We now have Kabluey preaching ethics. Kabluey tell us about the deer your buddy shot that laid there bleating and flailing for several hours while YOU just sat there. The deer was in plain sight and still nobody walked over and gave it a finishing shot. Then hours later it got dark it had made it to it's feet. You were unable to track it---but you could hear it. A severe case of .223 failure is his assessment. Yes those Eskimoes are lazy. Yes those Eskimoes shoot em and just let them die but Kabluey has ethics. And yes Kabluey comes down to the small cal section and trolls.

Bringing what Eskimos/Native Americans do when "hunting" is really quite dumb to say the least. They are not restricted by the same rules or "ethical" standards that "Sport" hunters are. Can they be wasteful with their actions? In some ways yes, especially when viewed against the "Mores" that enlightened "Sport" hunters are restricted to operate under.

With me, cannot speak for anyone else, the various .22 CF's can be and are quite effective, When Used By Someone That Is Experienced With The Particular Cartridge Being Used And Understands It's And Their Own Limitations.

It is when the in-experienced/occasional/once or twice a season hunter, a person that spends minimal time working with their particular gun, has little actual working knowledge of deer anatomy, little working knowledge about shot placement or bullet selection that gives the .22CF's a bad reputation among many hunters.

It is that lack of understanding that has helped convince some states place restrictions on caliber size/bullet weight/energy-velocity levels for hunting deer and larger game.

Regardless of how we as individuals feel on the subject, it has to be remembered that not everyone that hunts shares the same passion or knowledge that all of us geniuses on here do or claim to.

Bad or poorly placed shots, are just that regardless of the caliber used. The folks that believe in using the various .22CF's, more power to them, just do not expect that every other hunter across the board is going to agree with that choice. Just like those that start foaming at the mouth because another hunter says anything about using anything that has "Magnum" attached to its name. If a person wants to use a magnum and works within the particular cartridges limitations and their own limitations then that is great.

It is not great, when just as with the .22CF's, an inexperienced/neophyte gets all hot and bothered about going deer hunting and runs out and drops a wad on a complete scope/rifle rig in .300 Weatherby Mag and they may not have ever even shot a .22RF before.

Examples can be given all over the board especially by most of us on here simply because we have hunted enough on our own and shared hunting camps in one capacity or another with folks that had/have varying levels of skill/knowledge/expertise as a hunter.

From experience both here in fantacy land and in the Real World, NONE OF US are going to change ANYONE else's mind or beliefs.

The .223 is more than adequate to kill anything, if: the right bullet is used; proper shot placement; the person firing it knows the cartridge, the rifle being used, the anatomy of the target and his own capabilities at an intimate and expert level. I have friends from my former life that use nothing but an AR platform of some type for everything, but they are true experts in the sense I stated above. If someone meets that criteria and wants to use a .223, good luck and enjoy! As long as you know what you are doing; who am I to judge.

For years, military. paramilitary, guerrillas, former military, wannbe military, poachers and sportsmen have used inferior (and superior) military cartridges to kill everything on the planet. I would guess that military rifles and ball ammo have killed more game in Africa than all of the other cartridges combined.

Having said all of that, I have no need for that cartridge for anything other than varmits, 2 or 4 legged. Heck, I don't even own one. I have no doubts in my capability with that cartridge based on a lot of experience with it, it's just not my thing anymore. The equipment I use is an important part of my hunting and shooting experience. For hunting, I prefer to use "more cartridge than I need" just in case I do need it.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
We now have Kabluey preaching ethics. Kabluey tell us about the deer your buddy shot that laid there bleating and flailing for several hours while YOU just sat there. The deer was in plain sight and still nobody walked over and gave it a finishing shot. Then hours later it got dark it had made it to it's feet. You were unable to track it---but you could hear it. A severe case of .223 failure is his assessment. Yes those Eskimoes are lazy. Yes those Eskimoes shoot em and just let them die but Kabluey has ethics. And yes Kabluey comes down to the small cal section and trolls.

You really do have the gift of Exaggeration or embellishment. Apparently it applies to everything you say.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Bringing what Eskimos/Native Americans do when "hunting" is really quite dumb to say the least. They are not restricted by the same rules or "ethical" standards that "Sport" hunters are. Can they be wasteful with their actions? In some ways yes, especially when viewed against the "Mores" that enlightened "Sport" hunters are restricted to operate under.

