Ladies and Gentlemen:

Warrior's topic on the 257 Roberts caused me to do some research, and this little beauty came to mind as one sweet little varmint round: 250/3000 Ackley Improved. I'm pretty sure that I'm going to do it.

What has been your collective experience with this round, and where can you get decent brass?

I shudder to think about $33.00 per 50 cases for Winchester junk now a days.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

I've necked up .22-250 brass in the past for my 250-3000. Redding sell expander buttons for their dies. I don't see the need for the improved version but then I'm a reactionary. It is a sweet factory round you will find far more pleasant to use than the .243.

since you're talking IMP I presume you are going bolt action. If so I suggest you go deep throated and fast twist to accommodate 120 grain bullets that don't pertrude into the powder room. Whole new ball game. roger

The .250 Savage or .250 Savage AI will fit in my favorite medium action, the Sako L57/L579/A-II, whereas the Roberts is very tight in that action. That's the best reason I can think of for building the neat little Savage round.

As far as brass, you can make it from damn near anything on the '06 head. I'd probably start with .243 or .308 brass since those are the most widely available in the greatest variety of makes and finishes.

My bullet for varmints is the 75 grain v-max.
As far as brass I have used Remington and Winchester they both work.If you want to make some out of other 06 type brass 270,30-06,280 or others you will have to get some type of forming die.There is a lot of trimming to be done.
I haven't shot any bullet larger than the 100 grain but I don't have any doubt that they will get the job done.

quote:

Originally posted by plainsman456:
My bullet for varmints is the 75 grain v-max.

+1. FWIW the Sierra 87 Spt has almost the same BC.

I suggest a 1:9.5" twist if you plan to shoot the 120's.

Oh my goodness! I better hobble downstairs and open uop the vault and tell my Mod 600 250 AI it is a varmint cartridge! All these years it has thought it was a deer and elk rifle. Oh WOE is ME! I make my brass from L.C NM 308 brass and it lasts forever. I betcha I STILL have a few cases I made in Hawaii in the late 80s that will still hold the primer..
Aloha, Mark

BTW! If you really want to see performance~~~ try a 1-12 twist and forget the 120s and stick with the 100s for deer and whatever and the 75s for smaller stuff. I shoot ONLY Nosler Solid Base bullets and an occasional Nosler 95 gr. TRy it--you might just like it.
MP

Ladies and Gentlemen:

Thank you for all of your responses.

I think I may have the brass situation in hand though: 22-250 Lapua.

I can get Redding 250-3000 AI dies with a .22-.25 caliber tapered expansion ball that will neck up the brass to .257 caliber. Thanks, Code 4.

I made the mistake of using Lapua brass in a Sako 243 Winchester that I sold last year, and now that's the only kind of brass that I want to use.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Yale,
How is your 7 AI? I just built a 250AI and if you want good brass you can use either 6XC or 6.5 creedmoor. Basically the Creedmoor is an improved 250 with a 30degree shoulder. PM me for load ideas.

quote:

Originally posted by GUNNR:
Yale,
How is your 7 AI? I just built a 250AI and if you want good brass you can use either 6XC or 6.5 creedmoor. Basically the Creedmoor is an improved 250 with a 30degree shoulder. PM me for load ideas.

What kind of velocities are you getting with the 250 A.I.? Say 87 grainers or what ever you load?

The two that I have are outstanding. One is a sporter weight Stevens 200. the other is a varmint weight Ruger#3. For the varmint weight my bullet choice is the 75gr V-Max also. With RL15 I am getting 3550fps. The most economical and easiest way to get brass is to shop for "once-fired" 22/250 and neck up.
For the sporter weight I use 100gr Bal Tips( or any cup&core). With RL15 I am getting 3198fps average for 5 shots. This and the Roberts are my favorites.
GOOG LUCK and GOOD SHOOTING!!!

Ladies and gentlemen, and fans of the .250:

I am just curious. If a relatively low cost mauser type action were offered in the kurz size would you buy one and build a .250 on it.

"Low cost" in relation to what?

