That is a result that should convince the sceptics of the value of annealing. Like you I do not drop into water but have a simple set of sockets on a headless bolt rather than the chanel locks you use. I drop one into the socket and hold into the flame then tip out into a steel bowl to cool. I do them every reload though, but have nowhere the load count you have through mine yet. This is my set-up. The socket-bolt-cartridge length is the same so the rest works for them all the same except for the time in the flame.





Von Gruff.

Thanks for posting photo's of your annealing rig. I have always been a picture kinda guy. ie. I didn't read the articles in Playboy when I was young.
Do you anneal your 7X57 cases when you shoot cast?
BTW I saw your field report on your soft nose cast hunt over at castboolit.com. Looks like they worked perfectly and you do live in a beautiful country. Those steep open grassy hills remind me of some of the coastal hills of Calif. that I hunted in my younger days. Some mighty big rattlesnakes in those hills also, something I bet you don't have to watch out for.

quote:

Von Gruff.

Von Gruff,

actually it was one of you Kiwis that was a brand new reloader that gave me the idea of annealing every 4th time, instead of every like 7th or 8th.

I use a large 7 gallon propane tank, with a 4 foot tree on it . I threw about $10 worth of propane in it a couple of years ago.

It sits at shoulder height, so it is pretty user friendly.
your set up is even hightech compared to what I use.

but either way, it shows others that it yields very good rewards, for a low cost, not labor intensive at all.

Granted after 120 reloads on my 223 cases, they don't look overly pretty, but they sure function just 'peachy keen'....

Low Wall I do aneal for the cast loads. It has become a part of the handloading process for me in that I first put them in the polisher as that more clearly shows the first colour change. You are right about the rattlers, our only snakes are the political kind and they are worse than rattlers as they strike without warning.

Seafire2
120 times for a case is outstanding sucess. My count is way down as yet and may take years to get there. What is the chambering like for your 223. Is it factory or a bit more snug? When I built the 7x57 I had the chamber cut with a honed min spec reamer and found thick necked brass that allowed me to turn for a .002 clearance, which together with the tapered chamber neck and the Wilson neck sizing die only sizing a part of the neck gives me very good fit and minimal sizing. My 20 cal also has a fitted neck so brass should be an almost barrel life prospect going by your results. 404 has custom dies for the same reason, which is a bonus as the brass is so expensive.

Would be most interested in follow up on times fires for your 223 brass as the number grows.

Von Gruff.

Von Gruff,

This test is nothing fancy.

Range Brass picked up.. so it was free.

Dedicated rifle for this test was a new Remington ADL in 223, all straight factory. Nothing custom.

I wanted to keep this as close to the "real world scenario' as humanly possible.

The barrel was almost brand new when this test started. It currently has about 1600 or so rounds down the barrel, with about 1200 of them being for this test.

I don't know if you have ever seen Lapua's web site but they mention testing loads in brass for 300 firings!

From what I have seen of the little Lapua brass I have played with, it is good stuff. Between the annealing and Lee the neck sizing die, Redding Body Die, and a little prudence on how hot you are loading your brass... I don't think getting a 100 reloads out of a batch of brass, is not overly hard.

as you point out, for regular brass used for big game hunting, brass could life someone a lifetime.

playing with calibers like the lowly 30/30, and keeping loads to the SAAMI pressure levels used for such calibers as the 6.5 x 55 or the 7 x 57 Mauser ( around 45,000 CUP).. it virtually can last Lord knows how long.

My motivation for this was partly due to rising pricing of componenets, but it is being motivated to stretch it further out, facing the potential of availability may become a spendy commodity if the ONe World People get in charge, because lets face it.. private firearm ownership is on the top of their list to end, world wide.

I have what I hope to be a guick question, or two. Do you think a BernzOmatic PencilFlame torch with the 1/2" flame would work for annealing? It would be single purpose since I don't need a torch for anything else. I have an old torch.....not working...not hot enough.

Also, for Von Gruff..how fast do you spin them in the drill? Would an electronic screwdriver with a slower twist rate work as well, or better?

