Hi everyone. I am new to this forum and am interested in working up reduced loads for my young boy.

I have Sierra 100gr SPBT bullets and Sierra 75gr HP. I read that IMR 4350 is no good for reduced loads (in the 2000 fps. range) so I picked up IMR 4198 for a 19 gr. load (100 gr. SPBT) load and 17 gr. load(75 gr. HP) as listed in my Speer reduced load manual.

I used Toilet Paper filler to keep the powder in position as recommended on other forums- the manual recommended Dacron. I also have Unique on hand which I use for my pistols and had no idea you could use it as Seafire recommended:

quote:
Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
Anyway, I figured an MV goal would be 2000 fps with a 100 grain Bullet or so..

So what I got was a charge of 14 grains of Unique under a 100 grain Rem Corelokt, and on top of a CCI/LR primer...

Mv was right at 2000 fps ( avg of 2008 fps)..

Accuracy with a 4 power scope at 100 yds, was within the bullseye which was the size of a half dollar (if those are still around any more)..."

He stated that he does NOT use filler with Unique and the 2000fps. and low recoil sound exactly like what I want for him to PLINK - not hunt.

I am assuming these are jacketed bullets you are using - not cast - and do you guys have any experience with light loading the .243 with IMR 4198?

Great forum and thanks for any responses. Wayne

I also did not mention that I have IMR 4227 and 2400 on hand too. The toilet paper is not really used a s filler but more like a wad to keep the IMR 4198 powder against the primer. I have read the use of one sheet of one -ply TP rolled up and lightly placed and also some use 1/4 sheet in the same way. Anyone with experience with this in the .243 Win.? Thanks, Wayne

quote:

Originally posted by aerostarp:
Hi everyone. I am new to this forum and am interested in working up reduced loads for my young boy.

I have Sierra 100gr SPBT bullets and Sierra 75gr HP. I read that IMR 4350 is no good for reduced loads (in the 2000 fps. range) so I picked up IMR 4198 for a 19 gr. load (100 gr. SPBT) load and 17 gr. load(75 gr. HP) as listed in my Speer reduced load manual.

I used Toilet Paper filler to keep the powder in position as recommended on other forums- the manual recommended Dacron. I also have Unique on hand which I use for my pistols and had no idea you could use it as Seafire recommended:

quote:
Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
Anyway, I figured an MV goal would be 2000 fps with a 100 grain Bullet or so..

So what I got was a charge of 14 grains of Unique under a 100 grain Rem Corelokt, and on top of a CCI/LR primer...

Mv was right at 2000 fps ( avg of 2008 fps)..

Accuracy with a 4 power scope at 100 yds, was within the bullseye which was the size of a half dollar (if those are still around any more)..."

He stated that he does NOT use filler with Unique and the 2000fps. and low recoil sound exactly like what I want for him to PLINK - not hunt.

I am assuming these are jacketed bullets you are using - not cast - and do you guys have any experience with light loading the .243 with IMR 4198?

Great forum and thanks for any responses. Wayne

How old is your son & how big is he?The 243 is really a mild recoiling rifle. I bought a Rem 788 243 rifle for my then 12 yr old son and loaded it with 33.5gr of IMR 4895 with a 100gr bullet(I also used Ball C2).It was like shooting a 22 to me and he had no trouble with it or the mild recoil.

He's 11 y/o and average size. Don't get me wrong. He can shoot 20 rounds of factory hunting ammo at a sitting bench resting (he's been shooting one caliber or another in rifle and handgun since he was 3) but he could plink all day so the request for lighter loads. We also shoot 20 ga. trap and skeet on the same range that day so it would be nice to give his shoulder a break with a lighter load since he loves to shoot. Thanks, Wayne

Just now saw this post...

for versatility, here is load data for the 243 using Blue Dot.. you will find it consistently more accurate with all bullet weights vs Unique..

