Playing around for some alternatives to be available...

I was looking at where folks had spoke of an accurate load for a 243 with the idea that the deer taken would be at 100 yds or so...

As I have always said, you don't need a 500 yd load, with 3500 ft/lbs of ME... to take a 75 lb black tail at 75 yds...

Anyway, I figured an MV goal would be 2000 fps with a 100 grain Bullet or so..

So what I got was a charge of 14 grains of Unique under a 100 grain Rem Corelokt, and on top of a CCI/LR primer...

Mv was right at 2000 fps ( avg of 2008 fps)..

Accuracy with a 4 power scope at 100 yds, was within the bullseye which was the size of a half dollar ( if those are still around any more)....

The big surprise is recoil...or lack thereof...

after shooting 10 rounds of that, and then 10 rounds of 22 grains of Blue Dot, the Blue Dot load was almost like a Magnum in comparison..

Even Seafire Jr. said it felt like shooting the 22 Long Rifle...

If a regular 243 is supposed to generate about 8 lbs of recoil.. this Unique load has to be developing about 2 lbs...it is half of what the 22 grains of Blue Dot load equals...

Anyway, if anyone has an interest in these parameters, I highly recommend this load...

Works great in the two Ruger 77 Mk 2s that I have tried it in....

In a Varmint weight rig, the recoil lack thereof is almost ridiculous...a big spitball gun...

cheers
seafire

seafire, Little different twist..........try the 70 grain Nosler BT ahead of 41.0 grains of Varget in the .243. Not maximum but accurate in a bunch of .243's and the reduced recoil of the lighter bullet really helps. Now that darn BLUE DOT!!!! .............I will get some range time in the next few months and I will do the .204 workup for you!! And I'm going to try it in the .223 XP-100!!! GHD

Charlie,

start at about 8 or 9 grains and work up and down from that point...that is the safest way to do it in that case size...

cheers
seafire

seafire,

I'm courious where you find these loads or how you figure them out? I made a bunch of reduced loads for my grandson in a 243 but used rifle powders. Have a number of old Herter 24 cal bullets I'm thinking of trying some more light loads with.

I looked in my Lyman manual and they don't even list Unique r Blue Dot for cast bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
Anyway, I figured an MV goal would be 2000 fps with a 100 grain Bullet or so..

So what I got was a charge of 14 grains of Unique under a 100 grain Rem Corelokt, and on top of a CCI/LR primer...

Mv was right at 2000 fps ( avg of 2008 fps)..

Accuracy with a 4 power scope at 100 yds, was within the bullseye which was the size of a half dollar (if those are still around any more)...

4 power scopes or silver dollars?

At 2000 fps do you suppose terminal performance would be better with a roundnose soft such as made by Hornady? Or might a fella make a jig to flatnose or hollownose the Corelokt spitzer?

quote:

Originally posted by Don Fischer:
seafire,

I'm courious where you find these loads or how you figure them out? I made a bunch of reduced loads for my grandson in a 243 but used rifle powders. Have a number of old Herter 24 cal bullets I'm thinking of trying some more light loads with.

I looked in my Lyman manual and they don't even list Unique r Blue Dot for cast bullets.

Well Don,

Working with these faster powders, I have learned patterns that are not necessarily the same patterns for rifle powders..

For instance, Unique doesn't perform all that different in a 250 Savage case, than it would for a 243 case..

So Lyman's Cast Bullet manual lists a charge of like 10 grains or so for a 105 grain Cast bullet...it lists 13 grains for a 105 cast bullet in a 257 Roberts....

Also the target goal was to have an MV of 2000 fps.. equal to the 30/30 or so..

So I started out with a load of 12.5 grains with a 100 grain bullet, then a 13 grain load, then a 13.5 and then 14 gave me my desired 2000 fps load I was looking for..

Recoil was lower than I expected, with indicated from experience that pressure was still pretty low...

A trip to the range to test the accuracy at 50 and 100 yds proven better than my expectations..

So that is how that one happened...

As far as Blue Dot and why I prefer it.. consistency... Blue Dot is the most flexible of all of these faster powders.. and more accurate across the board... than say 2400, 4198 etc...

A lot of careful work, shows patterns in certain case sizes, that held true regardless of bullet weight, and regardless of bore size..

for instance, max load in a 243 sized case seems to be at 22 to 23 grains.. most of my personal loads in that case are at 22.5 grain regardless of bullet weight...

same patterns held true for the 260, the 7/08, the 308 and the 358...

The 57 mm case, seemed to have a max of 24 grains of Blue Dot, regardless of bullet weight..

that held true in the 257 Roberts, the 7 x 57, the 8 x 57, the 6mm Rem..

With the very heaviest of bullets, it was learned to work up a little more carefully to max loads.. which I have saw that it seemed to have a difference in the bullet 's contact area within the bullet case.... example: say a 220 grain bullet in a 8 mm Mausder...

Blue Dot also showed me that it prefers shorter fat cases over long and thin.. such as a WSM vs an 06 sized case.. for the potential of what a max load is...

however one has to direct people away from trying to redline a load with Blue Dot... the entire mission is to provide lower recoil and lower velocity.. the shorter range being a given, but still being within the average distances that gave are taken in...with enough velocity to let available bullets still be able to perform the mission at hand...

06 sized cases seem to take a max load of about 26 grains of Blue Dot...

however, Blue Dot can still give very good performance even in Magnum cases.. allowing off season shooting and practice without wearing out the barrel....

eg, like instead of shooting at a 300 yd target with a 300 Win Mag factory load.. take a load of Blue Dot, and set up a target that is 1/3 of the size you usually use, and post it at 100 yds..

visually it accomplishes the same thing..

