There has got to be a few people out ther that own a Cooper rifle.THinking of maybe getting one,looking for feedback,good and bad.How do they compare to Kimber rifles??? I am looking at getting a varminter in 6PPC.

Robert,

Try www.rimfirecentral.com, which has an entire enthusiastic Cooper forum, albeit not for centerfires. The concensus there seems to be that Cooper's are as good as you've heard - extremely accurate, reliable, and with phenomenal factory support on the (also) extremely rare times of need.

IMO, they aren't more popular because only the rimfire versions are magazine-fed. Folks who use centerfire bolt actions seem mostly to want a multi-shot capability.

Jaywalker

Why Cooper does not offer magazine fed centerfire rifles in calibers useful for more than rat punching is beyond me.

Accuracy, I think. That solid bottom without magazine cut makes for a really stiff receiver. I agree, though, it doesn't do it for me, either, on the centerfires. (I am in the market for an M57M rimfire, though.)

Jaywalker

quote:

Originally posted by Jaywalker:
Accuracy, I think.

Someone needs to teach Cooper a marketing lesson. One-hole group accuracy is neither necessary nor desireable in a big game hunting rifle.

Maybe they are happy with what they do. I see it as $ left on the table.

Robert:

FWIW, I have a new Cooper LVT in .17 HMR which I fired today for the first time. It was a bit windy, but I believe the rifle will consistely shoot under 1/2" at 100 yards. That is not great accuracy for a .17 HMR, but it is certainly acceptable for a rimfire. That said, when I take the rifle out again, if conditions right, 1/4" groups would not surprise me. Cooper uses Wilson barrels. The Wilson tube is a relatively inexpensive button rifled barrel. I believe it costs even less than a standard grade Douglas barrel. However, Cooper has gotten amazing accuracy from these barrels over the years. If you go to www.saubier.com there are many threads discussing Coopers. I have seen posts by Cooper owners raving about 1/4" groups being the norm. The test targets which come with their rimfire rifles [fired in a tunnel shielded from wind] are generally one hole groups at 50 yards.


Jordan

I have a cooper varmint .223 and it is very satisfactory.

HP:

quote:

One-hole group accuracy is neither necessary nor desireable in a big game hunting rifle.

It may not be necessary, but I find it very desirable....

Here's my older .223 Cooper VE 21 (no ugly slots in the forearm)....The group measures .178...5 shots at 100 yds. My best ever...No neck turning, No brass sorting..Win Brass, Nosler 40 gr. BT's...It will crank out sub .5 moa groups with boring repetition, with the occasional gem like this group.

I wish I could get a picture that would do the 3D nature of the AAA Walnut on the buttstock..truly amazing. As I said, this is an older cooper, back when they put some serious wood on them for not too much extra....

I have never seen a Cooper that would not shoot. But Dan Cooper is a man I will not do busienss with due to his business ethics. If you ahve a problem, you are on your own. If you have a rifle that works fien, then all is great. He will refuse to address problems with his products, regardless of how many of his rifles you have or sell for him. Can't tell you how many people htis has happened to.

I will not do business with Cooper either....Those "groups" they enclose with their rifles are an absolute joke-shot at 40 yards with a 36X scope...The early rifles often contained one shot "groups"....

Their business ethics are poor-arrogant and customer unfriendly...Anyone desiring more specifics is welcome to PM me....

The reason their centerfires are single-shot has nothing to do with accuracy...It would be cost-prohibitive for them to build a repeater...the real difference in accuracy between their single shot design and a repeater is nil-witness the Kimber of Oregon repeaters.....

I understand there was a change of company several years ago - the "Old Cooper" and the "New Cooper," to make things simple. Since the "New Cooper" didn't make the "Old Cooper" rifles, I understand they don't believe simply sharing the name means they should be responsible for past sins.

There may be other issues not related to that, but, if so, I think a person who has such an issue should specify it in the open. I've never cared for the "PM me for details" approach - this thread will be here for years. If "New Cooper's" done something wrong, let's hear it. Otherwise, I choose to disbelieve unsubstantiated slurs.