I like my present 250 AI on a Rem 788 action and I've had two other "standard" 250's...A Ruger RSI and a rebarreled Rem 700 SA.

85gr CT, AA2700, 31-3200fs and 75 VM, AA2700 3350-3400fs. H414 gave excellent speed but was spikey up at the top levels so I dropped that one and went to the slightly faster 380 but didn't hit the good spot until I went to AA2700...excellent accuracy AND speed and no surprises.

I think it is a very small market and the cost of even a "low" cost Mauser action with all the attendent costs of building a rifle VS basically just a rebarrel or rechamber on the presently available actions would put that thought to rest.

The fact of the 25 WSSM or wildcats on the newer RCM, Creedmore, SPC and that ilk might also put a crimp even in the 250 AI customer base.

That action WOULD make a nice rifle tho'!!!

Brass cost is relative...I just paid a buck apiece for Norma 6.5-284 and 220 Swift from the cheapest source. Norma, Lapua etc run at least a buck apiece and Rem, Win half that from all my sources, plus there are several other cheaper cases you can make 250 AI brass out of...22-250, 243, 6mmRem, Creedmore(basically a 250 AI necked up to 6.5), 300 Sav, 308, 7-8 x 57...Win is just price gouging on the 250 Savage cases.

Luck

I have a Remington short action and a McMillan ultra light stock that I was looking at getting barreled to 25-308, would make a nice walking around gun for smaller stuff up to deer, hogs, Impala. I got to looking at the reamers my smith has and there was a 25-300-AI, I did some research and there is really not that much difference in field performance between the two. Get a barrel twist for 87-100 grain bullets; if I need to go heavier I will use a different gun.
Another advantage of the 250 AI is the brass head stamps would match the barrel markings.

Mark

To be honest, I shot the 115's and up in my 25-06 for close to 15 years, with a 1-10 twist and they shot excellent. When I gave the rifle to my daughter I switched over to the 110gr AB, and so far it has done everything the heavier bullets did and actually groups a bit better.

If I were you, and was concerned about shooting the heavier bullets then I might go with a slightly faster twist, but given the velocities you can achieve with that round I would stick to the 110gr AB for a heavy bullet and be done with it. It will shoot very well from a standard 1-10 as will the other lighter weights at velocities your looking at.

Just my .02

6.5 Creedmoor

I've been wildcatting for over 50 years and just finished(almost) a 6mm-284, just because I have had 2 previous and all the dies, cases etc bugging me if they aren't being used.

I think EVERYONE should have at least one wildcat with all the attendant problems and learning experiences...

But in todays world I pick something that is readily available so I don't have to go through all the PITA of getting the brass sorted out, custom dies and so forth.

In their day ALL the 25 cal wildcats...or any other caliber for that matter...did produce a little more umph than the standards...that isn't the case today.

You can use the 6.5 Creedmore case neck it down to 25 or 6mm and use ONE set of Redding Bushing dies to reload all of them just by changing bushings...and use the same brass. You can't get any easier than that.

You can do the same thing with the 6mm(243)-308, 25-308, 6.5-308 or the 284 case necked down...but getting dies is the problem if you don't research your wildcat well.

I've also had 25-06's since 1959, 5 to be exact. I used a 75gr Sierra or VM, 100 gr Nosler, and 120 Hornady or Sierra for all the rifles...but I will try the 110 AB now that it's out.

I really like todays choices in bullets, powders and primers much better than "back in the day" and I think ALL the different calibers are great...doesn't matter which one. Having choice is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

There isn't much difference between a 257 R and a 25-308(25 Souper) with 87-100 gr bullets...there's a bit of difference between the 25 Souper and the 250 AI, a few gr of H2O, but it depends more on the brand of case you use and the reamer, but that gets into hair splitting and the game never knows any difference.

I would opt for the 6.5 Creedmore or 260 Rem tho'...for a SA...I have plans for another Savage barrel in one of those...I have two 6.5 Swede military, carbine and longtom, but think I need to try the Creedmore or 260 just for kicks. The 260 barrel will add another cal to the 308 case calibers and one Redding FL Bushing sizer takes care of most of them...I need a 338 Fed barrel also...one cannot have TOO many shooters to play with.

