Last year I got a .17 Mach IV Cooper, it needed a little tweaking and I just got it back from them. I made cases out of .221 Fireball, weighed , primer pockets uniformed, flash holes reamed.I have 20 gr Hornadys and 25 gr Hornadys, both moly and non-moly. Powders in inventory most suitable are, H-4891, Vita V.-133,H-322, H-335. All the primers . I'm ready to get serious, any advise? My only load last summer was H-335 and 20gr moly's to about 4,080fps using Fed 205's the crown was off so I never got it tweaked, but the time has come. Any Mach IV shooters out there? Thanks.---Shoot Safe---montdoug

Doug,

I assume you meant H4198? If so, that powder performs the best for me in my 3 M4's, altho' I am starting to play with some Benchmark, too. Start with about 16.2 or so of H4198 with a 20, work up from there. My Coopers have a pretty generous leade, so no chance of a bullet touching, even the 25 BT's, but they still shoot VERY well, so I won't sweat it. I have found that the 17's like some jump, anyway......

I have shot some really small groups with H322, but couldn't get the velocity that I thought I could. H335 does fine for me for fireforming, but couldn't get the accuracy that I thought I could. Haven't tried the V-V powders in the M4's, but I know other guys that love the 130.

Try www.saubier.com for more info.........

Rich

Of you powders you listed, my runaway favorite would be the N-133. I have seen some of Crows targets and can testify that the H-4198 shoots in his, but I just don't care for that powder. I load for prairie dogs and H-4198 just does not meter well enough to be dropped directly from the measure. I just sold my Cooper, but it loved N-133 and Benchmark.

But if you say you want to get serious, you need to get some serious bullets. Get hold of some Berger 25's (not the MEF) or Woodchuck Den 25's. I can just about guarantee that these will outshoot either of the Hornadys. Good luck buddy!

Dan C

Thanks for the response's, Crow your assumption is exactly right, I'm glad I reload with more precision than I type. After seeing what the rifle will do (starting tomarrow) my shooting will all be varmints,with that in mind I want to shoot something frangible and would sacriffice a little accuracy towards that goal. I have a neco set up for moly as well as some wax from Todd Kindler at the Woodchuck Den, where do you guys stand on the coated bullet issue, I'm afraid I'm afflicted with Marine training and suffer with being a clean freak, I've yet to shoot any long strings and I'm a bit worried about copper fouling. Think I'll start with VV-133 as I have 6lbs of it and I agree the H-4198 needs to be weighed due to poor metering. Whats your poison in primers? Thanks for the help.---Shoot Safe---montdoug

I've turned kinda anti-moly the last couple years. The only coating I use right now is what you have, the Woodchuck Den wax. Only use that stuff on my prairie dog loads for high volume. It will wipe off in you pocket so it's for use on boxed ammo only. I have not seen any benefit from it yet, or any disadvantage. I hope to see increased throat life, we shall see!

I use Rem 7 1/2 primers in all my .223-base stuff, mainly to simplify. I have had great luck with those and the WSR, but prefer the 7 1/2 in the Mach IV. It's the thicker cup thing again which I'm sure you've heard of.....It's not just an old wives tale!

For varmints I honestly have not seen much difference in terminal performance between various 17 bullets. Consequently, I use the tight point higher BC bullets like the Kindler or Berger match. If your Cooper likes the V-max 20 it is the obvious choice due to it's great BC and velocity advantage. My Cooper shot so-so with them so I stuck with the 25's.....

Dan C

Dan C, I haven't gotten anti moly yet but I'm a lot less convinced than I was 7 or 8 years ago. I hear it's a dessicant and attracts moisture so be sure to use a brush, sure not the same song they were singing when the Berger's were talking about shooting a whole bench match without cleaning. I called Walt when I first got this rifle his recomendation was 22grainers, I'll work on some of the custom bullets after I get a quick load ready for prairie dogs and rock chucks, the season is upon us. This rifle took longer to arrive than it was supposed to last year, and then had some problems , so I've been trying to hunt with it for a year and a half and still haven't pulled it off. Loaded tonight, I agree with you on the 7 1/2 's , far and away the most accurate in my 6BR. Used the 20 gr V Max's , loaded some with VV-133, and some with H-4198, got my fingers crossed for the morning , hit the range and if all goes well chucks in the afternoon. Thanks again.---Shoot Safe---montdoug