Jaywalker

Well, I've had to interract with Cooper twice since I had my rifle, once I had to send it back because the finish had been damaged by some dessicant that leaked out of a plastic tub and dripped on the gun pictued above (Murphy's law, 30 guns in the safe and of course it drips on the Cooper!). They were never anything but helpful and I believe I spoke with Dan himself and don't remember any problems.

My only issue is that I'm not fond of the lower end Montana series with their average wood and goofy slotted forends. Save a bit of extra money and buy a VE. I do also wish somoene would inlet a quality synthetic stock so I could take my gun prairie dog shooting and not worry about babying it so much...

Oh, and those test targets Cooper sends may be a gimmick but I'm no benchrest guy and as you can see my gun produces outdoor groups at 100yds that seem to correspond to my test target. I used a Leupold 6.5-20x40 to shoot the group shown above. I'm sure with a 36x scope and shooting indoors at 50 yds my gun would produce a .1 group for three shots.

Jaywalker:

Dan Cooper's lack of ethics has been discussed on BBS's for years-very much in the open. It gets to be a broken record. When Cooper reorganized, Cooper was supposed to be running the show, so while true, it was different corporate intity, it is only so in legal, accounting, and tax concerns. The same person was in the same role. And from all reports, he has the same lack of ethics that he ever had. THe compalints against Dan always centered around one theme-he won't stand behind his product or his word.

This started form Day 1 when their original .22's would not extract. They would shoot with any Anschutz out there, but you could never count on them to extract. The lergest Cooper dealer in the country (a friend of mine) had to take legal action against him to resolve other problems. I hav eseen too many Cooper issues with my own eye balls, and seen how my friends were treated. Add to this numerous accounts that mirrored my observations, and it is a pattern of doing business that I will not support.

I do have an Anschutz USA rifle, which was an Anschutz barreled action that was stocked by Cooper. They made approximately 250 of these rifles. I won't own anything else Cooper.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
Jaywalker:
"Dan Cooper's lack of ethics has been discussed on BBS's for years-very much in the open. It gets to be a broken record. When Cooper reorganized, Cooper was supposed to be running the show, so while true, it was different corporate intity, it is only so in legal, accounting, and tax concerns. The same person was in the same role. And from all reports, he has the same lack of ethics that he ever had. THe compalints against Dan always centered around one theme-he won't stand behind his product or his word."


Dan Cooper must be gone a lot, as his current customer service dept is trying very hard to correct issues with problem rifles. My Mod 21 17M4 is back for a rechamber, due to previous reamers being questionable. Prior trips back, Cooper even issued a UPS call tag, so I was out zero $$. Do I wish it had been done right the first time? ...hell yes, but to state they do not stand behind their products/warranty is using a very broad brush.

On a seperate Cooper where I am at least the 3rd owner, I was offered by Cooper to fix a minor split in the stock forearm (dadgum ventilated stock...), at no cost, just send it in. I declined, as I was told by customer service the type of finish they use, which is why I contacted them.

There will always be customer/corporate issues, where somebody is not going to get the satisfaction they expect or deserve.

Robert, one issue you should consider with the chambering you are looking at (6mm PPC), is what brass you are planning to use, and are you planning to turn necks??

The standard brass to use for accuracy work in the 6mm PPC is Lapua .220 Russian, necked up and fireformed. BUT, Lapua brass is fairly beefy, so if this is the route you plan to take, enquire at Cooper whether the chamber will take that brass unturned?? I'm GUESSING (note, not sure), that the unturned Lapua will be around .269" - .270" loaded. That means you need a .271 - .272" neck. Cooper will advise. (Naturally, if you plan to neck turn, the above is not a concern).

If the Lapua route will not work, there is rumoured to be Norma 6mm PPC brass available from RW Hart - although it is not listed in their catalog. Norma stopped making 6mm PPC some years back, and they MAY have started again. The Norma brass will be thinner in the neck than the Lapua.

Sako also still offers 6mm PPC, but quality can be so-so for the price they ask.

