I am looking to work up loads for a new .264 on a pre-64 M70 action,26" Krieger barrel.1 in 9".
Have new Norma and Win brass, would like to use Barnes 120 gr. TTSX. Have a good selection of powders to choose from already, just shy of load data for this bullet.
Anyone out there shooting these Barnes'?
Thanks.

PM Stonecreek or maybe he will chime in. He shoots and loads for the ole .264

Y'all are about neighbors anyway.

I really like the 264 WM. Sorry, I don't use the Barnes bullets but the powders I have had the best luck with are 7828 IMR and H870. My best load is 130 gr. AB with 75 gr. H870 using Win. mag. primers. Don't know how much help that is to you but I bet you will fall in love with the 264 when you find your load.

Aggie, I agree w/ Mike. I load 140g Partitions for myself w 7828.
I also load 120 BTs for a friend and use Imr 4831 b/c that's what looked good in the Nosler manual. It also shoots very well. I have not chronoed it and do not intend to.

If you haven't gotten hold of Stonecreek:

Try WC-872 or Hodgdon US-869 with the best BC 140 grain bullet you can find for hunting.

These powders will give you the velocity that the .264 Winchester Magnum is capable of. Anything else handicaps the cartridge and reaches high pressure well before reachable velocity levels.

WC-872 is what Stonecreek loads and I have 8#'s to work on as well. Getting well over 3200 fps with the 140's

I'm hesitant to comment since I have very little experience with the monometal bullets (and none of it good) and no experience with them in a .264.

However, with conventional bullets as light as 120's, you can get fairly acceptable velocities with pistol powders like 7828. If you want the .264 to do things that common cartridges can't do, then you need to move to truly slow powders like WC-872 and 130 or 140 grain bullets. Rcamuglia reports that US-869 is disappointingly faster than WC-872, which means that it might do fine with 120's, but I haven't used this powder.

When Sperical H-870 (and its cousin with granules the size of firelogs, H-570) was available, it was a pretty dependable powder for the .264. AA-8700 is supposed to be similar, but not having actually used any I can't make a recommendation.

You do have the proper barrel length for a .264. Do you know if your chamber was cut with the SAAMI spec zero leade (why Winchester did this remains a mystery beyond wonder), or if it uses a more convential leade? This will make a huge difference.

I'm just about out of my H870 and was wondering what to replace it with. Guess I'll try the WC872. Any load specs to stat with would be appriciated.

Aggie

My second centerefire rifle was a Winchester re 64 Mod 70 in 264 Win Mag.

Back then I used original 4831..

However now I would try IMR 7828.


For the 120 Barnes bullet I would start with 60gr and work up. Around 65gr would be max...

Thanks so far, everyone. I will find some 872 and look at heavier bullets as well. I definitely want to "get my money's worth" out of what the .264 has to offer.
I don't know how the chamber was cut, Kevin Weaver chambered this gun, I'll find out from him.
I will basically be looking for a couple of different bullet weights, and try them at longer ranges to see which actually performs better.
Thanks again.

quote:

Originally posted by mikem0553:
I'm just about out of my H870 and was wondering what to replace it with. Guess I'll try the WC872. Any load specs to stat with would be appriciated.

First, be cautioned that surplus powders are not spec'ed to cannister standards, so they may vary some bit more than commercial powders.

The only loading data you will find for WC-872 will simply say "use H870 starting loads" or something to that effect. Typically, WC-872 is about 10% or more SLOWER than H-870, so an H-870 starting load will be almost a "squibb". I can't advise as to the most prudent procedure, but digesting this information you can proceed as you feel comfortable.

I can tell you that in at least ONE gun with a SAAMI chamber and ONE PARTICULAR lot of WC-872 in ONE particular brass case, 80 grains of WC-872 with a 140 grain bullet is near a maximum charge. I can also tell you that in a chamber with the leade lengthened, more powder works fine. I'll guarantee that information to be worth at least as much as you paid for it.

Don't even think about working with a .264 if you don't own a chronograph, and don't even buy any surplus powder unless you also have such a machine.

Good advice, and worth more than what it has cost so far.

I always use a chronograph when in new load development, as I otherwise just have no way to determine when I'm approaching dangerous ground until it's too late.

Once again, greatly appreciated.

On another note, how would one go about adjusting the starting load if switching from IMR 4831 to H4831sc.
I was advised of a load that worked well in rifles cut with this same chamber, doesn't mean the barrels will shoot the same, but several rifles have shot it well. But I have 15# of H4831, so if I could use that, I would.
By the way, the 'smith said the leade was .045".

quote:

I can tell you that in at least ONE gun with a SAAMI chamber and ONE PARTICULAR lot of WC-872 in ONE particular brass case, 80 grains of WC-872 with a 140 grain bullet is near a maximum charge. I can also tell you that in a chamber with the leade lengthened, more powder works fine.