That, in part, was my point as well. I get aweful tired of the posts re Eskimos or other Natives using the 223. The implication is because they are subsitance hunters they are the experts and if they are successful with it, then it's evidence of the effectivness of the cartridge. It's a different scenerio and not sport hunting. IMO, it's evidence of ignorance and a whole lot more, but their successes or failures don't make the little cartridge into something magic or something it ain't.

In real discussion of the use of the 223, mentioning the Natives is something of a red herring.

It's like mentioning the 223 as a child's cartridge, or a woman's cartridge. Somehow there is the notion that to criticize that is like being a racist, or saying something bad about children or women. It adds another level to the argument, levels of red herrings and taboos.

Yet, the physics of what the cartridge is actually capable of can easily be calculated, and completely devoid of human subjectivity, exaggerations and ego and embellishment and opinion.

Talking about shooting a polar bear with a 223 is nonsense. After all, who in their right mind would take a 223 brown bear hunting?

I'm still stuck on the basic question of who in their right mind would take a 223 deer hunting. The answer of course always comes back to nimrods like carpetman. To me, that says a lot.

Eskimos and carpetman in the same thought somehow is kinda weird.

KB

Kablower--Please tell us what is not true about the deer your buddy shot and YOU and him let flail, cry and bleat for hours in plain sight? Finishing shot--there was none. You blame it on your buddy--can you spell ACCOMPLICE? BTW you dont do very well at SUBSISTENCE.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Kablower--Please tell us what is not true about the deer your buddy shot and YOU and him let flail, cry and bleat for hours in plain sight? Finishing shot--there was none. You blame it on your buddy--can you spell ACCOMPLICE? BTW you dont do very well at SUBSISTENCE.

You conveniently choose to leave out certain parts of the story and embellish others.

First, it was the 223 AR that we are talking about. That's the most important part. What's this "hours" thing? It was more like 20 minutes, and not in plain sight, since mostly only the doe's head could be seen when she raised it above the grass. After the shot, she was laying on her side.

You are right, there was no finishing shot even though I suggested it almost to the point of being rude. It wasn't my place to do a finishing shot, and besides I would have to have shot across in front of my buddys - too close for comfort, and it would have been very rude.

You are right, the deer lay there and flopped for a long time, then lay still. We thought it was over, but when it got too dark to shoot, and we got down off the stand and took the golf cart over to pick her up, she had stumbled off into the thicket. His supposed "tracking" dog was only capable in his imagination. I never attempted to track the deer as it was too dark and too thick for me and the deer sounded rather mobile to me judging from the crashing as she got further and further in there.

The point is it's an example of overconfidence in shot placment to compensate for the lack of the cartridge itself. It was a neck shot that I doubt missed the mark more than 1/2". It was a lethal shot, but obviously not that day.

That doe would have been some good eating, but the buzzards and coyotes got it instead. Had my buddy been using the 6.5 Grendel that I sold him later, the outcome would certainly been different in this particular case. First of all, he most likely wouldn't have felt the need for a neck shot to make up for the insufficency of the cartridge. Secondly, even if he did a neck shot, the 6.5 would have likely not have failed, missing the mark only about 1/2". It's all about margin for error. The 223 is more demanding and the 6.5 is more forgiving.

There's nothing absolute or for certain about the scenerio described, but I'm reasonabley sure that the outcome would have been different had he been using an adequate cartridge, like the 6.5 Grendel.

Maybe that's too simple for you to understand.

BTW, one other and perhaps most important thing - my buddy quit using the 223 AR for deer hunting after that experience. At least I give him credit for that. His AR15 mostly collected dust after that, and he even started using his 270 for coyotes. He's made shots over 350 yds and says it just whack um. When I was out there about a month or so ago, I had his neighbor, a gunsmith, assemble three 6.5 Grendle uppers, for which I had been collecting parts a long time. I just casually mentioned that he should buy one, and I would make him a buddy deal.

So my hunting buddy bought one of the uppers and has been real pleased with it. He actually didn't know that it was a simple matter to swap the 223 upper for the Grendel upper, and it fit his Olympic lower very well.

