets in it. Even someone else doing the shooting would be too much blast(ever been in a pick-up when one went off?) With the 25-06 you are limited to 120 grain bullet--.270 you can go higher if needed--and you are making a bigger hole. Recoil from a .270 using a 130 grainer and a 25-06 using a 120 grainer is close to the same. The recoil difference is barely if at all noticeable. Sure the 25-06 has a little on the fine ol .257 Roberts you mentioned,but it aint really earth shattering difference as some might believe. Guess I just figure the 25-06 was a fine answer when there was no question. Due to its popularity,I realize many disagree and I'm sure the flames will come in hordes.

There are many, many things in life that I haven't tried: sky diving into live volcanoes, jumping out of airplanes w/o a parachute, looking down the barrel of my .357 and clicking the trigger to see if its loaded, etc. That I am not stupid enough to try it doesn't mean I shouldn't advise against it.
You can use what you like since it seems to be some sort of macho thing with you, but I hope you're man enough and woodsman enough to find the deer with your popgun fails miserably. And if it hasn't fail already, you're due.
Have a good'un.

I have a friend that deer hunts with a 223 using factory ammo soft point bullet. Is he crazy or am I crazy for thinking he is crazy? After helping drag many of his deers out of the woods< I have seen him take head shoots, lung shoots and spine shoots and never had to look to far for the deer. Is anyone else hunting with a 223 and if so what success have you had?