To attempt to address questions brought forth by Rex Rat in another thread on this page..

His questions:

" Seafire- You will press on no matter what is said here and I know this. Yet, you speak of a painstaking development and it seems that you will continue this as well. Will you use the advice of some of the members here and possibly hone this concept into a razor’s edge where all the reasonable arguments have at leas been explored. If you will also bring us data and begin with the test construction we will be under way! Thank you sir......."

Answers:

Rex, I will continue my work on this as I have always done...I always take considerations of fellow forum members whom I respect, even when I don't agree with their analysis...
Example: folks can interpret this as trying to prove Mont Doug wrong on his assumptions using this powder in sub 22 caliber cases... I will accumulate some barrels for a Savage in several of those calibers and test it, and actually attempt the goal of proving him right! Call it respect for his opinion...
So far I have only done some work with the 204 Ruger... however, I am not seeing the horror stories incinuated that should be happening..

I am working on getting a 17 Fireball or a 17 Mach 4 to test this concept out with...

I have noticed patterns of Blue Dot in certain cases, but I have also looked at other powders in other cases the same way, and have actually noticed patterns in those case, with certain other powders..of course folks always want details and that alone can work into hours upon hours worth of work, time and energy.... for strictly trying to prove a point for others, that can be hostile against it from the start..
so where is the incentive to bother?

I'll be happy to do it for certain people, in private.. I am getting tired for the occasional flame, after all the work I put into something and decide to share with fellow forum members...

ya know, I have had tons of emails requesting data, including many from other sites besides this one...

I have gotten tons of emails from folks all over the world.. Australia, New Zealand, Africa, Europe and South America, besides North America.. telling me how happy they were finding out about this and thanking me for sharing my work...

I have NOT gotten ONE email or PM complaining to me about "seafire you butthead, your load data, screwed up my firearm..." vs the all the positive ones...

What others who are flaming me on this right now are failing to acknowledge.. is on all loads that I list as recommended max, I have gone beyond those limits... and found both no real increase in velocity, yet started seeing pressure signs and shortened case life start to appear...

folks seem to think it is too hard to believe that a load of Blue Dot can push a 40 grain bullet safely at 3375 fps... and one can get 10 reloads out of a case still... I do it all the time...so why wouldn't I share that with other forum members...

if they really want to freak, then let them look at the fact that with 15 grain of Blue Dot and a 30 grain Berger, the MV rises to about 3800 fps!!!!

I just report what I see, with no forgone conclusions before I started working with the powder...I started in the middle and worked down, and worked up... using James Calhoon's work as a reference..

first the 223, then the 22.250, then the 243..
and then used Published 44 Rem Mag Blue Dot data in a 444 marlin and got the same patterns and results....

3 Cheers for seafire.

As for Blue Dot in small cases, they don't get much smaller than the Calhoon Hornet or the 19 Badger which is built on the 30 Carbine case.

I'm sure Mr. Jim would not put his customers in jeoaprdy by suggesting Blue Dot in 19 Calibers. In 10 years of Blue Dot loads there has never been a rifle returned to him because of powder Malfunction.

I'm with seafire 100%.

Best wishes, Bill

I do not have long today and I was not with you for some time due to a concern on the wild cat forum that I felt needed my attention. Seafire I now have a better idea what you meant about posting more than being able to develop!

I think we can drop the other thread and talk here instead.

Good to see you have decided to test some of the smaller cals your self. I have been trying to figure a good way to get to a pressure curve but I think I am demanding to much precision of my self.

Would you be able to post your work up for each of the cartridges that you have done and give a water capacity for each?

This will take some time but if you post new ones as you get them I will fit them in the graph and in some time you may be able to use this in your recommendation for starting loads!

I haven't been following the posts that this thread is apparently referring to, but it appears to me that there has been some discussion/contraversy about upper-limit loads with Blue Dot. Seafire has done a great deal of testing with this powder and has pushed to and beyond its limits in an attempt to establish just what those limits are. Thanks, Seafire, that means that I don't have to go there!

I think that a discussion of utilizing Blue Dot for its maximum potential velocity misses the point. The beauty of Blue Dot is that it will provide you with very accurate and consistent reduced loads. There are twenty other powders I can use to reach optimum velocity loads. When I want optimum velocity loads, it is one of those powders I reach for. But among the powders that will provide me a dependable reduced load (quieter, cooler, and cheaper than a full-house round), Blue Dot is at the top of the very small heap. The Blue Dot phenomenon may be that despite its burning rate, it will come amazingly close to reaching the same velocities as much slower powders if you push it that far. As for me, when using Blue Dot, I'll settle for modest velocities that are easy on the ears, the barrel, the cases, and the pocketbook.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
As for me, when using Blue Dot, I'll settle for modest velocities that are easy on the ears, the barrel, the cases, and the pocketbook.

Double ditto! I've just bought a new to me Ruger MkII International with 18.5" barrel for "kids use". Based on my experience with Blue Dot in a 7.62x54R carbine ... I'll be using it for mild loads on both ears and shoulders with a 125-150gr projectile. I'll also try the Alliant 2400 loads listed in their manual plus the reduced H4895 loads that are recommended to see what difference it makes.

I was pretty smug about using Blue Dot in centrefires until an old-timer (in his late 60's) had a chuckle at my expense and told me the "old guard" used Green Dot and either pulled 7.62x39, bumped up 308cal pills or cast projectiles for rapid fire practice from their 303British SMLE's way back in the 1970s. Soft on the ears, soft on the barrels and perfectly adequate for 100yard targets. He still uses Green Dot for one old timer that "can barely see the targets" but still likes to shoot when he has the opportunity.
Cheers...
Con

Seafire had made clear in a long ago previous post that his recommended maximums are BELOW what he himself has personally tested. I have worked up loads for the .243 as per his recommendations and my son has now fired a few hundred of these very accurate rounds much to our mutual delight. The barrel stays relatively cool and so does his shoulder.

Thanks again Seafire for your work and expertise. Wayne

The deer I've seen hit with a 7mm/08 and .308 with Bluedot loads were pretty dead.

The kids that shot those loads have moved up to bigger/faster, but they learned good shooting form and habits with quiet, mild recoil bluedot loads.

Kudos to Seafire.

About a year agomy wife decided she wanted to shoot her .308 in a local bench rest match. The rifle is nothing special. [1 1/4" groups] So I set out to find her a load that would tighten it up some. That's when I found Seafire's posts about blue dot. 18.6 grains of bluedot and a 110 grain Sierra shot into 5/8th". A friend gave me a Lee factory crimp die in 308. I loaded 20 rounds and crimped ten and shot three 3 shot groups from each. Crimped shells averaged 3/8ths. Now she stands a good chance in the production class.

On the other hand, now the safe full of milsurps I have are back in action. A motorcycle accident wrecked my shoulder a few years back and I'm very recoil intolerant. Bluedot gives me a chance to enjoy these fine rifles once again.

Thanks Seafire for your good work.

Thanks Goldy..

Your post exemplifies why I take the time to do this work... helping others out like you and your wife.. ( folks I don't even know, 2500 miles away)... but helping those type of folks keep actively shooting with fine results...

Well sir, I thank you.. Folks with stories like you and your wife's make it all the time, energy and expense expended worth while...

warmest regards...
seafire

Ok. I will assume you will not post on this topic again, seafire. I encourage you not to post data that is based on cartridge capacity alone.

why not Rex?

if you look at a lot of different powders, along with the bullets sectional density you are loading, you will see a correlation to case capacity for each cartridge if you are using the same style case.. like a 308 and 243....
at least with the faster powders you do...