Finally, Grafs sell (cheaper) 6mm PPC brass. Dimensionally, it is not as uniform as Lapua, but the brass is fairly reasonably priced, and can easily be made to work. This brass will measure about .268" (neck) loaded.

- mike

Example of some VE wood.....not mine.....yet

My name is Dan Cooper, yes I am the owner of Cooper Arms. I wanted to set the record straight as there seems to be all sorts of speculation and conjecture concerning both me, my ethics, and the company.

From a control issue, I was in control of the company from 1990 to 1993 and then 1998 to present. From 1991 to 1993 Cooper was experiencing 300% growth per year requiring huge amounts of money (none of which I had). Not so concerned about corporate operations and more concerned about making rifles, I lost controlling interest in the company in 1993 and was replaced as president and removed from the day to day operations. In 1995 I left the company, returning in August of 1996 as head of production for CV Sports who had aquired Cooper. In mid-1998, CV Sports failed and I mortgaged and sold everything I had to get Cooper, thus the creation of Cooper Firearms of Montana (that exists today).

I'm not sure how to respond to the libelous claims of my lack of business ethics, only to say that I consider them libelous. I would rather that the person contact me direct to get the facts straight...starting from the fact that our largest dealer is and has been The Outdoorsman and claims of legal action by them against me or the company (no matter who was running it) are simply false.

Beginning with the claims of the original M36's, yes, there were some issues with extraction but these problems were ammunition related (mainly the use of RWS) as the chambers were set to engrave the second ring on an Eley Tenex round. We continued to improve the design over the years primarily due to customer feed-back...the shooters make us better every year.

As President of Cooper I have made and will always make customer service a number one priority. Can we satisfy everyone with a complaint? No, but we damn sure try and will keep on trying. This becomes the basis of improvement for any American company.

Am I gone a lot? Yes, I am. I spend a lot of time with our dealers and consumers soliciting their comments on how we can improve and what new products they would like to see. Cooper is a grass-roots company and I want it to remain that way.

I have a great General Manager (Dan Pickett) and customer service man (Rob Behr) both of whom share the same high regard toward customer care that I do. And it is true that periodically we wrestle with rifles from the past, the past we had little to do with, but the fact remains, we still care and will still wrestle with these issues simply because they have the Cooper name on them and my people care deeply about the quality of their product...no matter who made it.

Those who seek the truth can simply do so by contacting me direct. My personal email is dcooper@bigsky.net. Thank-you for the forum.

Hello Dan,
Did you ever make the model 38 action in left hand? I would love one left-handed with a magazine.
John

John,
Cooper Arms never made a left handed M38, at least not under my control or design. The current M38 is getting a new face lift that should make the 2006 production year. This will include a left handed version. Looking at the future of the M38, I don't see a magazine going on, rather the M57M will be getting a magazine for the Hornet family in a centerfire version (both left and right handed).

Thats great, it is just what I am looking for. Is the sapphire still a catalog rifle for the M57?
John

No it's not, it's a special order item but John down at New Jersey Firearms Guild in Rahway can order one for ya, just tell him I said you could. Keep in mind that the hornet repeater on the 57 won't hit 2006, my guess is that late 2007 is more like it, maybe 2008.

quote:

I am looking at getting a varminter in 6PPC.

I was too! The only thing that stopped me from getting the Cooper is that they would not cut the LOP to 12.5". I used the money to buy a CZ 527 and a Savage 12BVSS-S. I'll cut the stocks myself. Although I haven't cut the CZ yet as it is awful pretty. roger

Mr. Cooper,

You have nothing to apologize for. I don't understand the hatred of some people towards rifles your company makes. It almost seems personal.

I own two Coopers. My 17 Mach IV shoots .3 groups @ 100 yeards with the first load I tried. I have not even fine tuned the load.

My model 57 classic in 22LR shoots .1" groups at 50 yards using Wolf Match Gold ammo.

I will be buying more of your rifles.

When I call for questions, Rob Behr has been incredibly helpful and friendlier than any other arms manufacturer I've dealt with in the past.

