I have posted this in the European forum also, but reckon I might get a widder viewing here -

Would love to hear about experiences of this calibre, first or second hand knowledge!

I have looked on all the various related sites on the internet and can see mixed opinions about this calibre. Personally I reckon it boils down too the various other 20 cal users knocking a factory produced rifle, most of the others are custom makes, therefore maybe better tolerances etc so better accuracy? (With factory rifles you generaly either get a good one or a baddy!).

Was thinking along the lines of a Howa - have got a concern that it is a long action? any need to be concerned? Does it have a long throat, therefore a long "bullet jump" from neck to rifling (anybody loading for this in the UK?).

Cost is a consideration but have gone down the custom route before and I don't have any regrets of the expense due to the performance achieved, but it is hard to swallow at the time!

I am looking for a crow and fox rifle....Should I look at a different 20 cal or even a .223???

I have both .223 and .204. The .204 is a sweet,flat shooting, no noticable recoil gun. I have a CZ Kevlar Varmint, CZ Varmint (wood) and a Browning A-bolt II SSA in the .204 and all three are real tack drivers. I have more fun shooting the .204 than I do my .223's, but bought ammo is cheaper for the .223 and about the same if you hand load. I don't own a Howa, but I have a couple of friends who do and it is a very, very good gun.

It is simply the best squirrel, prarie-dog, small varmint caliber ever made. Economical, easy on barrels, VERY accurate.

The only weakness it might have would be against cartridges in the .22-250 or swift class against coyotes. It shoots as flat and far as either, but the light bullets lack penetration. Although, I suspect the 45 gr. Hornady puts it equall to the .223 in this area (but I haven't used them).

I have two .204s: an encore and a savage w/ a custom barrel w/ 1-10 twist. With the right handloads, the encore runs in the high .2s to low .4s. The savage runs in the high .1s to high .2s. Many guns won't shoot the hornady 40s unless they have a twist faster than the factory 1-12, but usually will shot nosler 40s or Sierra 39s (as is the case w/ the encore).

quote:

I have looked on all the various related sites on the internet and can see mixed opinions about this calibre. Personally I reckon it boils down too the various other 20 cal users knocking a factory produced rifle, most of the others are custom makes, therefore maybe better tolerances etc so better accuracy? (With factory rifles you generally either get a good one or a baddy!).

Interesting observation, and your most certainly right!
About all I shoot anymore is small caliber wildcats. One of them developed by a fella named Todd Kindler is called the .20 Tactical (I hate the name but love the round), basically a .223 case with the shoulders blown out to 30 degrees and pushed back a bit. When it first came out there was some serious hot loading going on and using IMI Military spec cases with their tougher primer pockets guys were claiming 4,350fps the Hornadys first .20 offering the 33 grain V-Max.
I had one built on a model 700 Varmint with a 26 inch Pac-Nor 3 groove 1 in 12 twist Super Match, it shoots in the .2's and .3's. I have two carefully worked up to working loads for it, one uses H4198 to Move that 33 V-Max at 4,175ish and the other uses Benchmark and a 40 V-Max for just a skitch under 3,900fps.
About the time I was up to my ears in this project Ruger and Hornady brought out the new .204. All the wildcatters beefed it for a number of reasons: much longer throat on the .204 (Factory lawyer proofing), better brass available for the .20 Tact (all that swell .223 stuff), more efficient, more performance etc.etc. Most all seemed to feel the .20 Tactical was the one that should have been standardized, not the .204. So comparisons began.
I wasn't so sure but it was interesting to me. Like you it seemed an unfair comparison, Factory, round, rifle and barrel against, custom reamers, custom barrels and custom smithing. Nothing fair about that comparison.
With all that in mind I purchased a CZ527 Varmint Kevlar in factory trim. I had a top small caliber smith take a slice off the factory barrel that seemed to want to shoot as is then re-chamber it with a custom .204 reamer with minimum specs and zero free-bore , just like a custom (except a factory barrel that as I said is sure no slouch. I was thinking all along if it didn't work well I'd just re-barrel and turn it into another wildcat that has my eye on the .222 case, the .20 Duster. (WARNING, if you do the stuff mentioned to the .204 you have removed all the free-bore designed into it and factory ammo is grossly overloaded as it will now be stuffed into the lands. You now have a full-on wildcat. .204 book data other that just starting is all fubar as well. Works great, accuracy's better, ya use less powder to get the same or more velocity but it is INDEED!! different and not to be taken lightly).
Warning out of the way I can tell you that after carefully developing the loads for the new chamber it was "Literally" within a few fps to the .20Tact with both the 32 and 40 grain loads.
Here's a picture of a 5 shot group shot with the custom chambered .204 CZ with a factory barrel. This was shot using RL10X in WW cases with 7 1/2BR primers and the 39 grain Sierra BlitzKing it's favorite bullet. It clocks just under 3,900fps and with it's BC it is indeed a long range rat wrecking machine!!!