MontDoug, Hi,.....I just bought a Cooper Varminter
in .17 M4 and your first post has me concerned.
Was the rifle not up to par when you received it?
If you had to send it back, that surely is a
case of quality control failure (I'm guessing here)
Maybe I'm over confident the rifle should
duplicate the factory test target with stated load, but it seems many times this can't be done and then one starts thinking of all the things
that can go wrong.
Glad you got it worked out.
I want to add too; I jsut read a post on another
forum where a Cooper M4 shooter said his rifle
never did like the Hornady bullets. Could never
get a good group, and went to the Starkes and they were great,but
now Starke is out of business. I'm sure Berger
little pills are worth a try too.
Thanks, Scott

[ 04-20-2003, 18:47: Message edited by: Scott S. ]

Hi Scott S.
I'd like to tell ya the rifle shot like a dream yesterday unfortunately it didn't. 3/4 inch to an 1 1/4 with two different bullets, two different powders. Stepped up 3/tenths at a time on powder charges, ( lot of shootin ), having said that I'd like to tell you about my experiences with Cooper Arm,s in Stevenville Mt. A lot of places make great firearms, in a perfect world they all shoot bug holes right out of the box. This ain't a perfect world. Whether it's a $1000.00 Cooper or a $5,000.00 Jarrett occasionally there's a mistake, then you get to see what the companys really like. I have a Cooper Montana varminter in .22 K Hornet, it shot literal one hole groups right out of the box, .2's and .3's , no kidding, fast barrel, 3,250 fps with a 40 grainer with less than a max load, everything you could ask for,( did I mention a great trigger? ). When I got the .17 bug first rifle I thought of was Cooper. It took a long time to get it because of their well deserved popularity, and the store I ordered through only orders one at a time. When I got the rifle it shot poorly, that's when I got to know the folks at Cooper. Customer service guy at Cooper is a fella named Rob, what ever their paying him it isn't enough, he's been there all the way . He never ducks calls, he's looked at all the angles. At first we thought it was the crown , it wasn't, maybe bedding-- no way. Long and the short of it is the guns gone back to them twice, when I called Rob today he said" Thats it were putting a new barrel on it." There is absolutely no doubt in my mind by the time we are done this rifle will shoot as well as 99% of the Coopers do right out of the box, which is to say GREAT! There's very few companys who stand behind their product like that. Everyone makes mistakes, with a lot of gun companies your on your own, not Cooper, they warranty this rifle to shoot 1/2 inch groups, it will. Now that I've scared hell out of you I'm willing to bet $5.00 to a hole in a doughnut yours shoots bug holes right out of the box, on the off chance it doesn't, call 406-777-0373 and talk to Rob, it will! Companies like Cooper that build the odd-ball stuff deserve a lot of credit, where else do you get a .17 MachIV or Tac .20 for a thousand bucks with a half inch guarantee? Now for the good part. After shooting at the range we went gopher and chuck hunting. It's not shooting up to Cooper standards, but you can shoot a lot of varmints with a gun shooting inch groups. I shot 5 chucks, the farthest was 359 yards,( with a range finder )really whacks em. I also shot about 10 gophers (their really ground squirrels) TALK ABOUT A RAT SPREADER!!!! your gonna love it , keep me posted.---Shoot Safe---montdoug

[ 04-22-2003, 07:38: Message edited by: montdoug ]