The quality, fit & finish of your rifles are excellent.

I understand why people complain about the 47 yard test shots, but why does it matter if the scope is 36X or not? How does that effect the quality of the rifle it self? It doesn't. I develope all of my loads now using a 32x or 36x BR scope hope. Helps reduce operator error.

Keep up the good work. I wish you and your company great success. My only complaint is that I've had to wait 8 months when I order a Cooper and that wait it shear torture to me.


Regards,
Kory

I'm with Kory on that. Never met a Cooper Rifle I didn't like. They are shooters, that's all that matters to me.

I have three Coopers and the only reason I don't have more is lack of money, when more money happens so will more Coopers.
I did have a problem with the accuracy on one and due to that and what happened around it I have reason to most strongly take exception with Marc's statement!
Rob Beher bent over backwards to get my rifle doing exactly what they promised which is 1/2 inch groups, it took a bit of work but it now aggs 5 shot groups in the mid .3's. That is not only amazing accuracy for a rifle that cost under a thousand dollars, but amazing customer service that goes above and beyond anything I've experienced even with custom rifles costing three times as much.
I'm not sure what the issues were that brought on the initial post, but after what I and the large number of guys I know that also have Coopers have experienced "Recently" I'm taking it with a grain of salt and my advice to those unfamiliar with Coopers would be to do the same. There's two sides to every story and I'll wager there's more to this one than is being posted. What I'm reading is diametrically opposed to how I've been treated.
I'm a dedicated small caliber shooter and I feel a large debt of gratitude to Cooper Arms for what they offer guys like me. .17 Ackley Hornets, .17 MachIV's .20 Vartargs, Tactical .20's incredible small caliber wild cats that shoot the way they do at the prices charged??? Who else does that for us? Nobody! That's who.
Nobody makes a perfect rifle every try and neither does Cooper, but their customer service is second to none and and if you get one that doesn't shoot first time call em, it will before their done.
KUDO's to Cooper.

I have a cooper .223 varmint gun. Took a while to get it to shoot but now it shoots pretty good. Not as good as a Sako.

Next time I will just get a quarter minute AR15 built instead of screwing around with a cooper.

montdoug:

quote:

...when more money happens so will more Coopers.

500grains:

quote:

Next time I will just get a quarter minute AR15 built instead of screwing around with a cooper.

You know, I never considered that, but it's certainly a valid approach in a search for accuracy. I want more than accuracy in a rifle, though - nice metal, nice wood, both fitted together well - you know, the "Old School."

As an added bonus, with a bolt, I don't need to clean many, many sharp locking surfaces. I sold my AR to get away from that. There's no doubting that it's accurate, but it doesn't appeal to me the way a nicely assembled wood-and-steel bolt gun does, though.

Jaywalker

Liddell, now that we have the luxury of a direct line to Cooper's (hoping you may still be following this thread). I have heard, that some Coopers were manufactured either with or accepting Jewell triggers. That is not the case on current models. From a shooter's point of view, it would be ideal if the Coopers would accept after market triggers - the standard triggers, although very servicable, don't come close to the best after market models. So from a manufacturing point of view, what caused you to design around a trigger system, which does not allow after market triggers to be fitted?? Simply cost issues??

By far the most after market triggers are made for Remington actions. A lot of custom actions have been designed to accept these triggers. Why not the Cooper??
- mike (M21 Varmint, .22 PPC)

I agree tight groups in a big game rifle are totally unnecessary my .280 get groups that average just over 9.782 anyone should be happy with that............Right? And a one foot group would be even better.

quote:

Originally posted by mho:
Liddell, now that we have the luxury of a direct line to Cooper's (hoping you may still be following this thread). I have heard, that some Coopers were manufactured either with or accepting Jewell triggers. That is not the case on current models. From a shooter's point of view, it would be ideal if the Coopers would accept after market triggers - the standard triggers, although very servicable, don't come close to the best after market models. So from a manufacturing point of view, what caused you to design around a trigger system, which does not allow after market triggers to be fitted?? Simply cost issues??