His son is into the AR15s and when he shot the 6.5 Grendel his father bought, he sent me a text message asking if I would sell him an upper too. I'm still thinking about it. Now my hunting buddy is talking seriously that his 6.5 will become his go-to deer and hog rifle. I already know that mine is my go-to rifle.

He's not much on shopping over the internet, so I bought dies and brass and shellholder for him and shipped it all out there. He picked up locally some H322 powder, small primers and bullets.

I would never see a need for the 223 when I can tote a 6.5 Grendel instead for deer and hogs.

I don't class the 6.5 Grendel as a brown bear cartridge, but hit right with a 120gr Swift or Barnes TTSX bullet a bear wouldn't live long.

I wouldn't have a problem using it on black bear over bait, from a stand.

KB

Just another thread to entice the ego trip.
Why if you do not have to.

Kablowey---That's amazing that deer laying there is down to 20 minutes. It started out as 2 hours.(then it started getting dark and had walked off). You don't make a finishing shot on a downed deer from two hundred yards. You walk---excuse me drive your golf cart up to the deer and make it. You are correct it would be hard to track a deer on a golf cart. Certainly a championship tracking dog is needed when you can hear it. With all those difficulties--too rough for a golf cart and a less than championship dog it's one you gotta leave for the buzzards. All your speculation about what if it had been a bigger gun is just that--speculation. Really with no more than you have to offer on .223 threads I wonder why you join in. The rifle you used to flock shoot--the one that was not sighted in---you had no way of knowing it wasn't sighted in until your buddy checked it out--and told you. It wasn't small cal so that story doesn't fit here.

Kablowey--Now we have him missing the mark by 1/2" on a deer the buzzards got. Amazing--how do you know where hit? Of course a 6.5 increases the kill zone---hit em anywhere. I thought originally it was killed on another ranch is how you knew where hit.

I don't routinely reach for a .223/4 cal rifle for deer or any large game any more. However...I have shot countless white-tails as a kid with my Savage 340 .22 Hornet. And...I have always said (when talking about shooting Leopards with various guns) that if I had a chance to sit in a Leopard Blind to shoot a large leopard and all I had was my .22-250 with 60 gr NP bullets...I would do it in a heart-beat. I know a rancher in South Dakota that shoots elk cows with his .22-250 all the time. If you are a rifleman...a .22-250 (& other similar .224's),with good bullets...is a capable round.

Golf cart ? He really didn't admit to hunting from a golf cart did he ? You can't walk 200 yards ? I thought ATVs were the worst curse to real hunting, but a golf cart tops that by a mile.

This endless debate about using a varmint cartridge for big game hunting is either somebody's ego trip or just designed to stir the pot.

No useful information has been imparted that already has not been beaten to death on hundreds of websites.

If you can't handle the recoil of a 308, and are not handicapped and/or under 80 pounds you shouldn't be hunting any big game animal.

What is possible is not the issue to a REAL hunter. What makes for an ethical one shot kill is.

Real hunters don't shoot from cabins on stilts and ride golf carts. Sad what now passes for "hunting".

Pigmaster---Don't worry about the golf cart. Pretty soon it will be rugged terrain where they had to rappell cliffs and work their way through heavy vegetation with a machette.

quote:

Originally posted by pigmaster:
Golf cart ? He really didn't admit to hunting from a golf cart did he ? You can't walk 200 yards ? I thought ATVs were the worst curse to real hunting, but a golf cart tops that by a mile.

Real hunters don't shoot from cabins on stilts and ride golf carts. Sad what now passes for "hunting".

It's the way they "hunt" in Texas. You got a problem with that, take it up with a Texan.

"Golf cart" is what I call those fat tire electric off-road buggies that are getting so popular. If you got a problem with the carts, take it up with those who own them or use them regularly.

When I shot my last hog in Texas, I actually shot from the "Golf cart" because it was raining, and the darn thing had a canopy. Also it served as a pretty good stand, and the hogs were not spooked by the thing. They see farm equipment all the time. I had no place to hide and the levy was elevated. It worked and I have no problem with it.

BTW, the electric "golf carts" definately beat a 4-wheeler. On the hunting lease where my hunting buddy is a member, they don't allow 4-wheelers, but use the so-called "golf cart" because it's quiet.

