Is this a good thing?

http://www.voere.com/model_vec91.htm#Seitenbeginn

As far as I know this is the only commercial 'caseless' type gun that ever was made on a regular basis. Without a spring-lock time, the electronic ignition is much faster and the electronic trigger is also very clean (from what I have read in the past, not actually lucky enough to play with one).
If I remember the .22 cal version matches the .223 for velocity, and the 6mm was just above, probably something closer to the .250 savage.
I know it was really something that was a military project for caseless ammo shooting plastic rifles (lighter weight and less sensitive ammo) and have seen prototypes for the semi-autos using the caseless .22 cal.
Really neat in my opinion, but just never caught on

quote:

As far as I know this is the only commercial 'caseless' type gun that ever was made on a regular basis

I believe Daisy also made caseless ammo for a while.

The first time I remember seeing anything about caseless ammo was in the early eighties. H & K had a carbine they were marketing. It looked like a block, all squared off. The ad was in an old "Guns" magazine, I believe.

Selling the customer will tell the story. But as of know I'm not sold on it.

There have been many attempts at caseless ammo, dating back to the early Sharps rifles with their consumable nitrated paper cartridges. On the US market, the Daisy and the Gyro-Jet went into production and had modest sales.

The sticking point has always been the gas seal. It's difficult to hold tolerances close enough contain gases under great pressure without a gasket, and when you do, the gun becomes too finicky for field use.

I suspect that if there is ever practical caseless ammo, it will involve a consumable base that seals the breach a tiny fraction of a second before burning itself.

If I recall, the Voere system used electronic ignition. The Daisy system (which fired a bullet approximately equivalent to a .22LR) used compressed air to heat and ignite the charge.

Then there was the Gyrojet, which was not actually caseless, but it was instead a mini-rocket in which the case and bullet were a single unit and exited the bore together.

The problem with casesless ammunition has always been sealing the breach, which is acutally the more important function of the brass than just holding the primer, powder, and bullet in place. If the sealing problem can be overcome, then caseless ammunition make some sense.

Having never be around large armament, I'm unfamiliar with how caseless "big guns" such as those found on a battleship have their breaches sealed. Can anyone more worldly help with that?

The HK cartridge fired a 4.92mm bullet weighing 51 grains at 3000 fps.

The Steyr cartridge fired a steel flechette at 4900 fps

Stonecreek,

Most artillery pieces that are caseless have a brass ring around the outside of the shell (or bullet) that is forced into the rifling with a ram or hydraulic press. This seats the round and ensures its square with the bore as well as creating a gas seal.

quote:

Originally posted by elkhunter:
Stonecreek,

Most artillery pieces that are caseless have a brass ring around the outside of the shell (or bullet) that is forced into the rifling with a ram or hydraulic press. This seats the round and ensures its square with the bore as well as creating a gas seal.

Okay, I can understand how the bore is sealed by the projectile, but how is the breach (to the rear of the propellant charge) sealed?

With the breech block, you'll notice they have threads on artillery pieces above 155mm which, like a 105, use a shell and casing Also the 120m Rheinmetal-Borsig cannon on the Leopard and M1A1+ tanks all use "caseless" 120mm ammo, there is a brass head the rest of the case is propellant. The disc is all that falls from the breech the rest is burned excepting the plastic sabot and projectile.

Large caliber bag guns use an interrupted screw breech block mechanism that contains an elastic gas check to seal the rear of the chamber and prevent the escape of gas. With seperate loading ammunition the projectile is not jammed into the rifleing as was stated above. Otherwise you would have a nice mess on your hands in the event of a mis-fire where the projectile had to be withdrawn from the chamber. Ensuring that the projectile is aligned with the bore is accomplished by a bourrelet on the front and the rotating band on the rear.

Ray (Ex-GM, USN)

quote:

Originally posted by elkhunter:
Stonecreek,

Most artillery pieces that are caseless have a brass ring around the outside of the shell (or bullet) that is forced into the rifling with a ram or hydraulic press. This seats the round and ensures its square with the bore as well as creating a gas seal.

Almost! That "brass ring" around the shell is the rotating band, which does engrave in the rifling, and imparts spin to the projectile.

However, as the powder charge is BEHIND the base of the projectile, it cannot and does not create a gas seal at the breech. The interrupted-screw breechblock does that, having a large, expandable chamber-fitting face to the block which expands under gas pressure to seal the breech. All U.S. tube artillery of 155mm and larger work this way ("separate loading"), having the projo inserted first and rammed up into the front end of the chamber, and the propellant loaded next in bags behind the shell. After the block is closed, the gunner inserts a primer in the primer hole in the breechblock. The howitzer primers I've seen looked for all the world like a blank .45/70 cartridge.....

Okay, I think I understand the "caseless" shells. They have a head attached to the propellant which acts as the breech seal.

As I understand the big "bag" guns, they have some kind of reusable, expandable breech seal built into the interrupted thread breech. What kind of material is it made of, and is there normally some degree of "leakage" of chamber gases through the rear of the breech?

I'm also curious as to what approximate PSI the big guns run. As I understand it (and this may be inaccurate) part of controlling where your shell hits is controlled by how many bags of propellent you toss into the breech. Is this correct?

Stonecreek,

Personally, I'm not at all familiar with the caseless ammunition that has a partial head attached to the propellant since they were not in use during my days in the Navy. I'm not sure such a thing exists for large caliber artillery ammunition. Who was it that brought that up??

The breech seal for the big bag guns consists of a large semi-round steel "mushroom" on the front of the breechblock. Under this is a gas check usually made of a "plastic" type material. When the propellant is ignited the gas pressure forces the mushroom to the rear compressing the gas check causing it to expand and seal the breech. The higher the pressure the tighter the seal. The gas checks are a part of the breechblock and are only replaced when necessary. To give you an idea of size, the mushroom on a 16" Naval gun weighs over 200 pounds.

Most people do not realize that the ballistics of the big guns are not much different than for your hunting rifle, the biggest difference being the maximum range. A 2700 pound 16" projectile has an average velocity of 2500 to 2700 fps at a pressure of between 35 and 40,000 psi. Maximum range is near 40,000 yards and yes the velocity can be varied by lowering the propellant charge weight. But you normally control where the projectile hits by changing the angle of elevation, again, just like your 30-06 when taking that 700 yard shot at an elk.

Cheechako,

Thanks for the explanation. I knew that there had to be something to obturate to seal the breech, but never having been anywhere close to such a gun I just didn't know quite how it would function.

Back to the topic, the original ammo for the Voere rifle came in different formulations for different velocities starting at 22 Hornet up to 222 Rem Mag. I don't recall a loading in the 22-250 class but maybe so.

All the advantage of the electronic ignition is present in the Rem EtronX without the ammo availabilty problems and they still don't sell worth a crap.

All I know for sure about the Voere is it must be a bitch to handload for it.