Montdoug: I had a 17 MachIV made on a Remington action about 6 years ago and have simply been overjoyed with its performance ever since! I use the wonderful 25 grain Berger MEF's (Moly-coated of course) with Remington 221 Fireball brass and Federal 205M (Match) primers. I use the Federal 205M's in all of my small Rifle primered cartridges. They cost a bit more but they are worth it in my experience.
The powder I use is good old W748! It sure performs well for me. The Bergers a poking along at 3,527 FPS from my 26 1/2" Shilen heavy barreled rig. But the accuracy is splendid and the Varmints fall when hit like they have been electrocuted!
Good luck with this new (or adjusted) Cooper! I know a lot of companies that would not even listen to your concerns regarding 3/4"+ grouping accuracy! The Rifles once having left the company and gotten into the hands of various people fall prey to lots of variables - everything from poor scope mounting jobs to poorly constructed handloads and various shooting habits and abilities. I highly commend the Cooper folks for aiding your situation. Good for them!
Be sure and try the Bergers as the two different bullets of theirs I tried were both really accurate! I have not tried any bullets other than several 25 grainers in my Rifle (no 20's or 30's).
I was out in Oregon a few years ago and killed several BIG Chucks at 325 yards with this loading! All were killed instantly with no waddling or wagging! That bullet at that speed is LETHAL on Varmints of all sizes!
Good luck!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Montdoug, I applaud you for not beating up on Cooper over this. You've handled it like a gentlemen. They are a fine company and I too am confident that you will have a hummer when it is over and done.........which I hope is soon!

Dan C

In reference to Coopers shooting as well as the proof target sent with each rifle...

Those groups are shot at 50 yards. That doesn't make Coopers bad but does explain how they usually get better groups that we can. Additionally, someone that shoots proof groups all day is bound to be a darned good shot. The proof sent with mine showed a single hole just slightly larger than bullet diameter.

My 6br Cooper can shoot ragged holes at 100 yards when I'm doing my part. Usually 2's - 4's if there is no wind.

Mountdoug, I bought a Cooper .17M4 and took possession on April 1/03. I'm sorry to say, but have had exactly the same unfortunate experience you have had. Sent the gun back about a week after receiving. My smallest group (only 1) was about an inch. Everything else was 1 1/2-2 inches @ 100. I'm waiting for the new barrel and the return. I must sat that Rob has been Outstanding to work with! The thing that is upsetting to me, is how did their shooter get that 3 shot 1 holer?? There's no way! Anybody got the answer??
tx al

MontDoug, thanks for your reply and confidence in
Cooper rifles. I really look forward to shooting
it. It's like most things in life....you pay your
money and take your chances, but at least Cooper
will make it right.
Archer, those one hole groups as you know are shot from about 40 yards indoors but will still
indicate the rifle "should" shoot .5 MOA (100 yards) with a no wind condition.
I'd like to know your ammo. Was it Coopers factory stuff? I've called twice to Coopers,
I still cannot get a velocity from Cooper on the .17 M4 ammo
and I still think that is kinda strange. Cooper
DOES NOT LOAD that ammo, it is farmed out to
another loader. The 17M4 is loaded with a 20 grain Vmax or a 25 grain (Hornady) HP. They will
give you the powder data and tell you the load was
shot with the 20 grain Vmax. But no FPS specs on
a standard 24 inch barrel!?!
I just paid my money.......and will take my
chances......as MontDoug stated, as far as a
factory M4 rifle, it is the only game in town
and for "only" a thousand bucks.
FWIW; last fall at my local range, a shooter was
trying out his Jarrett .30-06 Improved for his
upcoming elk hunt. Off the bench on bags and a
dozen loads with different recommended powders
and bullets from KJ, his best group (center to center) at 100 yards was one and one quarter inch.
But back to your situation; if a barrel will in
fact shoot a one hole group at 40 yards, why won't
it shoot an easy .5 MOA at 100 yards? With no wind
I think it should if the shooter is capable.
Major John Plaster, believes many many shooters
can not shoot .5 MOA on any given day even in good
conditions, many things must go right that day.
But he believes that most experienced shooters can
shoot .75 MOA on any given day and a .5 or smaller
on their good days. I dunno.
Good luck with your Cooper.
Scott

Mountdog, I've got a 17" XP-100 in M. IV, and love it. I'm shooting the 30's at around 3400 with H4198. I can't remember what the twist is (i'll have to patch it one of these days to find out), but i've got some of Todd's 30 Golds to try. A lot of guys believe the 30's are too heavy for the case but i like the higher B.C., although admittedly i haven't done any comparisons either way to determine whether they really have any practical advantage afield.