Long story short, it's as you suspected. If the playing field is leveled there in a very minimal difference between these two (ballistically none actually).
Sorry for all the wind, hope maybe some of it is applicable to your interest and helps.

Well to those that know me, my response is yestedray's news...

I don't see a reason for a 204.... It won't do anything a handloaded 223 will do... components for the 223 are much more plentiful and cheaper...

a lot more data exists on the 223.. and bullet selection is much more readily available...and infinitely more diverse.. 30 to 80 grain bullets...

The 204 is just another reason for a mnaufacturer to come out with another cartridge, to try and sell more firearms...

I have no problem with that... but for practicality reasons, the 204 is a trend in my book... it will burn out...

But if you like playing with Wildcats, ( as I do), then a 204 is a consideration.... but I'd go with a 20 Tactical as mentioned by Doug above.. or even a 20 Vartag ( a 221 Fireball necked down to 20 cal).. it is even more powder efficient, or the Vartag Turbo, which is the 222 necked down to 20 caliber...

or look at the new 17 Fireball, which essentailly is the factory producing the old 17 Mach 4....

The 204 mystique just has always eluded me....

and those that say it kicks less than a 223, as a reason for purchasing one.. (well if you haven't had an accident and have a bad shoulder).. if you can't handle the recoil of a 223, then you should take up shooting an airgun then... or get a daisy redrider...

cheers
seafire

In my limited experience with the .204, I definatly wouldn't get one in a Contender Pistol. I got to try out a friends .204 for about a month in his pistol. I was able to make some 100+ yard kills on prairie dogs but they were not any better than the ones with my .223 rifle. You really need a longer than 14" barrel to get the full potenial of this cartridge, especially if you are not hand loading for it.

quote:

and those that say it kicks less than a 223, as a reason for purchasing one.. (well if you haven't had an accident and have a bad shoulder).. if you can't handle the recoil of a 223, then you should take up shooting an airgun then... or get a daisy redrider...

Seafire ole buddy your getting close to the point but in my humble estimation your missing the "big" point by just a tad.
It "Isn't" the recoil in and of its self that is the carrot, obviously the .223 has no real recoil to speak of. It's being able to see hits (or misses) through the scope with the lighter .20 bullets where the .223 takes you off target albeit just for a second (at least mine sure do). I know it doesn't sound like a big deal but trust me when popping p-dogs at 500 yards it's a huge advantage. Ya really have to experience it to get the actual awareness of just what that really means. It's even significantly more pronounced with the .17 but that's another topic.

One other thing I'd like to do is point out the actual ballistic differences between my custom chambered .204 or .20 Tactical using the 39 grain Sierra in each as opposed to the .223 load I use which has a 40 BlitzKing also but in .22 cal instead of .20. As I mentioned both my .204 and .20 Tactical have near identical ballistics, others rifles may vary.
The .20's I rounded up a few fps as I did with the .223, 3,670ish to 3,700fps. The .204 and .20 Tact went from 3,880ish actual to 3900fps. Here's the chart on the .20's that are only slightly faster but have a much better BC due to the bullet length per caliber issue with both using 40 grainers. These are all my actual working loads for the rifles in my safe.
These are a 200 yard zero.
Look at both graphs and drop to 500 yards. Pay particular attention to "drop" "energy delivered" and "wind drift". If those figures matter to ya great, if not stay with that wonderful old .223, great round! To me they do matter cause of the number of rodent pests I eradicate for rancher buddies at long distances and usually in wind.

By the way I have all those rounds you mentioned except the VTT and I'm close to building a wildcat that's real close to it but with 40 degree shoulders instead of 30, it's called a .20 Duster and was designed by a good friend of mine from Wyoming. All that said I'm inclined to think that possibly the most practical for volume rodenting as well as cartridge efficiency, barrel heat and just plain fun is the .20 VarTarg. What a gas, but then anything based on the .221 by way of .222 has to be a winner.
Here's the actual data off a ballistics program using a 70 degree ambient temp, 5000 ft elevation (cause that's where I shoot) and a 200 yard zero.
I do concur however that the .223 is more versatile by virtue of heavier bullets etc so for some that sure might make it a better option, say if you have only a few rifles or are trying to make one serve many needs. Your sure right there, but for my uses with all due respect the hot .20's using 40 grain rat smackers shoots circles around it.