I can walk 200 yds, or a mile, or more when I want to. But in the case of my story, why should I walk when there is a golf cart going my way? Why would I help drag a deer when there is a perfectly good golf cart with a low platform on the back specially made to load deer or hogs?

Sure, I don't call it real hunting either. It's more of a sniping or harvesting event. What's the difference in the technique I described and black bear "hunting" over bait with a rifle or bow, or the multitude of deer "hunters" across the nation who hunt from deer stands?

BTW, I skinned and butchered the hog myself. I also cook and eat it myself. At least I didn't need the outfitter's hired help to haul the dead critter out and skin it for me.

You can play intrepid nimrod and sneek through the woods playing Elmer Fudd or carpetman, and I too like to put the sneek on sometimes, but I also like to hunt from a stand, and I like the "golf cart".



KB

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Kablowey--Now we have him missing the mark by 1/2" on a deer the buzzards got. Amazing--how do you know where hit? Of course a 6.5 increases the kill zone---hit em anywhere. I thought originally it was killed on another ranch is how you knew where hit.

You have to be a Repug. How do I surmise that? Because to you a lie is always better than the truth; it has a certain flexibility. Embellishments and exaggeration serve the same purpose as a good conspiracy theory and are limited only by imagination, offering vast usefulness in messing with others and creating manufactured controversy, producing red herrings to avoid the real issues.

You should take up political writing for the Repugs. You would do well.

How do I know where the doe was hit? Because my buddy told me, and we had been shooting the rifle for accuracy that afternoon before going to the stand. The rifle is very accurate, and my buddy is a very good shot, and he had a rest.

You are mixing stories, but what does it matter? If it stirrs the pot, why worry about keeping it straight?

I even know the brand and type and weight of the bullets he was shooting, which is more than you have known until just recently about the lifetime supply of bulk varmint bullets you have been shooting and spouting the virtues for years.

It makes me wonder what else you've been spouting for years, which you have no clue of what you are talking about, but just spouting to hear yourself.

KB

Kablowey--Good thing you have buddies keeping you informed. You didn't even know a rifle you were flock shooting deer wasn't sighted in until your buddy told you. The only thing consistent about your stories is that the .223 didn't gut, skin and quarter the deer for you. Use a bigger gun who knows? Ask your buddy. No way your buddy could practice, have the rifle sighted, have a rest and be off a little. With that much absolute certainty about EVERY shot I'm sure he holds numerous championships. Of course basketball players making millions aren't 100% on free throws but after all a free throw is 15 whole feet from the backboard.

Wait. Kawiki who pulls a gun back off Gunbroker because he screwed up the ad and didn't put a minimum on it and is afraid it will not bring what he wanted AFTER it has bids and long before it is due to expire is talking about ethics???? That's a good one.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
Wait. Kawiki who pulls a gun back off Gunbroker because he screwed up the ad and didn't put a minimum on it and is afraid it will not bring what he wanted AFTER it has bids and long before it is due to expire is talking about ethics???? That's a good one.

Everyone is entitled to a mistake. It resulted in the only bad feedback out of way over 100 transactions. My average ain't bad - 99% or better the longer from the event. You can judge me unethical from that mistake, as it is only a reflection of your intent, lack of good faith and poor judgment.

After all, who's more unethical, a guy trying to take advantage of a mistake and get a $1000 gun for a penny, or the guy who refuses to be taken advantage of, under the circumstances?

I think it's interesting that you have stored in your memory such old trash. I bet you have a head full of it on many people, just stored back awaiting the opportunity to use it somehow. What a guy.

It's amusing to see the same about ole carpetman, and even more amusing that he can't keep it all straight, or perhaps it's intentional that he skews it. Most likely that's the case, based on the observation that he skews most everything he writes one way or another, to the point that nothing he says or writes is reliable.

You are in like company with ole carpetman.

Using a 223 on deer or bigger game isn't a mistake. It's intentional, especially if done repeatedly, and more especially if bragged about and the results embellished.

KB

Bet that renege on the gun listing was not kablowers fault. His buddy probably forgot to tell him to have a reserve. None of his numerous mistakes are his fault.

Sorry to let you down, carpetman, making a mistake and all. Obviously we are not compatable company, you being perfect and all, and having 110% success rate with the 223, and all your hunting friends and relatives having a mere 100% success rate in comparison.

