Me and a couple others already hijacked one thread discussing small cals on deer. So I'll start a new one for this question. I'll give a couple of my theories for folks to shoot down. What determines exit size? I've seen 6 inch size from a 30-06 with a 150 grain bullet for example. I think if you took a 150 grain 30 cal bullet and hammered and hammered and then some more to make it 6 inches,you'd have some flimsy foil that wouldn't cut. So I dont think the bullet expands that much is a given. One guy that had sutured people said the needle goes in easily but the skin stretches way out before it exits and his theory was a bullet pushes the skin way out and it pops like a balloon. Liquids cant be compressed and animals are 90% liquid so a bullet is putting pressure on liquids and being unable to compress it puts a plunger effect on things. Another theory is that it's like the wake of a boat and dragging liquid in it's path that can't be compressed. What do you think causes the large exit?

Some years ago a study was done in France on the effects of different calibers on goats at different ranges. Someone here might remember it and have access. It'll answer your question.

I think that was the Fackler study but don't hold me to that.

LWD

Carpetman,
I think he answer to your question lies in this:
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNINJ.html
Essentially with this statement:

"If the exit wound is "shored" or abutted by a firm support such as clothing, furniture, or building materials, then the exit wound may take on appearances of an entrance wound"

Therefore, IMO, it is the stretching of the skin due to the pressure wave that causes the skin to burst and cause such a large exit hole combined with the mushroom which gives a greater surface area to create the pressure wave. IE, a solid travelling at 3000fps may still have a larger exit wound (than entrance) however the soft nose will be much larger (mushroom), creating a larger pressure wave and therefore larger exit wound.

Secondary bone fragments can create a large exit, even with a non-expanding bullet.

But there are tons of other scenarios that can come into play.

Carpetman,
Being from Aussie land we don't get groundhogs, do you get them in Texas?
But either way my exaggerated point is that if you hit one of these with a fast moving pill all you get is an exit wound. Massive pressure that can't be contained.

Sorry, yes I also agree that bone fragements, secondary shrapnel also contributes.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
Secondary bone fragments can create a large exit, even with a non-expanding bullet.

But there are tons of other scenarios that can come into play.

Completely agree with Bobby. Even stuff inside the digestive tract can become Secondary Missle Fragments(Acorns, Pecans, Beans, Corn, etc.) if the Shot happens to stray through there.

But..., the Bullet has a HUGE "impact"( ) on how large the Exit ends up being.

Big Diameter(to start with), Fast Bullets(much more than a speeding locomotive) with retained 2x-3x Expansion tend to leave Large(less likely to clog) Exits.

Scarab--We don't have ground hogs here,but we do have prarie dogs and jackrabbits and same principle--with fast moving bullets you vaporize them. I have shot a bunch of jacks with cast bullets in .22 cal---these would be 58 grains but only about 2000-2200 fps and they kill em but you don't get the explosiveness---the extra 1,000 fps or so with jacketed gives. But dead is dead and the cast creates less blast inside a pickup. Guess I could lube the cast bullets with Ex-Lax and blow shit out of em.

quote:

Originally posted by the Underguned Grandpa:
Hot Core--Certainly not flaming with you and I'm enjoying the exchange. We agree and we disagree--hell that's good or we might have both married the same woman.

Try to bring her back and the fight will be on!

quote:

Once a person gets enough kills with a .243,they will understand what can go wrong with them. What is enough? My son in law was not my son in law yet when we first started hunting together. He was still a teen-ager. He had a .243 and I switched to a .243 so that one or the other of us would have ammo. Throw in the truckload of deer my grandson also killed with .243 and there is plenty of experience there. We can kill 4 a year here. I did have one bad experience with the .243. I tried using cast bullets and results were horrible. I had a load with cast that was accurate and actually exceeded the velocity of my jacketed load. My grandson shot a spike that ran a few yards and stopped and it was then on my side. I took a shot and the deer took off never to be seen again and nary a drop of blood to be found. I cant believe either of us missed,I felt my shot should have been a good one. I've not seen wounds healing or sealing themself and very adequate exit hole. Maybe that happened with the cast? I don't know. I'll not experiment anymore with cast on deer in .243.