Ditto, what Stonecreek said above. I am shooting 140 grain Nosler Partitions and I can barely squeeze 79.5 grains of WC-872 into virgin brass and my loads are slightly compressed.

quote:

Originally posted by Aggie:
On another note, how would one go about adjusting the starting load if switching from IMR 4831 to H4831sc.
I was advised of a load that worked well in rifles cut with this same chamber, doesn't mean the barrels will shoot the same, but several rifles have shot it well. But I have 15# of H4831, so if I could use that, I would.
By the way, the 'smith said the leade was .045".

H4831 is significantly slower than IMR-4831. If you have a load worked up with the IMR, then you can expect to add several grains of "H" to equal the pressure. The two powders are so different that they should never have been given the same number.

If you were to suggest a 140gr bullet to use in the 264, which one would it be?
I have some Bergers at the moment.

IanD-

Well, there's the 140 grain Nosler Partition, as well as, the 140 grain Nosler AccuBond.

30 Caliber Mag Fan,
how did that H-870 & H-570 powder work out for you?

Rae59-

I haven't put the powder to work yet but, hope to soon.

Thanks for checking with me.

Best regards,

Aggie: another vote for IMR7828 (the bullet I use is the 125gr Partition). and IMO, a 120-130gr premium bullet in the 264 is all you need for Texas. No advantage to the 140's that I can see.

Stonecreek-The reason that Winchester used that gawd-awwful leade in the factory rifles was that the original bullets had short shanks and the front of the ogive rode on the top of the lands. The bullet(140gr PowerPoint) was quite long and the base was even with the base of the neck, and you know how long that is. That leade was the reason I got rid of my Westerner pre64. At the time I couldn't get a gunsmith to lengthen the leade. The rifle is still killing deer and caribou in Alaska...I wish I were.
The rest of the equation is H570. It was not crocodile tears that fell from my eyes when I ran out and found out I'd never see any more.
As I understand it, H570 was a powder used in 20 mikemike during WWII and IT had been replaced by what we call H870, and that's why they were old surplus powders. Later, Hodgden had some more made, and Accurate got some of the overrun. I've used both H870 and AA8700, both are excellent in this, the .264, but I no longer have one.
FWIW, I've been thinking a .270 Gibbs will be what I replace it with, but there've been too many other projects.
Have fun,
Gene

Nevmavrick: Yes, Winchester used a "two-diameter" bullet, but that was necessitated by the zero-leade, not the other way around.

Most people don't realize that Surplus 4831 was also a 20mm powder.

Alliant has recently introduced, but not yet begun distributing, a new 50 BMG powder called Reloader 50. It is said to be similar in buring rate to WC 860 which ought to make it a good candidate for the .264 and cartridges with similar powder needs like the 7mm STW and Ultramag.

quote:

I'm just about out of my H870 and was wondering what to replace it with.

RL-25 is an option.

I've got 16 pounds of 872 if you want to figure out how to get you some, you can have as much as you want. I may be able to work out something with a local gunstore to ship it to you.

quote:

Originally posted by rolltop:

quote:

I'm just about out of my H870 and was wondering what to replace it with.

RL-25 is an option.

RL-25 might do fine with 120's and lighter, but it is somewhat faster than H-870 and would not be optimal with 140 grain bullets. RL-25 is actually only marginally slower than RL-22, or in another apt comparison, just a tad slower than IMR-7828.

Of course, judging from the reputation of the RL series to be somewhat more variable than most powders from lot to lot, it might depend on which lot you happen to be working with.

Start light and work up----shoot it slow-----let it cool down between strings or you might end up with a 264 shotgun

I just took delivery of my first 264 WM. 26” Krieger 1-9 Twist. Had the chamber cut to allow 140 Sierra bullets to be seated even with the neck. My goal was to get 3200 FPS with this bullet. Initial Max loads with Retumbo, RL 25 and H1000 using published load data were shooting under 3000 FPS in my rifle. Factory Remington loads were at 3120 FPS. After a little more work I landed on H1000 and was able to get to 3200 FPS with no signs of pressure despite being several grains over the published Max. Actually was getting close to 3300 with no pressure indicators but accuracy was starting to go away and I did not feel the need to push things to the limit so I went down a grain. Anyhow I am far from an expert on this caliber however it appears in my rifle H1000 is the ticket. Retumbo gave me problems with little or no warning…had the same problem with the 7MM Ultra Mag and also in the 338-378 Weatherby. Difference of 1 grain could cause flat primers and sticky extraction. I shoot a lot of RL 25 but started to flatten primers in my rifle as I got close to 3200FPS. This was my first time using H1000 and I liked it. I might try it in my 6MM-06AI too.

Slightly off topic but related. I have just bought a pristine Remington 700 ADL in .264WM with a factory S/S 24" barrel. Built 1964-1970 I beleive. It has fired 100 - 150 rounds.