It's YOUR shooter, pick the cal/case you want for whatever reason you want and enjoy it.

I have several Ruger/Rem/Sav receivers setup for switch barrels so when I get tired of one caliber, it is an easy switch to change...and much cheaper to do just a barrel than a whole rifle...hahahahaha

Luck

The difference between my 25" 250 Sav and the 24" 250AI is 100fps. The 257DGR adds another 100fps to the equation. I use 10 twist barrels on all of my 25cals. I normally use 100gr bullets for deer but the last couple of years I have loaded the 110 accubond, I ran out of 100 Nosler solid base. I use mostly 75gr bullets for varmints, with the 75gr V-max being one of the most accurate 25cal bullets I have ever shot in a variety of rifles. In fact I have better 100-200 yard groups with the V-max than with Fowler or Berger bullets. The 257 DGR was "born" because of the brass quality issues for the 250 Savage. I have had much higher quality brass for Remington that Winchester. I was making AI brass from 243 brass when I decided, why not design a similar case that would be easier to make. Thus the 257DGR. One pass through the die with 260 brass and the brass is 98% "formed". Accuracy and velocity is as equal to fire formed brass for all practical purposes. You can't go wrong with any of the 3 I have or some other version of a 25/08(I would use 260 brass). The argument against the 25cal is that there are not enough choices for "match" grade bullets- trust me, the 8000 or so prairie dogs and a couple hundred deer/coyotes etc. that have died from the 25cal rifles I own never knew they were supposed to be safe because my choice of caliber is not winning target shoots.

www.duanesguns.com

quote:

Redding sell expander buttons for their dies

Redding dies come with expander buttons no need to change anything....

Ackley himself said the 250-3000, the 257 Roberts and the 7x57 were is successes in that they gained more velocity than any of his other wildcats..Most of these mentioned calibers will pick up a least 300 FPS and that is awesome...

As much as I like the 250 Ackley, I feel like the beauty of the std. 250 Savage is the light recoil, light muzzle blast, and I can vouch for its killing power on deer and elk, it simply works, that is something I cannot say about the 6mm's and I have used them also..

quote:

Ackley himself said the 250-3000, the 257 Roberts and the 7x57 were is successes in that they gained more velocity than any of his other wildcats..Most of these mentioned calibers will pick up a least 300 FPS and that is awesome...

and most of that is due to dramatically increased loading pressure and not for added boiler room!

All things being equal...and of course they NEVER are....case capacity and pressure drives velocity...simple physics.

Anyone can come up with the difference in velocity with John Barsness's "1/4 the difference in capacity" formula.

I do gain quit a bit over Rem 250 Sav ammo when compared to my 250 AI, but not all that much when compared to handloads...I still run up against "the RULE" when both are loaded to the same pressures...

I could run the pressures up just a bit more with the AI'ed case...not recommended or an "across the board" thing to do...but in the Ruger 250 Sav and 250 SavAI rifles I've played with it was safe.

Vapodog hit it right on the nose...most of the "previous" velocities for the 250 Sav, 257 R and many other cartridges when brought up to the "normal" pressures safe in a modern bolt action are what make those cartridges seem like they just grew muscles in all the "different" places.

Most AI'ed cases gain 5-10% over their parents case volume so you gain about 1/4 that amount in added velocity or ~1.25 to 2.5%. NOT really all that much when you look at it closely...but by running up the pressure from 45Kpsi to 55Kpsi, you run up the velocity PLUS get the added gain in the "boiler room"...which accounts for that ASTOUNDING difference.

The real difference is just about the difference between the standard 250 Sav and the 257 R...or the 257R and the 25-05 or 25 WSM...all you have to do is study the different ballistics tables or check out QL or Load from a Disk.

I think EVERYONE should do at least one wildcat for themselves...THEN they would get into all the little nuances and hair splitting, BS, etc of comparing PO Ackleys offerings in his books with modern "stuff" and probably just forget about the wildcat they were dreaming about...it's been done but what's available today just blows those "oldies" out of the water.