That is the problem when trying to discuss the topic - limited experiences can lead to misleading impressions.

Had a lot of Tracking to do over the years because people were convinced the smaller calibers worked just fine. I'm not saying they will not "Kill" the Game, simply saying if you observe enough Kills made(or shots taken) with the Inadequate Cartridges, you will have;
1. A much higher percentage of totally lost Game.
2. Longer time duration Tracking jobs which can result in the loss of the meat even if the Deer is found.
3. It also strains friendships when 8-20 people have to stop Hunting trying to locate Game that has been shot at and not quickly recovered.

quote:

I hear you on the bigger and faster and better---but dead is dead and if that was being obtained with smaller,don't see how it got improved.

I understand your thoughts, just disagree - due to a lot of time looking for minute specks of Blood.

quote:

A 30-06 is not as good as a magnum--the magnum ensures a clean kill at distance due to flatter trajectory,quicker flight and more retained energy. In my books if you need more distance than the 30-06 provides,you are shooting them way too far off. Don't ask me what range is reasonable--I don't have a definite answer.

I understand your predicament. We have some places where 70yds is a long shot and 25yds is typical. I like the older 30-30, 35Rem and 357Mag or 44Mag Revolvers in those situations. Recently upgraded a 444Mar to a new 444Mar XLR which seems to leave Nice Exits, unlike the weenie calibers.

quote:

The 30-06 is going to shoot through and go a few more yards--for example if it shoots through and goes 50 more yards where the mags shoot through and goes 100 yards--so what? All said the mag is probably going to kill it 75 milliseconds sooner. If you need more than a 30-06,my take is you need a bigger cal not a faster .30.

Nothing wrong at all with Bigger Cartridges!!! I do appreciate you agreeing that BIGGER is better!

quote:

If you can haul your families groceries home in a pick up-- an 18 wheeler really isn't going to do a better job.

You obviously have never wasted money on a Ford Ranger with the Mitsubishi Tranny. Get one to save some money on gas, put a 6% over-size Mudder on it, and the Trannys do good to last 1 year.(A BIGGER truck is better!!!

quote:

"I can agree with that,but make him wait until he can handle an adequate cal."- My grandson was killing deer cleanly with what he was using--why make him wait?

Not all the situations work out well with inadequate Cartridges. Then that is hanging over their heads for the rest of their lives simply because they were not adequately armed.

quote:

Still don't know what you consider adequate--not .22 cal,not 6mm--a 30-06 is adequate but a 30 mag better. Those Carolina deer wear Kevlar?

Haven't seen any Kevlar on the ones we recovered. Not sure about the ones that got away due to woosie Cartridges.

You need to consider odd bullet performance too. I just did a hunt in Africa using a .270 with 130 Partitions for light game, and the performance was sporadic at best. When two different Springbok shot nearly a thousand miles apart still absorb three bullets in the kill zone, because the bullets zipped thru like solids, I had a problem. However, the problem wasn't totally repeatable. I'd get a splat down kill on a Blesbok, the next Springbok would be a shootathon! And then I'd get a perfect kill on another Springbok. I was sick, especially when on those two recoveries I could cover all three bullet holes with the palm of my hand (shots taken from 250-345 yards). I'm never using light bullets over there again, it's the .30-06 and larger from now on.