So that is it in a quick nut shell...hope some of it made some sense...

best regards..
seafire

quote:

At 2000 fps do you suppose terminal performance would be better with a roundnose soft such as made by Hornady? Or might a fella make a jig to flatnose or hollownose the Corelokt spitzer?

Actually my personal preference would be a Nosler 95 grain Ballistic Tip first, followed by a 100 grain RN, or the hoarded batch of Sierra 100 grain SMPs that I have...

The 100 grain Corelokt will work fine.. but the other bullets do work better....

like any load, folks need to make sure the bullet fits both the load behind it and the game they are going after...

however, many folks have lost contact with the capabilities of terminal performance that many bullets at slower speeds still have within them...

Seafire,

Are you using any fillers or is their no need?

Keith

quote:

Originally posted by keithv35:
Seafire,

Are you using any fillers or is their no need?

Keith

No NEED.. Blue Dot nor Unique are position sensitive in the case for reliable ignition.. using either Rifle primers or pistol primers...

I usually avoid magnum primers.. even in Magnums with regular rifle loads...

Having followed the youth and reduced load philosophy for some time now, there is a question comes to mind.

Is there something lost by a 14 year old by not learning to stand up to the recoil of a .244 or .257 cal. rifle putting a bullet out the barrel at 2900 fps.? Is it possible taking this youth load idea to the extremes you have is sending the wrong message?

The legal age to hunt deer in Colorado was, and still may be 14 years old. The energy level of the bullet at 100 yds. was 1000ft.lbs.

I once took two small framed 14 year olds on there first dear hunt in the Rockies. There father had bought them Win. Mod, 94, 30-30. Both were successful and stood up to the recoil.

A 14 year old female small built cousin of mine took her first deer with a 25-06 and factory ammo. Also I've taught a lot of female types and young boys to the age of 9 how to shoot trap with a 12 gage and that's a lot of pounding.

Personally I think the reduced load (Blue Dot or whatever) thing is great for Some varmints and paper shooting but using a load that is only half as powerfull as a 30-30 on even whimpy deer is allowing the pendulum to swing to far in the wrong direction.

I'm posting this not to convince you of anything for I know that ain't going to happen. I do, however, want to express an oposing view. No foul intended. roger

The common perception that Unique is position insensitive was challenged in a magazine article I read and the cartridge was either a 357 or a 44 magnum. velocities varied as much as 150 fps in the relativly small short cases. They were trying to duplicate 38 special and 44 special loads respectivly.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Is there something lost by a 14 year old by not learning to stand up to the recoil of a .244 or .257 cal. rifle putting a bullet out the barrel at 2900 fps.? Is it possible taking this youth load idea to the extremes you have is sending the wrong message?

Personally I think the reduced load (Blue Dot or whatever) thing is great for some varmints and paper shooting but using a load that is only half as powerfull as a 30-30 on even whimpy deer is allowing the pendulum to swing to far in the wrong direction.

It's a fair question to ask. I suppose the message I'm trying to send my son is that shooting need not hurt at all, especially when all we're harvesting is farm country whitetails. He's never fired a shot without hearing protection - even in the field. He shoots a 20 ga 870 Youth Model better and better every trip to the range, in large part because I had the stock fitted with a one inch Decelerator pad. He's taken two deer each with a .243 100 NPT @ 2750 fps (essentially 250 Savage ballistics) and the Federal 30'06 Low Recoil 170s @ 2000 fps. This year he'll use a 125 gr spitzer @ 2700 fps (exceeding by 200 fps the actual performance of the Remington Managed Recoil load, and at a price we can afford) in his new Kimber 84M. We practice with lighter loads than that and he's been spending a lot of trigger time with his nearly identical Kimber Hunter 22. He's having loads of fun and no pain (except for learning to shoot with a proper military sling).

Reduced loads allow kids to be able to build up to being able to withstand recoil..

My son was VERY recoil shy at first... in fact much more sensitive than the other kid he will be hunting with for both of their first times..

But with more range time, my son has learned to handle the recoil and is pretty darn accurate out to 200 yds now.....and of course I am speaking of stouter loads than he started out with...

On the flip side, our friends son gets recoil flinch after spending a little range time, such as 10 shots.. his next 10 are all over the place....

As a handloader I am able to assemble ammo that will be adequate for the job at hand.. yet still be able to be manageable by the shooter...

All people respond differently to recoil, even kids...

My cousin's son in West Virginia got his first whitetail at 5 yrs old, shooting dad's 30/06, with the forearm rest on the fence's cross bar...

at 7 yrs old, Trevor was shooting dad's 300 Weatherby... the more it recoils the better he loves it..

One size doesn't fit all....

But locally I am also amazed at how much some of the older dads like the reduced loads in their 30/06s and 7 Rem Mags...

at the local Bi Mart, the Managed Recoil loads of the 06 and 7 Mag are by far the best sellers...

I'd rather be hunting in an area, with someone who can handle the recoil of their rifle and have it being a very light load.. instead of hunting around someone who has a standard factory load, even in a 243, and is afraid of the recoil of it... and when he shoots, lord knows where the bullet went sailing off too.....

And ya know, once upon a time 2000 fps was considered more than enough for deer or elk...

and a lot of guys went hunting with 25/20s and 25/35s.... and knew where to place the bullet... and yet they had 30/06s and 45/70s etc available to them....

I have read old articles by Jack O'Connor that stated the 257 Roberts was a more than adequate Elk and Grizzley Round....

Many a moose were downed in Alaska and Canada, by hunters carrying the good old 250 Savage...

There's a place for these loads.. and if the kid never grows up to handle anything bigger than that.. do we want a weanie out hunting or do we want another anti hunter added to the anti's ranks???