Thanks for the replies as I need to do this for some of my fireformed wildcats.

Larry, I dont personally know the torch you mention but a pencil flame may be a bit short and narrow. A bigger flame aimed at the shoulder-neck junction will heat both ways quickly at the same time and reduce the time in the flame and any tendancy for either hot(red hot) spots or heat travel to the case head,which you dont want.
I turn my drill as slow as it will go so I can see the brass clearly to catch the colour change. Run too fast it is a blur and you may over heat.

Von Gruff.

Larry,

the torch head I picked up was like $12.00 at the hardware store, so it is not high priced.

Even though Von Gruff watches the color change on his brass, I do not. I just count to 10 for a 223 case and 12 for a bigger case is all. Seems to work out just fine.

Your suggestion of an electric screw driver I think is an excellent idea.

once again, I am not even that high tech.. I use those channel locks and I am not even rotating the case in the flame, the flame goes up and over the top of the brass and anneals that side also.

yeah, it is a little uneven looking, but the key point is the flame is hitting the areas I need to be hitting.

Between your suggestion of an electric screw driver and Von Gruff's about making a holder out of a socket, I think your gent's suggestion should really round out my needs perfectly.

Rocket science this is not.

Thanks guys! This is my first attempt so I really appreciate it.

quote:

and just to piss off the "greenies" and tree huggers, via this test, I have literally cut down 3 trees in the local woods near my house that have served as back stops for 1200 rounds of ammo fired into their trunks.

Yeah, but they'll be pleased that you are stretching out the life of the brass and not tossing it away! Damn, what a conflict in a treehugger's head!

quote:

what a conflict in a treehugger's head!

Hows that RC?

inside a treehugger's head...

there isn't really anything overly important up there....

that is what makes them treehuggers, PETA people and liberals.. and made them vote for Obama...

Back to the topic !.

For those of you who perhaps want volume semiautomatic annealing made easy ;

http://accurateshooter.wordpre...-case-neck-annealer/

This is similar to the one I built , though mine has more stations it works on the same principle .

quote:

Originally posted by Doc224/375:
Back to the topic !.

For those of you who perhaps want volume semiautomatic annealing made easy ;

http://accurateshooter.wordpre...-case-neck-annealer/

This is similar to the one I built , though mine has more stations it works on the same principle .

Kind of neat! If the urge really presented itself to get serious about large scale anealing it would seem that something similar to an induction solder machine would be the ticket. I'll bet Clark could handle the design and constrution of it in about a week***Maybe less. roger

here is an awesome article about the science and annealing brass: the-science-of-cartridge-brass-annealing

many types annealing machines now also, like the one above and this type, annealing machine

Why don't you provide a couple free to members for review?

EXCELLENT ARTICLE and thanks Jeffabuck...gives perfect directions, explanations, avoids BS, covers all aspects and I especially like the "To quench or not to quench"...hardest idea to get across due to the overabundance of online mis-information and dis-information between the characteristics of brass vs other metals.

I've used a lead pot and quenching to keep things cool...lead gobs sticking to the brass was a bit of a problem and the heat didn't help especially in 120+ summer desert temps...propane torch with a Lee case spinner and brass/alum/steel sleeves as heat sinks and quenching to keep things cool but only in small batches...should have posted my setup.

Thanks again.

Luck

Some experts recommend annealing after every shot, and they may be correct?? I have found annealing every fourth firing is substantial..I use a simple electric screw driver with an attachment made from a shell holder, I use Templac to eliminated guess and by gosh, guessing is a dangerous practice...I think some folks tend to over complicate the process.

For cases like the 30-06, 308, even the 9.3x62, I shoot them about 14 times and buy another hundred or two..Privi has many calibers of brass at half the cost of anybodys elses brass and its damn good stuff..I paid 52. per 100 on the last batch of 9.3x62 I bought about a month ago.

I anneal my 6x45, now 250-3000s, 35 Whelen, 25-35, the hard stuff to find.

