I have an old Manlicher/Haenel rifle That an old friend "liberated" from a small town in Germany. He was British, participated in the Normandy invasion, went thru France and then Germany, happily on his way to
Berlin.
apparently the small-town Germans weren't happy to see them, and sniping by civilians was an unpleasant factor. Whenever this happened, the military guys would go from house to house and confiscate all arms, lay them out in the street and run over them with a tank. He spotted this beautiful little rifle, and grabbed it

It was originally a Europian version of a 25 Remington, marked maybe 6.3X 52. When the war was over, nobody could figure out what to shoot in it, so he got some bad advice to rechamber to 257 Robert.

I worked with him on a boat tooling project in Mexico, where he told me about the rifle, and when the project was finished he brought it by my shop in CA, and gave it to me.

I've shot several javelina with it, otherwise it's like new. The workmanship is great but the stock wood would be better off as a fencepost,and I love really good wood. It has a full rib and a half/octagonal barrel, which is marked C.G. Haenel on the starboard side and Suhl on port. The barrel is about 20.5 inches. It has set triggers. I know that Suhl was a builder of big guns for Hitler and was wiped out by bombing during the war, so I assume that this was made between the wars.

Anybody have an opinion?

I'm not interested in selling, just if it would be sacreligous to drill some holes in it for the mount, and then restock it

I'm 80 and can no longer shoot with open sights and am thinking about installing a scout scope on it.

Is the rifle a 'New Model' Mannlicher?
A mix of Mauser 98 and Mannlicher features?

A Mauser 98 5rd staggered box magazine and flush floor plate. A MAuser 98 bolt shroud w/ gas deflector. But the Mannlicher bolt handle forward of the rear ring and the Mannlicher split rear bridge to accomodate it.

Most of these carry the Haenel mfg name. There are a couple different models. I think one is the 1902 and a Model 1907 (o5?).
Differences are one has a Mannlicher style flat bolt handle. the other a turned down round knob. Each differs in the style of floor plate release.

Uusually 1/2 rd bbls and DST's.

A couple of Military contracts used the action. Paraguay,ect.

Here's an auction (closed) for a commercial rifle.
https://www.morphyauctions.com...el-bolt-rifle-35723/

The one in the auction is priced high because of the caliber and condition.
But the rifles themselves are not often seen and can have some good value.
Of course non-original alterations devalue them like any other firearm.

Scope mounting would most likely require bolt handle and safety alteration as well.

Thanks, 2152 (catchy name!). The rifle in the link you sent me is almost identical; mine has the flat bolt handle, no ingraving but looks to me to be a good rust blue. As I said, the stock on mine has very good work, but punky, course-grained wood.

I'm thinking about putting a scout scope on it because of the split bridge. I'll use it for javelina, which I hunt every year, and the scout scope won't be a problem because most shots are well under 200 yds. I've hunted them many times with this rifle and with an old 30-30. I usually hunt them these days with an old model 70 featherweight in .243, which I consider about perfect.

Thanks again.

Jerry, I am late to the party but, what you describe fits the Haenel Schonzeitbüchse or "off season/ varmint rifle". This model was indeed made in .25 Remington, though Haenel called it 25/35 randlos (rimless). The .25-35 Winchester aka 6.5x52R was well known in Germany, while "Remington" was mostly associated with outmoded blackpowder single shots and cheap plinking actions. DWM up to the 1930s offered both cartrridges with the same loads: 6.5x52R aka .25-35 Win, DWM case number 519, and 6.5x52 aka .25 Rem, case number 519A.
Since it has been rechambered, will the .257 run through the magazine? Is the floorplate release in the triggerguard or does it have a small button at the left rear of the magazine? There is not a lot to go on for pricing because these are the rarest of the Haenel's but, I am going to ask $1500 for mine and the loading dies. Here are pics of mine.

quote:

Originally posted by jerrymontgomery:
I have an old Manlicher/Haenel rifle That an old friend "liberated" from a small town in Germany. He was British, participated in the Normandy invasion, went thru France and then Germany, happily on his way to
Berlin.
apparently the small-town Germans weren't happy to see them, and sniping by civilians was an unpleasant factor. Whenever this happened, the military guys would go from house to house and confiscate all arms, lay them out in the street and run over them with a tank. He spotted this beautiful little rifle, and grabbed it

It was originally a Europian version of a 25 Remington, marked maybe 6.3X 52. When the war was over, nobody could figure out what to shoot in it, so he got some bad advice to rechamber to 257 Robert.

I worked with him on a boat tooling project in Mexico, where he told me about the rifle, and when the project was finished he brought it by my shop in CA, and gave it to me.

I've shot several javelina with it, otherwise it's like new. The workmanship is great but the stock wood would be better off as a fencepost,and I love really good wood. It has a full rib and a half/octagonal barrel, which is marked C.G. Haenel on the starboard side and Suhl on port. The barrel is about 20.5 inches. It has set triggers. I know that Suhl was a builder of big guns for Hitler and was wiped out by bombing during the war, so I assume that this was made between the wars.