Remember to approach max load with caution and work up.. I can't be responsible for other folks loading techniques..

also charge a case and then seat a bullet, before moving onto the next cartridge.. this eliminates the chance of a double charge if using some of the smaller charges....

Blue Dot Range Report; 243 Winchester

Rifle Used: Winchester Varmint

Barrel Length: 26 inches

Case Used: Remington New

Primer: Fed 210

Max: Capacity: 41.0 grains

Capacity Tested: 8 ( 20%) to 24 grains ( 60%)

1. Bullet : 55 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip OAL: 67.50 mm

8 grs: 1785 fps 13 grs: 2381 fps 18 grs: 2979 fps
9 grs: 1927 fps 14 grs: 2525 fps 19 grs: 3078 fps
10 grs: 2096 fps 15 grs: 2633 fps 20 grs: 3182 fps
11 grs: 2128 fps 16 grs: 2750 fps 21 grs: 3285 fps
12 grs: 2241 fps 17 grs: 2898 fps 22 grs: 3342 fps

23 grs: 3471 fps 24 grs: 3555 fps

Max Is recommended at 22 grains for reliable brass life.


2. Bullet: 60 grain Sierra Hollow Point OAL; 67.50 mm

8grs: 1675 fps 14grs: 2404 fps 20grs: 3047 fps
9grs: 1779 fps 15grs: 2526 fps 21grs: 3159 fps
10grs: 1869 fps 16grs: 2591 fps 22grs: 3227 fps
11 grs: 2018 fps 17grs: 2718 fps
12grs: 2167 fps 18grs: 2809 fps 23grs: 3286 fps
13 grs: 2305 fps 19grs: 2961 fps

Max is recommended at 22 grains for reliable brass life.

3. Bullet: 75 grain Hornady Hollow Point; OAL: 69.50 mm

8 grs: 1279 fps 13 grs: 2082 fps 18grs: 2604 fps
9grs: 1639 fps 14 grs: 2211 fps 19grs: 2704 fps
10grs: 1755 fps 15grs: 2280 fps 20grs: 2761 fps
11grs: 1882 fps 16grs: 2424 fps 21grs: 2798 fps
12grs: 1989 fps 17grs: 2499 fps 22grs: 2958 fps

75 grain Hornady Continued

23 grs: 3016 fps

Max is recommended at 22 grains for reliable brass life.



3. Bullet: 80 grain Winchester SP: OAL: 69.50 mm

8grs: 1340 fps 14grs: 2159 fps 20grs: 2725 fps
9grs: 1578 fps 15grs: 2265 fps 21grs: 2811 fps
10grs: 1696 fps 16grs: 2298 fps 22grs: 2826 fps
11grs: 1894 fps 17grs: 2462 fps 23grs: 2928 fps
12grs: 1928 fps 18grs: 2552 fps
13grs: 2069 fps 19grs: 2665 fps

Max is recommended at 21 grains for reliable brass life


4. Bullet: 87 grain Hornady SP: OAL: 69.60 mm

8grs: 1057 fps 14grs: 2026 fps 20grs: 2580 fps
9grs: 1434 fps 15grs: 2108 fps 21grs: 2652 fps
10grs: 1558 fps 16grs: 2226 fps 22grs: 2741 fps
11grs: 1683 fps 17grs: 2323 fps 23grs: 2782 fps
12grs: 1806 fps 18grs: 2415 fps
13grs: 1898 fps 19grs: 2487 fps

Max is recommended at 22 grains for reliable brass life.



5. Bullet: 95 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip: OAL: 70.50mm

10grs: 1520 fps 15grs: 2080 fps 20grs: 2514 fps
11grs: 1648 fps 16grs: 2159 fps 21grs: 2601 fps
12grs: 1757 fps 17grs: 2250 fps 22grs: 2693 fps
13grs: 1868 fps 18grs: 2295 fps 23grs: 2740 fps
14grs: 1974 fps 19grs: 2420 fps

Max is recommend at 22 grains for reliable brass life.