Does anyone know what chamber/leade was in this model ?

It has a 1 in 9" twist and I hope to use 120-130 grain hunting projectiles.

Well, I've worked on some load development in my .264.
Using Barnes 120 TTSX, IMR4831, Norma brass and FedGM215M primers. Was several grains over book max @ 65.5 grs, velocity over Oehler chrono reached 3360 fps avg. No signs of pressure yet. Tried the Barnes rec. of seating about .050" off lands, not as accurate as other loads I've shot seated touching lands. Would seating closer increase pressure in the same loads?

Also shot some IMR7828, same components, up to 68 gr. but started seeing light scratches on casehead about even with the ejector slot, so I assume this is approaching high pressure??This load was accurate at 3448 fps, when I backed down so did accuracy.

Would y'all be afraid of this 68 gr. load? No sticky bolt lift, primers looked same as starting loads, just worried me about those tiny little scratches. At this velocity I've got to be at max pressure, would you not think?

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
However, with conventional bullets as light as 120's, you can get fairly acceptable velocities with pistol powders like 7828. If you want the .264 to do things that common cartridges can't do, then you need to move to truly slow powders like WC-872 and 130 or 140 grain bullets.

IMR4831 is much faster than IMR7828
Rcamuglia reports that US-869 is disappointingly faster than WC-872, which means that it might do fine with 120's, but I haven't used this powder.

When Sperical H-870 (and its cousin with granules the size of firelogs, H-570) was available, it was a pretty dependable powder for the .264. AA-8700 is supposed to be similar, but not having actually used any I can't make a recommendation.

I would guess if you are getting the velocities you say with IMR4831, you are shooting 70k psi loads....

Well crap...thought I was getting somewhere for a minute.

FWIW, Quickload shows the 4831 load running 70,991 psi and the 7828 load at 64,580.

quote:

....Was several grains over book max @ 65.5 grs, velocity over Oehler chrono reached 3360 fps avg....

Careful! Especially with the .264.

Try some US-869 if you can't get any WC-872. It will be pretty good.

Also, didn't mention...
with both powders there was a nice straight- line graph of 55-80fps per grain of powder added, never got to the diminishing returns I've noted before. I didn't ever see what I would recognize as pressure signs, except as noted above. I just stopped because I became limited by testicular circumference.

Do you have a starting point for the US 869? I have no experience whatsoever with that powder. Thanks for the replies and advice.

Rcamuglia...

Again, thanks. Why the special caution with the .264? Due to excess case capacity? Or is there another reason? I take it catastrophe can strike without warning.
Is there a source for WC872?

75 grains would be a starting point or the start load for H-870 which is not manufactured any more. The 869 is slower than the 870 IME. You'll find no data for this powder as most data for the .264 is old. Check Steve's pages for the start load for H-870.

I think I topped out with pressure evident at around 81 grains and the 130's.

Start there and maybe load 1 shell in increasing .5 grain increments. Fire them in low charge to higher charge order over your chronograph. Better yet, shoot it as an Audette Ladder at 300 yards. Vary the charge by .3 grains per shell till you have the last shell loaded at around 81 grains. Fire them at the same point of aim at the 300 yard target. Mark each shot on the target with its number and how much powder was in the case. STOP SHOOTING WHEN YOU SEE OBVIOUS SIGNS OF PRESSURE!

With this method, you will find a safe max for your rifle and the accuracy node simultaneously.

Load them .030" off of the lands.

Do you know how to measure the maximum over all cartridge length for the bullet you are using for your rifle?

Well, FWIW Quickload shows 3115 fps with 78 grains and only 51,200 psi. I worked it up to 82 grains for 3315 fps and 61,825 psi (120 gr TSX BT). Both are compressed.

Thanks tiggertate!

I think it should help aggie..

quote:

Originally posted by Aggie:
Rcamuglia...

Again, thanks. Why the special caution with the .264? Due to excess case capacity? Or is there another reason? I take it catastrophe can strike without warning.
Is there a source for WC872?

It's just that there is no data for the slower burning powders. If you use the relatively fast "pistol powders" Stonecreek refers to, you can get pressure problems sometimes without warning. The cartridge is overbore.


Stonecreek is correct in stating that you need to be your own ballistician if you load for the .264 Winchester Magnum.

Concerning correct COL for a given rifle, yes I measured that properly, was playing with seating depth as I usually just seat .050" off lands, but wanted to tweak it a little better.

When working up my load ranges, I loaded 1 cartridge each of 1 gr increments, until I got to near max book, then .5 gr. each, shooting each in ascending order over chronograph. I either stopped when noting pressure signs, or just when velocity got so high that I figured pressure signs or not, I HAD to be over pressure. Then backed down, started shooting for groups, but still think some of these may be too hot.

Tiggertate confirmed this (THANKS) with his Quickload report on the loads, just surprised that I couldn't see any signs of it.