LLS

Hot Core--"That's the problem when trying to discuss the topic-limited experience can lead to misleading impressions." Yes I realized that. Just trying to help you out and fast forward you a few years and get you to speed. A project for sure but we'll get there. Someday you'll learn you don't need that .460 Weatherby Magnum on deer nor the .300 mag on squirrels. For example in your long shot of 70 yards and a .300 mag is better than 30-06---really the 30-06 is providing about 2800 foot pounds of energy and the deer will die laughing at you for trying to use such an imp of a cartridge.
All this tracking you have had to do. An easy solution is have your hunting friends spend more time at the range with a rifle they can comfortably handle and eliminate all those bad shots. That false notion that the super magnum forgives bad shots goes away.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman:
Hot Core--"That's the problem when trying to discuss the topic-limited experience can lead to misleading impressions." Yes I realized that. Just trying to help you out and fast forward you a few years and get you to speed. A project for sure but we'll get there. Someday you'll learn you don't need that .460 Weatherby Magnum on deer nor the .300 mag on squirrels.

You sound like Woods with moving into the present stuff. I do appreciate your efforts.

quote:

All this tracking you have had to do. An easy solution is have your hunting friends spend more time at the range with a rifle they can comfortably handle and eliminate all those bad shots. ...

Certainly agree that extra Range Time is a BIG help. When they have a good understanding of Terminal Ballistics, it is also a Huge help.
-----

Just got off the phone with a buddy who was on the road passing through some part of Colorado. He had gone on a couple of Hunts out that way(not sure of which state, maybe Colorado) and got a nice Antelope with a 257Roberts using the old style 100gr BarnesX Bullet at about 425yds. The guy who owned the land on which he was Hunting was having a problem with his rifle and wanted to go Kill an Elk Cow. So they talked about it and the Land Owner decided to try the 257Rob and the 100gr X. He got a shot at the Lead Cow in a herd of 30 at about 150yds. She ran about 10yds forward, turned around, ran back about 15-20yds and fell over. Since she had been the Lead Cow, the Herd was unsure of which direction to go but eventually departed.

Another weenie Cartridge for the task-at-hand did well. The X made a nice quarter size Exit and did a fine job inside. They estimated her at about 500# and three of them had a lot of difficulty getting her loaded.

When things go well, the woosie Cartridges will occasionally do fine. When they don't, there is absolutely no doubt at all that the BIG Cartridges have a significant advantage with getting the meat onto the ground - close to the spot where the shot was taken.

Will also agree that if a person can't handle the Recoil and Report of an Adequate Cartridge, that they can make a mess of the situation. They need to stick with Red Ryders and Lead Sleds.

Hot Core---I don't know your age. Do you know who Red Ryder was? I've found only about 10 years younger than I am usually don't.

Maybe! He was one of the "Good Guys" in the Western movies of my youth. Along with Hopalong, Gene, Roy, Tex Ritter, Wild Bill, Buffalo Bill, Yancee Derringer, The Range Rider, The Rough Riders, Randolph Scott, Crash Corrigan, etc. of the old B Westerns. Lots of land, water and stock problems back then as well as the occasional Bank, Stagecoach or Train which got robbed. Same as today.

EDIT IN: Do you know the name of Red Ryder's small Indian buddy?

Can't toss the Duke in with them, cause his movies really are Required Viewing.
-----

I don't remember any of them going out with In-Adequate Calibers and most carried about 50-90 shot revolvers.

Come to think of it, just yesterday Randolph Scott was shot in the back. Before dark the same day he was out riding wide-open and fighting. Must have been a woosie Caliber.

Little Beaver aka Robert Blake
He would say "You betchum, Red Ryder."

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman:
Hot Core Just trying to help you out and fast forward you a few years and get you to speed. A project for sure but we'll get there.

You sound like Woods with moving into the present stuff. I do appreciate your efforts.

Best give up now carpetman, an impossible task to modernize HC!

When it comes to fixes with HC it's all baling wire and duct tape.

Hey Joe, Thank you. I had remembered it WRONG, but now that you said it, I'm sure you are correct.

Was Tonto's horse "Scout"?

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
...When it comes to fixes with HC it's all baling wire and duct tape.

Isn't Duct Tape kinda modern???

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Was Tonto's horse "Scout"?

You betchum, Red Ryder...... as in "Get-um up, Scout..." Am horrified that you left Tom Mix off your list, though, as well as Lash Larue...and who was the fellow who used to "be" Zorro?