6. Bullet: 100 grain Hornady SP; OAL: 69.25 mm

11grs: 1575 fps 16grs: 2113 fps 21grs: 2512 fps
12grs: 1724 fps 17grs: 2207 fps 22grs: 2581 fps
13grs: 1828 fps 18grs: 2299 fps
14grs: 1927 fps 19grs: 2365 fps
15grs: 2019 fps 20grs: 2438 fps

Max is recommended at 21 grains for reliable brass life.


7. Bullet: 105 grain Speer SP; OAL: 70.50 mm

10grs: 1270 fps 16grs: 2050 fps 22grs: 2561 fps
11grs: 1521 fps 17grs: 2142 fps
12grs: 1668 fps 18grs: 2239 fps
13grs: 1757 fps 19grs; 2311 fps
14grs: 1837 fps 20grs: 2412 fps
15grs: 1928 fps 21grs: 2483 fps

Max is recommended at 22 grains for reliable brass life.



Conclusions:

1. I consider the 243 much more versatile for a first rifle using these loads than starting a younger shooter out on a 223 or 22/250. It will duplicate the other two rounds, plus has the ability to handle a heavier bullet while still giving mild recoil characteristics.
2. The 243 offers a wide variety of bullets from 55 grain to 105 grain for hunting, and even 107 and 115 grain bullets for long range target shooting and competition.
3. Some bullets that are lighter than other bullets reach max pressure signs at lower powder charges, than a few heavier bullets. This is caused by the load bearing surface of the bullet.

Observations:

1. Contrary to what is usually seen, or expected: In using trees about 8 inches in diameter as backstops, I noticed that in the 2200 to 2800 fps range, most of the varmint bullets were actually penetrating thru the trees completely. Since they are suppose to be fragile for varmint applications, I did not expect to see this. However It was observed in the 55 grain Ballistic Tip, the 60 grain Sierra Hollow Point and the 75 grain Hornady Hollow Point.
2. Therefore it is my PERSONAL conclusion that these bullets might be considered as potential bullets on deer sized game in parts of the country where deer only get to be Antelope sized animals.
3. If this is done, the results are strictly the responsibility of the handloader and shooter. IN the 2200 to 2800 fps range, the rear core is staying intact and not exploding like is advertised a varmint bullet should do. Over this speed the bullet is performing in the explosive manner as designed.
4. I got input from other shooters on an internet forum asking about their experience with this bullet, there were some successes, some failures, and many recommendations for a larger bullet. However, if someone desires to use these varmint style bullets, I advise testing them yourself and analyse your results before deciding to use them.

As always, work your loads up from a point long before listed maximum.

I hope that this information is useful in teaching new and young shooters how to shoot properly and safely. Recoil will be substantially less than typical factory loads. This should assist in accurate shot placement by the shooter.

Cheers and Good shooting
Seafire, May 2004

Hi! I don't want to sound rude, and this isn't meant to be rude...but I think you are going down the wrong road. Even with a full house load - or say 2,800 fps - there should be no recoil with the 75 grain bullet.

I don't know the reason for your choice. Clearly saving money cannot be a reason as unless you are using cast bullets AND ALREADY HAVE LUBE DIES IN .243 the difference in the powder loading is going to be pennies. And if you've got to then buy another powder specifically for the reduced loads?

Is it that you can't physically take two rifles out with you, that you have a worry about noise, or a worry that a "full house" load is too much "carry" for where you and you son are intending to go plinking?

I personally would not continue with the route you are going. I would buy a decent bolt action good quality accurate secondhand or even new .22 R/F, FITTED WITH IRON SIGHTS put a decent quality telescopic sight on it and give it to your son. He can then learn to use it with and without the telescope. A sort of a rifle and 'scope that you actually might want to keep! A good Ruger M77?

And at the same time tell him that in America, with all its faults, at least you still have the right and liberty to buy and give him that rifle. In Britain I cannot do the same for my son as it is illegal!