It's so difficult being in a world with ole carpetman setting the standard. Feel my pain.

KB

Would this be a bad time to talk about how many deer I have shot and lost with 22 short hollow points?

It would be a great change of pace, and appreciated, to have some unembellished stupidity told. It would certainly beat the lies we so often get in these threads.



KB

quote:

Originally posted by AndynMe:
Would this be a bad time to talk about how many deer I have shot and lost with 22 short hollow points?

It's never a good time to talk about poaching

A golf cart ........ it has to be a joke.

Probably has a swimming pool stocked with Large Mouth Bass too.

Guess we have more real cowboys in Florida, who ride horses than Texas eh ?

Seen adults riding golf carts here up at The Villages, but they are really old.

At 70, I'll take my horse and he can go places no golf cart (or ATV) ever can. Also a lot more quiet and can smell a bear a lot better than a golf cart.

Cabins on stilts, golf carts and probably bait spreaders too. Have a machine rest for the rifle ?

I steadied my rest on the dash of the golf cart. Put the bullet in exactly the right spot, while he was busy eating the corn the feeder spread about 15 minutes earlier, per the timer set to go off twice a day, morning and evening.

I never heard a whinny out of the golf cart, blast between his ears. Betcha you couldn't do that from your horse.

The golf cart never complained about having a dead hog loaded on its backside either.



KB

What's really funny is Lawrence Root, (pigmaster/bumfarto/4barexpert/silverbullet/ 45-70shooter/artshaw, etc, ect...) feeling compelled to continually circumvent the wishes of the Moderators, Admin. and/or Owner for him to be gone from a web sight where he is neither welcomed nor wanted.

Why are you back yet again Larry??

Rather pathetic.

quote:

Originally posted by Moderator GeorgeS:
bumfarto/4barexpert/silverbullet45/artshaw/45-70 shooter,


Why do you keep registering here? You've been removed repeatedly.

Take the hint - you are not welcome here.

George

I have only addressed deer on my posts here..As for Larger Bears, I wouldn' by choice use a 22 of any kind, rather a 338 or a 30-06 with 200 gr. Noslers. UNLESS I had a high tree stand and a close bait so I could make a head shot, and I still would not do that by choice...Deer are one thing, bears are a "nuther"!

A bears fuz sucks up blood like a seive and finding a bear that runs can be very difficult if its not in snow...

My minimu large black bear caliber would be a 30-30 Win with 170 gr. corelokts.

I feel strongly that you should use enough gun to be respectful of both the game we are hunting and of the critters we may meet when hunting.

This thread is embarassing.

Dan

quote:

Originally posted by Dan H:

This thread is embarassing.

Dan

Yep, the whole thread is just a stunt to take the "223 on deer" argument to a ridiculous level.

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:

quote:

Originally posted by Dan H:

This thread is embarassing.

Dan

Yep, the whole thread is just a stunt to take the "223 on deer" argument to a ridiculous level.

It is a ridiculous subject. Any decent gun enthusiast should have something more than a glorified jack rabbit rifle for hunting deer.

I'll bet more eskimo's use 243 win more than the
223 Rem. Also, critter's that can or will eat/kill you
are deserving alittle more respect than the 223 gives.
But don't ask this Vietman era vet about the 223. Oh, and
the 14 shoots a 308 win cartridge, not the puny 223 Rem.

quote:

Originally posted by AggieDog:
I'll bet more eskimo's use 243 win more than the
223 Rem. .

Really?
Where did you pull that from?
.243's don't run so well in their mini 14's and AR 15's, but enlighten me further.

Eskimos tend to use 22 Hornets, 222 Rem and the .223 seems to be the caliber of choice these days, they survive on seal, and its the perfect seal gun and works fine on the great white bears with a head shot..They like cheap ammo and the .223 offers that., they can carry quite a lot of ammo on long hunts. Nobody has told them the 223 won't work..

All this stuff is controverys, if you can manage yourself then about any gun/caliber will do a good job, but only if applied properly, get close and place your shot. Works the same with a 22 L.R. or with a .600 N.E.

I have seen or know of game wounded with large calibers and small calibers, in each and every case it was user error, even those with excuses were user error.