Range Elevation Velocity Energy ETA Drop Max Y 10mph Wind Deflect
0 yds -1.50 in 3900 fps 1317 fpe 0.000 sec 0.00 in -1.50 in 0.00 in
25 yds -0.74 in 3814 fps 1260 fpe 0.019 sec 0.07 in -0.58 in 0.04 in
50 yds -0.13 in 3731 fps 1205 fpe 0.039 sec 0.29 in -0.52 in 0.16 in
75 yds 0.33 in 3648 fps 1153 fpe 0.060 sec 0.67 in -0.43 in 0.36 in
100 yds 0.62 in 3568 fps 1102 fpe 0.081 sec 1.22 in -0.28 in 0.63 in
125 yds 0.74 in 3489 fps 1054 fpe 0.102 sec 1.93 in -0.10 in 0.99 in
150 yds 0.69 in 3411 fps 1008 fpe 0.123 sec 2.81 in 0.14 in 1.41 in
175 yds 0.44 in 3335 fps 963 fpe 0.146 sec 3.89 in 0.43 in 1.94 in
200 yds -0.00 in 3261 fps 921 fpe 0.168 sec 5.16 in 0.78 in 2.57 in
225 yds -0.65 in 3187 fps 880 fpe 0.192 sec 6.64 in 1.19 in 3.29 in
250 yds -1.51 in 3115 fps 840 fpe 0.216 sec 8.34 in 1.66 in 4.10 in
275 yds -2.58 in 3044 fps 802 fpe 0.240 sec 10.25 in 2.20 in 5.00 in
300 yds -3.90 in 2975 fps 766 fpe 0.265 sec 12.39 in 2.81 in 5.99 in
325 yds -5.44 in 2906 fps 731 fpe 0.290 sec 14.77 in 3.49 in 7.07 in
350 yds -7.26 in 2838 fps 698 fpe 0.316 sec 17.42 in 4.26 in 8.29 in
375 yds -9.35 in 2772 fps 665 fpe 0.343 sec 20.35 in 5.12 in 9.62 in
400 yds -11.73 in 2706 fps 634 fpe 0.371 sec 23.56 in 6.08 in 11.07 in
425 yds -14.40 in 2642 fps 604 fpe 0.399 sec 27.06 in 7.13 in 12.64 in
450 yds -17.38 in 2578 fps 576 fpe 0.427 sec 30.87 in 8.28 in 14.31 in
475 yds -20.66 in 2515 fps 548 fpe 0.457 sec 34.98 in 9.54 in 16.08 in
500 yds -24.29 in 2454 fps 521 fpe 0.487 sec 39.45 in 10.92 in 18.00 in


Here's my .223 using the 40grain BlitzKing rounded up to 3700fps with a 200 yard zero.

Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy ETA Drop Max Y 10mph Wind Deflect
0 yds -1.50 in 3700 fps 1216 fpe 0.000 sec 0.00 in -1.50 in -0.00 in
25 yds -0.63 in 3582 fps 1139 fpe 0.021 sec 0.08 in -0.58 in 0.06 in
50 yds 0.06 in 3467 fps 1068 fpe 0.042 sec 0.33 in -0.51 in 0.23 in
75 yds 0.58 in 3356 fps 1000 fpe 0.064 sec 0.76 in -0.40 in 0.53 in
100 yds 0.91 in 3247 fps 936 fpe 0.087 sec 1.39 in -0.24 in 0.97 in
125 yds 1.02 in 3141 fps 876 fpe 0.110 sec 2.22 in -0.01 in 1.54 in
150 yds 0.92 in 3038 fps 820 fpe 0.134 sec 3.27 in 0.28 in 2.24 in
175 yds 0.59 in 2937 fps 766 fpe 0.159 sec 4.55 in 0.63 in 3.08 in
200 yds 0.00 in 2839 fps 716 fpe 0.185 sec 6.08 in 1.07 in 4.08 in
225 yds -0.86 in 2742 fps 668 fpe 0.212 sec 7.89 in 1.59 in 5.26 in
250 yds -2.02 in 2648 fps 623 fpe 0.240 sec 9.99 in 2.20 in 6.60 in
275 yds -3.47 in 2556 fps 580 fpe 0.269 sec 12.39 in 2.92 in 8.10 in
300 yds -5.25 in 2465 fps 540 fpe 0.299 sec 15.12 in 3.74 in 9.78 in
325 yds -7.38 in 2376 fps 502 fpe 0.330 sec 18.20 in 4.68 in 11.64 in
350 yds -9.92 in 2290 fps 466 fpe 0.362 sec 21.69 in 5.77 in 13.75 in
375 yds -12.89 in 2205 fps 432 fpe 0.395 sec 25.60 in 7.00 in 16.08 in
400 yds -16.30 in 2122 fps 400 fpe 0.430 sec 29.96 in 8.40 in 18.64 in
425 yds -20.17 in 2040 fps 370 fpe 0.466 sec 34.78 in 9.96 in 21.39 in
450 yds -24.55 in 1960 fps 341 fpe 0.503 sec 40.11 in 11.72 in 24.39 in
475 yds -29.47 in 1882 fps 315 fpe 0.542 sec 45.98 in 13.68 in 27.63 in
500 yds -35.11 in 1807 fps 290 fpe 0.583 sec 52.56 in 15.92 in 31.25 in