He can plink all day with then you can maybe set him goals to achieve in return for which he can use the .243 with normal loads. Also as the ammunition is affordable you may even suggest he "buy" his own from his pocket money by giving the money to Dad to get a couple of boxes a week.

I also think that a .22 R/F will, in the long term, be better for the protection of your son's hearing. Twenty rounds in a single session should be enough shooting with a .243 in any case.

You'll never shoot the barrel out. And personally with good ammunition unless it has been out in the rain of snow I never ever clean any .22 R/F.

As I said as you are reloading I don't actually think that you are saving much in terms of money whilst still expending the same effort. More effort if you go down the cast bullet route!

I also actually think that he will learn a lot more, especially about hold over, range estimation and the effects of bullet trajectory and windage, using the .22 R/F than he ever will using the .243.

And when the day comes, it is hoped when you are still alive but perhaps when you are gone, he will perhaps be able to give that .22 R/F to his son with the words, "Grandpa gave me that when I was the same age you are now."

Just my opinion but I hope it helps.

Hello Seafire2:
That was an incredibly informative and thorough post. Thank you for your time and expertise.

It seems to me I have drawn the ire of some members here as to WHY I am doing this and that it is a waste of time. My kid who is 11 as I stated above handles the full factory recoil in his .243 easily and without complaint. After a box or 2 of this ammo and shooting 20ga. (50 - 100 rds.) at clay birds he gets a little achey but does not want to stop. He and I thought that if he did not want to leave the range I could cook up some reduced loads which I have not done before for rifle and he could still go on shooting.

Since I love to reload anyway it seemed like a good idea. That is all I am trying to achieve and frankly with all the criticism I received other than from you and a couple of others I have abandoned the idea for the most part.

I will try the IMR4198 25gr. to start with 75gr. Sierra HP and work up from there.I had seen the 32 gr. recommended on a couple of other sites and just threw it out for comment.
I might also give the Blue Dot a shot also.

I appreciate your and others assistance who answered my questions in a professional rather than condescending manner. Thanks. Wayne

Dont worry aero, hes not mad at you, hes pissy about living in freakin england! I would be pissy if I were him also.

It isn't meant to be a crtiscism and I am sorry if you thought it was. It is just that some of us have been there already, seen it, done it and got the t-shirt.

I think it is a false avenue, that's all.

I've tried reduced loads, in 303 British and it is a real pain. You've got to size and lube the bullets, unless under 1500fps have got to use a gas check and in most cases anyway pure linotype not lead.

Lastly in all probability you'll need an additional expander plug for your die set so as not to "shave" the lead bullet. And if you get it wrong and get a bullet stuck in the barrel you will curse.

I apologise if it sounds discouraging but maybe others should be as honest as I try to be.

If you want to go the reloading route then maybe a a lever gun in a pistol calibre or a bolt gun in .22 Hornet?

Well Aero and Enfield...

To answer both of your questions raised...

Actually I started using Blue Dot in the 223, from an article I saw posted on a web site from a company that specializes in 19 Caliber bullets and rifle rebarreling....

I tried it in a 223 and found some fantastic results...especially considering this was from a perspective of high volume shooting in a single afternoon where you can burn thru 500 rounds of ammo or more..

Accuracy was astounding..
Barrel heat was very low.. and cooled off quickly..
Recoil was reduced dramatically..
Using a max of 14 grains of powder per case, a lb of powder couple give one 500 rounds of ammo..
Barrel wear would also be dramatically reduced, burning less powder, and generating less barrel heat...

Needless to say, that was appealing...
in fact after several years of use, I traded off one rifle that had 15,000 rounds down the barrel and was still maintaining accuracy...

So I figured if it worked well in a 223, why not see what it could do in a 22.250.. so I tried that, and got the same results and flexibility....