Anybody have an opinion?

I'm not interested in selling, just if it would be sacreligous to drill some holes in it for the mount, and then restock it

I'm 80 and can no longer shoot with open sights and am thinking about installing a scout scope on it.

Are you able to provide pictures?

I study these rifles and track their pricing, and I can tell you their pricing can be all over the place depending on model, configuration, condition, and caliber.

I have bought several ranging from $350 to $1500, the linked example is an exception, that is, exceptionally good condition, and a very rare configuration and caliber.

There are several models and a plethora of variations along with even more subtle changes in features.

The main two models are the Model 1900, which is the "New Model" linked, and the Model 1909, which Joe Dean posted an example of.

https://www.myersarms.com/haenel

I started and have not finished a "technical comparison" and survey of the various models and variations, however have yet to finish it. The more of these rifles I find and buy, the more variants I discover.

Haenel is a very interested case as they worked in direct competition with Mauser, and while using similar concepts, such as a box magazine and gas shield, they had to completely rethink the designs to avoid patent infringement, which at this time period, Mauser aggressively pursued.

You'll see in the above link hte US patent for their unique scissor magazine spring, to work around Mauser's patented W magazine spring. A common place idea today, it was a revolutionary design in its day.

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Dean:
Jerry, I am late to the party but, what you describe fits the Haenel Schonzeitbüchse or "off season/ varmint rifle". This model was indeed made in .25 Remington, though Haenel called it 25/35 randlos (rimless). The .25-35 Winchester aka 6.5x52R was well known in Germany, while "Remington" was mostly associated with outmoded blackpowder single shots and cheap plinking actions. DWM up to the 1930s offered both cartrridges with the same loads: 6.5x52R aka .25-35 Win, DWM case number 519, and 6.5x52 aka .25 Rem, case number 519A.
Since it has been rechambered, will the .257 run through the magazine? Is the floorplate release in the triggerguard or does it have a small button at the left rear of the magazine? There is not a lot to go on for pricing because these are the rarest of the Haenel's but, I am going to ask $1500 for mine and the loading dies. Here are pics of mine.

When you decide to sell that rifle, please let me know.

Would you be willing to email me some pictures of the proof markings on the barrel and the serial numbers on the buttplate and barrel?

Joe- the stock looks identical except for two things; the cheekpiece is smaller on mine, and the pistol grip is similarly rounded, but smaller.

The 257 Robts feeds perfectly. The mag release is a button on the driver's side.

Fal- The serial # on the grip is 30562. i don't see a visible one on the action but I remember lots of stamping underneath. Looking at the photos, this must be the 1909 model.

When you finish your study, I'd love a copy. I'm probably too stupid to figure out how to enter photos. I'll give it a try, but don't hold your breath.

Thanks for responmding, guys.

Haenel is not a Mannlicher !
Heanel is a Commission 88 based sporter which in turn is a Louis Schlegelmilch modified Mauser 71/84. Examples of the Haenel 1909 closely follow the "Suhl style" of gun finishing making them typical examples of the "Suhl style"

This is roughly how it goes:
The Mauser 71/84 was originally built at Spandau. Louis Schlegelmilch worked for Mauser at Spandau. When the French trigger a arms race with the development of their Lebel and its new Cartridge the Germans answer in haste with their Commission 88 which at face value looks like a Mannlicher with its split rear bridge and bolt handle arrangement but is not! The only thing Mannlicher in the 88 is the Schlegelmilch modified Mannlicher straight magazine. It differs from the Mannlicher in that the cartridge package in the Mannlicher is top loaded while in the M88 it can be top and bottom loaded. ( as a side note Schlegelmilch designed his own gun for submission which never was considered and I believe no examples exist)

A patent dispute arises between Spandau and Styer because of the magazine and is settled when Styer is awarded part of the manufacturing responsibility for the M88.

So where does Haenel enter in the picture ?

Carl Gottlieb Haenel of Suhl is awarded manufacturing rights to the M88 for the Kaizer.

They in turn sporterize the M88 to come up with
the Heanel.... thus not a Mannlicher but actually a Schlegelmilch Mauser 71/84 without the modified Mannlicher magazine.

The most famous of the Haenel sporting rifles is the pattern 1907 in 7x57. Many of these were exported to South Africa and again in error are proffered by some as being Boer War rifles when in fact manufacture came 5 years after the conclusion of the Boer war. Then followed the later pattern 1909 in 7, 8 and 9mm.

The 1909 is also offered in the "misunderstood" 6.5 x 52 Rimless. Misunderstood in that in error it is equated to the US 25/35 which in fact is different to the 6.5x52 (DWM case number 519 ) The Rimmed version of this cartridge is case # 519A which in turn was possibly a RWS design ? Dimensionally the US 25/30 is close but not the same as the 6.5 x 52 R.
Haenel like Loewe was jewish and ironically their factories and expertise became pivotal in Nazi arms manufacture. Haenel was the principal manufacturing plant for Hugo Schmeisser designed Stg 44 assault rifle ( The grandfather of all assault rifles. Of late, 2020 in fact Haenel was awarded the contract to build Germany's newest principal assault rifle . This was however rescinded as I believe there is a change coming with regards to the cartridge and platform design for the whole of Nato including the US.