What the oldies are good for tho' is BRAGGING RIGHTS...Everybody and their cousins have a 308...I have 3-4...but how many have a 308 Win Davis Imp...or even that case improved buy taking the should out to 0.460" and gaining just a bit more? That gets you from ~53gr H2O to about 60gr H2O...~11.5% gain in volume, that's almost 3% more velocity... ...and bragging rights around the BBQ.

I've been doing this wildcat thing a whole long time and I have a very hard time trying to find some hole to fit my "LATEST AND GREATEST" super sumpn-sumpn into...except in the 50 cal and above...and that's getting crowded now.

Hey...it's all fun, but sticking with the "standards" makes many things a whole lot simpler, cheaper, and easier...but what do I know?

Luck

Ladies and Gentlemen:

Thank you for all of your interesting opinions.

I had such a success with my 7x57 AI, that I can hardly wait to try out a 250/3000 AI using Lapua 243 Winchester brass necked up, of which I have 100 cases sitting around.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

I have one on a older tang Ruger Ultralight platform that I believe Bohica (assuming he is who I think he is) barreled for me maybe ten years ago. I use Winchester brass and 100 gr TSX's and it is an easy 1/2" gun. Hogs and deer are all it has seen but my three boys have been just deadly with it. Youngest son Tony below from last spring.

Boxhead -

Your boy looks like a good lad, and happier than a pig in poop...but let me ask...where (within say 50 miles) was that picture taken? That is some of the prettiest country I've seen in at least 50 years!!


And, yeh, I think the improved cartridges primarily work well because of improved (higher) pressures....but I also suspect they are more amenable to higher pressures than are the standard chambers.

I know lots of folks don't believe it, but I still think the resulting less taper to the case allows for higher pressures without too much increase in bolt thrust...which in turn I still think is a bit easier on the brass at the increased pressures achieved, than it would be on the standard round at the same higher pressures.

Anyway, I like them. My two favorite AIs are the 8mm/06 Improved and the .250 Savage Improved.

Gawd, that's pretty country!!

Dear Boxhead!!
That kid of yours [Tony] is one good looking young man.
Many kudos!!
Aloha, Mark

That is about 50 miles outside of San Antonio.

Mark,

Are, were, you a rifle builder?

If I was going to do a custom it wouldn't be a 250AI, not because it isn't a great little round but because if I'm going to have to make cases why not do something unusual & higher performance? As Ray said earlier, the beauty of the 250 in standard form is it functions well as a mild cartridge.

I was a hares breath away from dropping cash to build a .257DGR or a .257 Durham Jet. I won a .25-06 and it shot so well I decided to keep it and not to screw with the model 600 that was going to be my donor.

I have become quite fond of the .25 cal and think still of building one of these. It is the most effective, and versitile caliber I think.

I like the 100gr bullets on big game but find the heavier ones so incredibly lethal that I still use and recommend several of the heavier bullets depending on what your rifle shoots well. I now have two one in .257 Roberts & still have the .25-06. Can't see letting either one go.

For varmints the 75gr Hornady in the Roberts has become a fav of mine though I had great shooting with the heavier Nosler BT it really messes up fur if you think you may want to same it. I had close to the same damage with the 75gr Hornady as I get with my .22-250. Nate

Most of Ackley,s IMP. rounds were loaded too hot, no doubt about that but the 250-3000, 7x57 and 257 Robts IMP. are supposed to be not guilty as charged according to HP White Labs. I don't know, but those are very popular wildcats even today...My only complaint is there isn't a thing wrong with the std. rounds in all 3, and to me the beauty of a 250 Savage, 257 or 7x57 is they kill well indeed and without the recoil..If it ain't broke then don't fix it...

Boxhead!
My wife retired me a few years ago butsaid I can work for anyone I like but not for P.I.T. A.s Makes life sweet. I still build 7-10 a year.
Aloha, Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Bohica:
Boxhead!
My wife retired me a few years ago butsaid I can work for anyone I like but not for P.I.T. A.s Makes life sweet. I still build 7-10 a year.
Aloha, Mark

I believe you put together my son's rifle posted with a take off barrel you had. K?????? Custom?