By far the most after market triggers are made for Remington actions. A lot of custom actions have been designed to accept these triggers. Why not the Cooper??
- mike (M21 Varmint, .22 PPC)

Mike, Good questions. From the very beginning, I wanted the Cooper rifle to be an extremely accurate and very beautiful sporting arm. What I did not anticipate was the shooting community pushing the Cooper rifle into the competition arena...a very naive view on my part. As such, I wanted a standard trigger that was adjustable within the product liability limits and be crisp and clean. Therefore, the trigger on the Cooper rifles of today.

We are getting ready to approve a trigger design by Rifle Basics that will go down to 2oz. That is coming soon and will readily adapt to any Cooper action.

quote:

Originally posted by liddell:
We are getting ready to approve a trigger design by Rifle Basics that will go down to 2oz. That is coming soon and will readily adapt to any Cooper action.

Way to go! Yeehaaa!
- mike

A few more words about Cooper. I made a trip to Stevensville, MT from Denver last week. Rob Behr gave me a tour of Cooper's operation. You would have thought I was family considering the way I was treated. Great people doing jobs they enjoy! Everyone in the place was introduced to me and they all wanted to show me what they were doing.

Not too long ago I had a 204 Ruger MTV that cracked a stock. No idea how it happened. It had been shot about 50 rds and was only three weeks old. I called Rob, sent the rifle back. Ten days later my MTV was back to me with a new stock. What more can be said about Cooper's service.

BTW, I am shopping for my ninth Cooper right now. I think I like them.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Next time I will just get a quarter minute AR15 built instead of screwing around with a cooper.

Amen to that. The perfect dog town rifle is a 24" heavy barreled AR with a good scope, swiveling bipod (I would sling up personally), and a 30 round magazine.

1/4" AR-15's!
All righty then!
"I gots to know" (from the movie "Dirty Harry" circa 1974).
Where does one find an AR-15 Rifle that shoots 1/4" 5 shot groups at 100 yards!
I have been around AR-15's since day one (no I have never owned one - don't want one either!) and I have seen literally hundreds of them performing at the range and in the Varmint fields, in their myriads of variations, brands and calibers and I have never seen one shoot a 1/4" five shot group at 100 yards!
HP Shooter or 500 grains, are you saying these type (1/4") AR's are commonly available and if so from whom and at what price?
I am not saying there is no such thing as an AR-15 that usually shoots 1/4" five shot groups at 100 yards - I am saying, I have never seen one! And I shoot and "get around" A LOT!
In my travels and observations I have seen exactly one AR-15 that shot 1/2" groups (on occassion) at 100 yards.
Maybe technology has passed me by out here in the wilds of Montana but, I do so want the particulars on these 1/4" AR-15's.
Hell, MAYBE I will buy one!
Thanks in advance for any enlightenment.
Hold into the wind
Varmintguy

I was all set to buy a 6ppc cooper to shoot factory class at Shippensburg last spring. But.........they decided to make Coopers illegal in factory class and would have to shoot against full blown customs. I think that speaks volumns for Cooper. I bought one anyway in .204 and Wow...it's boring.

With the mention of AR15's I figured I'd chime in. I've got a heavy barreled AR10 that I'm getting used to. I started with Black Hills ammo and didn't really get the results I was hoping for. I suspect there was some setback in the bullets. I got a hold of a box of Lapua ammo and after I put a few rounds of this through the barrel had some good groups. The last two five shot groups at 100 yds were approx .6 inches. That's pretty darn good for an AR. I've heard Lapua puts a crimp on the bullet which helps keep it from being setback in a semi. I don't like the cleaning and it is hard on the brass. I don't reload yet but I've read extra considerations come into play w/ a semi auto.

Joe

I dont own a cooper myself. However I do have a friends that owns a couple and he told me the only thing keeping him from buying more was money.

as a wise person said....never say never....Dan Cooper personally addressed my unresolved issue and I could not be happier with the outcome....he did not have to get involved but did so with no urging or promise of anything....

Thanks, Dan.....it's nice to know there's still people who care about each and every customer-no matter how small they might be.....