Fascinating! I have a very ragged copy of Frank deHause's book, where he describes the 88 and it's history. I haven't read the chapter on the 88 for 20-30 years, but will do so again.

Do you habve a feel for the strength of the 88? i've always used mild loads in mine, but I'm curious.

The Suhl 88's, and there are many examples of them in sporting form built by just about every gunmaker in the Suhl circle are good for about 4000 atm pressure which falls in line with the CIP service limit of 3900 bar. ie around 56,000 psi give or take for the 8mm.

They are a interesting rifle.

But there are many newer designs out there that are better and more practical.


The idea that older is always better doesn't make sense to me.

quote:

They are a interesting rifle.

But there are many newer designs out there that are better and more practical.

Off course there are ! that's hardly the point ! these are pieces and models of historical significance on the path to the modern firearm ! They are evolutionary building blocks from a time when the world was transitioning from BP to nitro based propellants, some mere interlopers that became obsolete because of flaws or economic pressure and others not only surviving but actually forming the basis of what we now view as the perfect bolt action for hunting or sporting rifles !

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
They are a interesting rifle.

But there are many newer designs out there that are better and more practical.


The idea that older is always better doesn't make sense to me.

Prairie Dog Shootist,
You post on almost every thread.
Your daily or hourly comments prove that many things that are totally logical to us do not make sense to you!

What are the scope mounts for that rifle?

They are quick detachable. Press a button on the rear which releases it, pivot the rear up and slide it out of the front mount. Reattach in reverse and zero isn't changed.

"Germans answer in haste with their Commission 88 which at face value looks like a Mannlicher with its split rear bridge and bolt handle arrangement but is not!"

Mannlicher did design a straightpull rifle 1882 but the Austrians felt it were to complicated then he simplified it so it went to a wedge locked still straightpull Mannlicher designed magazine rifle with clip loading, blackpowder cartridge (Austro-Hungarian 1886).
The Austria Hungarian empire felt they had to catch up to the French (Lebel 1886)and the 1888 German commission rifle. So Mannlicher redesigned it first to smallbore 8mm blackpowder and later he went back to his first straightpull mechanism and moved the locking lugs to the front to make it suitable to smokeless powder, model 1890 carbine 1895 army rifle.

One of my Haenel's (I'll call them New Model Mannlichers, I think that's how they were listed in the old retail catalogs)
is a 9.3 caliber.
I'm guessing it was likely a 9.3x57mm.
Then some rube decided to get more steam out of the gun or maybe just an ammo issue,,,
So at some point the chamber was recut w/a 35 Whelan reamer.

A chamber cast confirms the 35 Whelan chamber as well as the 9.3 barrel caliber.
I did just for giggles load some starting load 35 Whelens and put them thru it.
Even at 25m, they printed all over a large 25yd rapid fire pistol target.
I expected as much. The bore condition is not very good either,,and that's being gracious!

A beautiful rifle. I haven't had it out in a while. I think this one has the round knob bolt handle.
The other Haenel I have is the their model with the flat spoon type. That rifle is in 9x57Mauser.
The floor plate releases are different for the Models but I can't recall which has the side release and which the inside the guard.

I'll figure something out for the 9.3cal.
Maybe a 9.3x62 reamer would clean up the 35Whelen chamber. At least that'd leave me with a decent chambering. The bore condition I could live with at that point.

I don't know if the bbl would be a candidate for a rebore to anything suitable as they are not the heaviest walled bbl's around.
Maybe a reline to 25 or 30Remington and keep the loads down.
I reload for both of those.

Very nice classic rifles. Different and that's what draws me to the stuff.

I have 4 of the 88 Sporters as well. All in 8mm. Different names on them though IIRC at least one is a Haenel marked.

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Dean:
They are quick detachable. Press a button on the rear which releases it, pivot the rear up and slide it out of the front mount. Reattach in reverse and zero isn't changed.

PM &email sent

As an old rifle that is long way from its original form it’s not worth very much. Perhaps a few hundred dollars at most. If it had a famous owner, or really interesting markings then it probably has some collector value.

As it is, the value to you is the story behind it etc - sentimental etc. Just use it and enjoy it.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym SR20:
As an old rifle that is long way from its original form it’s not worth very much. Perhaps a few hundred dollars at most. If it had a famous owner, or really interesting markings then it probably has some collector value.

As it is, the value to you is the story behind it etc - sentimental etc. Just use it and enjoy it.

Thanks, I plan on it !

Over my life I have been fortunate enough to have stumbled over many "not worth very much" rifles.
Including old iron framed Henry's, old cased Colts "muzzle loaders", old Jeffery 404's, Old Springfield sporters ( by Minar and Wundhammer) and numerous rifles and shotguns overlooked by the modern experts.