During WW2, when we were at war with Germany and Japan, nothing at all was available except stolen black market military ammo in 06, 45 ball, and 30 carbine GI stuff. We learned to anneal out of necessity. Properly done a case will last almost indefinatly, but its time consuming and a slow process the way I do it.

When I bought my 6.5 Grendel and started paying a little over a dollar a piece for Lapua brass I decided it was time to start annealing the brass. Since it's a semi auto and needs to be full length resized every time I was having short brass life.
I bought the Hornady kitfrom Midway and a benz o matic torch from home depot. I spin them in a black and decker cordless screwdriver and then dump them into a bucket of water. Has worked great and has extended the life of the expensive and hard to find Grendel brass.

There was a youtube link on another forum where a guy built a homemade annealing machine. Looks pretty clever. I have thought about attempting to do the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCqGIBvVAkA

There are several variations of this machine on youtube if you look at them.

Let me first say I have never annealed a case, yet. I am, however, now looking into doing so, especially in the hard-to-find-brass-for calibers.

I think Ray brought up the most valid point. He said he uses Tempilac, the brush on temperature indicator. My understanding is annealing is a scientific process and for years I have heard to just "heat to a dull red" then stop.

I have always wondered how one defines "dull red", or to put it another way, will my definition of "dull red" be the same as yours? John Haviland wrote a good article for HANDLOADER magazine some years ago. He describes the process very well and in a scientific, ie: repeatable, manner. His article seems to negate the "by guess and by golly" methods I have read about for so many years.

quote:

Originally posted by steyrsteve:
Let me first say I have never annealed a case, yet. I am, however, now looking into doing so, especially in the hard-to-find-brass-for calibers.

I think Ray brought up the most valid point. He said he uses Tempilac, the brush on temperature indicator. My understanding is annealing is a scientific process and for years I have heard to just "heat to a dull red" then stop.

I have always wondered how one defines "dull red", or to put it another way, will my definition of "dull red" be the same as yours? John Haviland wrote a good article for HANDLOADER magazine some years ago. He describes the process very well and in a scientific, ie: repeatable, manner. His article seems to negate the "by guess and by golly" methods I have read about for so many years.

Annealing of brass is a scientific process and I guess if you were doing it for some parts of the space shuttle you would do it strictly to the scientific process. For cartridge cases it does not have to be that scientific, rocket science is not needed and it is a process not to be 'scared' of.

I have contributed to previous articles on annealing and we all have our own little methods suiting the equipment we have on hand.

To me there are two simple factors involved to maximise the annealing process, after all we are doing this usually to preserve expensive hard to obtain cases or maybe trying to improve accuracy in some loadings by having more even neck tension on the bullets.

Number 1 we should try and apply the heat evenly, hence by using a controllable tool to turn the cases in the heating flame, most simply a slow speed electric drill/screwdriver, we can easily achieve this step.

Number 2 we need to heat the brass just enough to anneal and it does not have to be absolutely perfect provided it is not bright red to the point of melting the brass. Scientifically it is the point of colour change on the brass but dull red or just as a red colour starts to show is fine.

It is all quite simple. If you want to be scientific and use a heat indicating liquid or crayon by all means but you won't get any better annealed brass than most of us doing it with our 'unscientific' methods.

I have certainly proved this with my old Kynoch 404 Jeffery ammo where from a packet of five I'll invariably get one case with a split neck or shoulder on firing the ammo. The remaining good cases are annealed with my unscientific way before reloading and I have not lost one yet despite multiple loadings with cast bullets which require a case mouth flare and some neck expansion is always visible when seating the slightly over-sized cast bullets. If ever a neck or shoulder should split on these old cases from the 60's it is going to happen now but it never eventuates with regular annealing.

of course the jazzy case holders I have made up to fit in my electric drill, knurling and all, make my process super scientific

I've been annealing for some time now and it's even more valuable now with the shortage of brass. I read a few articles before attempting it and one suggested simply turning the cases in your hand until they get too hot to hold. That method seems to work fine.