.............ayyyyee..Ceesco...don' be forgotting me tooooo........

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Was Tonto's horse "Scout"?

You betchum, Red Ryder...... as in "Get-um up, Scout..." Am horrified that you left Tom Mix off your list, though, as well as Lash Larue...and who was the fellow who used to "be" Zorro?

Geo. Gabby Hayes. Fuzzy knight, Bill Elliot, Bob Steel, Harry Carie Sr. Been a tiring day> roger

Yes, all those folks and more.

I'd guess the movie version of Annie Oakley could out shoot all of them. That was when she thought it was correct to "hip shoot" the revolver out of the Bad Guy's hand - without breaking his fingers or drawing any blood.

Anybody know who Pa-who Kaa-ta-waa(that is the best I can spell it and it is the way it sounds) was? Carried a shotgun under his arm and a knife down the middle of his back. He never messed with shooting revolvers out-of-their-hands.

/

quote:

That is the problem when trying to discuss the topic - limited experiences can lead to misleading impressions.

Had a lot of Tracking to do over the years because people were convinced the smaller calibers worked just fine. I'm not saying they will not "Kill" the Game, simply saying if you observe enough Kills made(or shots taken) with the Inadequate Cartridges, you will have;

1. A much higher percentage of totally lost Game.
2. Longer time duration Tracking jobs which can result in the loss of the meat even if the Deer is found.
3. It also strains friendships when 8-20 people have to stop Hunting trying to locate Game that has been shot at and not quickly recovered.

I must concur with Hot Core - the 243 Win is also mis-applied here in South Africa, especially when we see hunters shooting game with conventional factory loaded ammo (cheap ammo that is). Ammo loaded with frangible bullets that shatters on body shots. Lung shots behind the shoulder generally make clean kills when deep penetration is not required. What we need to see is that it is limiting and we are in a compromise situation.

With premium bullets the situation gets better and if a bullet can retain its petals through the vitals at 3000 fps then you have a fairly good position, but this is seldom the case, as at such velocity petals come off in the first 200 yards, as the impact velocity is still too high for the threshold strength of most bullets. That is why my contention is that we are better of with a bigger caliber at lower velocity where the bullet mushrooms to at least double its diameter.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by sierra2:
You need to consider odd bullet performance too. I just did a hunt in Africa using a .270 with 130 Partitions for light game, and the performance was sporadic at best. When two different Springbok shot nearly a thousand miles apart still absorb three bullets in the kill zone, because the bullets zipped thru like solids, I had a problem. However, the problem wasn't totally repeatable. I'd get a splat down kill on a Blesbok, the next Springbok would be a shootathon! And then I'd get a perfect kill on another Springbok. I was sick, especially when on those two recoveries I could cover all three bullet holes with the palm of my hand (shots taken from 250-345 yards). I'm never using light bullets over there again, it's the .30-06 and larger from now on.

LLS

I had a smiliar experience using a .270 with 130g partitions on a nice size Idaho mulie buck at around 180 yards. Two pencil shoot thru's followed up by a 25 yard 3rd shoot all within about a 8 inch circle on the ribs. I don't use the partitions any more unless I would be trying to upgrade the "capacity" of the .270 for much larger game.

No takers on PaHoo?

Saw a Hoot Gibson movie yesterday.

quote:

Being from Aussie land we don't get groundhogs...

Want some?

Woods--Yes,a most obvious difficult project and certainly questionable if the results would be worth it if successful. Much akin to chrome plating a road grader. He'd probably stencil Semper Fi on it even if you got it all chrome plated.

I'd much prefer good old Olive Drab, but SEMPER FI stencilled on it would provide just the perfect enhancement.

quote:

Being from Aussie land we don't get groundhogs...

Want some?[/QUOTE]
We need something. Thanks to the CSIRO, bless their hearts, our rabbit population doesn't need us anymore to contain it.