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:

and those that say it kicks less than a 223, as a reason for purchasing one.. (well if you haven't had an accident and have a bad shoulder).. if you can't handle the recoil of a 223, then you should take up shooting an airgun then... or get a daisy redrider...

cheers
seafire

Red Rider maybe. Lots of spring piston airguns kick more than my .223s do.

It seem that we have to go through this “I don’t see a reason for it†thing about 2 or 3 times a year. We (the non-believers) must be beaten about the head and shoulders for not seeing that there is no other god (the 223) in short varmint ammunition that can service a higher propose or do it better.

When used as prescribed (Load, Aim, Fire), the 204 Ruger out performs the 223 past 200 yards. It’s the only “little guy†I own that really keeps up with the 22-250 and the Swift. The 17 Remington works well, but only on very calm days, the 204 can take on a little wind.

But than again, we’re talking about the round’s capabilities of shooting varmints, not its unintended use as a deer hunting cartridge.

Some very interesting points here everyone, thankyou.

Has no one any experience on the 204 in a Howa? I am concerned about the amount of freebore, am I worrying unduly (I will be home loading)?

Thanks

quote:

nightwalker uk
one of us
Picture of nightwalker uk

Posted Wed Nov 21 2007 1:31 AM
Some very interesting points here everyone, thankyou.

Has no one any experience on the 204 in a Howa? I am concerned about the amount of freebore, am I worrying unduly (I will be home loading)?

Thanks

Posts: 199 | Location: England | Registered: 09 January 2005

The free-bore is long but a lot of .204's seem to shoot very well anyway so as with any new rifle there is always a crap shoot factor.
Hornady and Ruger designed the round to be fast and according to a fellow at Hornaday it was also slotted to end up in semi autos such as the Mini-14 down the road so pressure was of paramount concern and as usual throat length was the easiest way to accommodate that concern. Not the best case for reloaders or extreme accuracy but in truth I'm sure it made the lawyers happy and that was the real issue to them as always (can't really blame em I guess). Truth is they hate the idea of us reloading anyway and want us all to buy taylor made for life.
As a handloader getting the ojive closer to the lands will most usually help accuracy but the fly in the ointment there is typically magazine length. Just speculating here but if a rifle was to have a longer magazine box I'd think the Howa might well be it, if not perhaps the box can be modified to add a little internal length.
My CZ prior to re-chambering actually shot quite well but it's favorite bullet is the 39 grain Sierra and the most accurate load developed had to be fed manually due to being longer than acceptable magazine length. Not coincidently the 39 Sierra BlitzKing was the only bullet that would get close to the lands albeit with minimal case-neck purchase on the bullet. Not a problem for me as I'm a single shot guy and put a blind follower in it anyway but if a repeater is important to you it could be an issue. Good luck and keep us posted. "GREAT VARMINT ROUND"! You'll love it!

Have been looking at the Remington website and see they are now introducing a varmint laminate thumbhole in 204, any body had a try with these?

Montdoug really appretiate your input and knowledge on this subject, thanks.

Nightwalker while I haven't tried one I believe your talking of the XR100. Quite an interesting rifle to me at least. It's based on the XP100 action which has a good reputation for accuracy, it was that bolt handgun in .221 fire Ball first brought out in the 60's. It is a single shot which makes the action more rigid and aids accuracy plus it has the 40X adjustable trigger in it that home adjusts from about 1 1/2lbs to probably 3lbs. I have a 40X with that trigger and like it a great deal. The rifle has a 26 inch tube that I should think would be a good length for the .204's capacity. It's a big rifle but the couple thumb-holes I've had allowed decent off hand control even though that is not the primary purpose of a rifle like this.
This last spring when Remington came out with the .17 Fireball I'd hoped the XR100 was a configuration they would offer it in but it was not to be so I ended up with a VSF instead. If you should end up with one keep us posted how it does, nice looking rifle with a great pedigree.

Bought a savage 12 VLP in the 204 last year. Had so much fun with it that I went out and bought another. A savage 12 BTVSS. A heavy barrel fluted stainless, laminated with the thumbhole grip. They are now my favorite varmint rigs.