Hey Seafire! Where have you been? I always enjoy reading your posts but you disappeared for a while.

I use an electric screwdriver and a 12mm socket for my 308 head sized cases. 6-8 seconds in the flame and drop into water. Works fine.

Guys, don't get too worked up. jeffabuck has two posts and simply brought them back after 5 years to sell his machine.

Not saying it is not a good machine, just why he brought it up.

I read long ago that the best method for annealing was to hold the neck in molten lead. If I still cast bullets, this is absolutely the way I would go.

I never understood why people make annealing so difficult or so complex or why folks waste $$$ on needless equipment.

Simply hold the case by the web and slowly rotate in a blue flame until cherry red, drop in bucket of water and repeat with next case.

I agree annealing does not need to be difficult or complex but please stop repeating this cherry red or any other red colour. That is not the colour to anneal brass at. It may not do any harm if not over done but it does not have to be red.

Copper does need to be heated to a dull red colour to anneal properly but brass does not as it anneals at a lower temperature than copper.
Brass only needs to be heated to the change of colour which shows as light blue/black.

As for using molten lead to anneal, why would anyone want to expose themselves to a toxic and searingly hot substance when heated to the molten state. Yes we have to use it for bullet casting but most definitely not for annealing. The least time I expose myself to molten lead the better.

IIRC the annealing temp of brass is 450 F .

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
IIRC the annealing temp of brass is 450 F .

That is the temperature when brass starts the annealing process and at 650F would take about 15 mins to properly anneal. Obviously that is not going to work when wanting to anneal a small area of brass such as the neck and a little of the shoulder on a case and avoid heating the rest of the case to anywhere near the annealing start point so the temperature needs to be 700-750F for a few seconds at the neck area.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
I agree annealing does not need to be difficult or complex but please stop repeating this cherry red or any other red colour. That is not the colour to anneal brass at. It may not do any harm if not over done but it does not have to be red.

Copper does need to be heated to a dull red colour to anneal properly but brass does not as it anneals at a lower temperature than copper.
Brass only needs to be heated to the change of colour which shows as light blue/black.

As for using molten lead to anneal, why would anyone want to expose themselves to a toxic and searingly hot substance when heated to the molten state. Yes we have to use it for bullet casting but most definitely not for annealing. The least time I expose myself to molten lead the better.

eagle27 - Color validation - "cherry red" is not to be confused with a bright red. You can easily see the copper wash and then glow. That's as far as you need to take it. Any more and you will soften the brass and collapse the neck or shoulder during reloading.

Simple.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
I agree annealing does not need to be difficult or complex but please stop repeating this cherry red or any other red colour. That is not the colour to anneal brass at. It may not do any harm if not over done but it does not have to be red.

Copper does need to be heated to a dull red colour to anneal properly but brass does not as it anneals at a lower temperature than copper.
Brass only needs to be heated to the change of colour which shows as light blue/black.

As for using molten lead to anneal, why would anyone want to expose themselves to a toxic and searingly hot substance when heated to the molten state. Yes we have to use it for bullet casting but most definitely not for annealing. The least time I expose myself to molten lead the better.

eagle27 - Color validation - "cherry red" is not to be confused with a bright red. You can easily see the copper wash and then glow. That's as far as you need to take it. Any more and you will soften the brass and collapse the neck or shoulder during reloading.

Simple.

Depends on the cherrys you look at, some dull red, some bright red

Here is an example of the blue black colour showing that appears quite quickly and according to technical data on annealing as opposed to reloaders descriptions, this is supposedly the colour change to look for.

Actually it is similar to bluing steel with heat, first straw colour, then blue and any more heat the blue goes and we get into the red stage.

As I mentioned earlier a dull/cherry red is not going to do any harm to the case neck or shoulder area but for those that maybe interested in the technical side heating to any red colouring is not needed to anneal brass.

Use Templacq, guess and by gosh will ruin a good gun and perhaps the shooter..As one can see with all the different degrees of red suggested, its a wonder some are still around with enough fingers to work the computer!