Then on the opposite end of the spectrum, I noticed that Blue Dot powder data was available for the 44 Rem Mag handgun.... owning a 444 Marlin, I decided to try it in that and see what I got... using 44 Rem Mag load data, once again, great accuracy, much reduced recoil.. economically appealing....

Well after that, I decided to migrate that testing up to the 243 Winchester and found the same results...

So finally, the use of Blue Dot migrated up thru calibers of increasing bore sizes....

Goals after the 223, were to aid young shooters to work up handling recoil... I am both involved in Boy Scouts and also have a young son myself, who was recoil shy...
He no longer is that recoil shy now, but he still enjoys range sessions with Blue Dot, as it doesn't contribute to shooter fatigue...


Most folks who criticize working with Blue Dot or reduced loads, normally haven't had any experience with it... it is foreign to them, so they criticize it...

Or if they did have experience with it, it was bad experiences, so they downplay anyone else trying it..

I have few people who have finally tried downloading and working with Blue Dot or SR 4759, or IMR 4198 or RL 7, 2400 or IMR 4227, tell me that it didn't do as claimed...

but of all the above powders, Blue Dot and SR 4759 consistently are the least finicky to work with, can really be accurate in barrels not known for being accurate.... from being shot out, or just bad barrels.. they seem to still shoot Blue Dot and SR 4759 pretty darn good...

Faster powders supply less max velocity, particularly as bullet weight increases.. however too many people are held up on max velocity...

Seasoned shooters know we always don't need max velocity....

as I frequently see at our local range.. we have tons of guys yearly, trying to zero rifles that they seldom shoot, except for hunting season.. yet they feel that they have to have a rifle with 3500 ft/lbs at the Muzzle with an MV of 3300 to 3500 fps... and capable of a 500 yd shot.. to kill some 90 lb Blacktail, normally shot at 100 yds or less...

Even with a magnum... Blue Dot or SR 4759 will allow one to shoot that rifle a lot more often, a lot more inexpensively, and without adding tons of barrel wear to it each year between deer seasons...

Blue Dot or SR 4759 are not position sensitive in the case, from my experiences.. even in magnum cases...

So each person can make up their own choices...

I just pass on information that I have worked on and developed.. to share with fellow shooters, at really a no charge basis...some folks have graciously sent me a few items such as bullets here or there... or contributed to my son's boy scout account at times...( which I thank them sincerely)....

But I believe, that anyone can use any powder in any type of a cartridge.... you just have to know the cartridges parameters, the powders parameters and see if the combo makes a good working relationship toward the job at hand...

Blue Dot, SR 4759 and other faster powders seem to do the job, within the parameters that I list..

But I sincerely believe AERO, you are going in the right direction for your son.. with the same motivation I did for my own son....

But you will also find it opens a whole new avenue to casual, economic, but accurate shooting possibilities...as I frequently say.. why do you need a 500 yd load, to make a 200 yd shot??.....

Enfield. I don't interpret your posts as a slander or offensive in many ways.. I think it was done respectfully, and you bring up legitimate questions... I submit humbly in return, that after working with some of these reduced loads.. that the opinions I use to share with you, have changed....
I probably have about 40 to 50 types of powders on hand by my reload bench.. I keep at least a pound of each of the major powders on the market that I would ever conceivable use....
I like experimenting and reloading.. instead of watching TV or something of the sort..

However, I still burn more Blue Dot annually, in all calibers I shoot ( a bunch of them).. than any other powder.. it is both economical, but also is minimal on barrel wear and throat erosion...

when I go to the range and shoot at 100 and 200 yds, why do I need a 500 yd full power load?

Learning to use a mil dot scope, I can stretch out a 200 yd load, easily to 400 and 500 yds.....hence why I shoot a lot of reduced loads...

Bottom line, I really believe Blue Dot will at the minimum triple the life span of a barrel over the normal factory style loads...I've seen it done in a 223... the guy who bought my old traded off 223, had put at least another 2,000 rounds thru it, and it still was shooting dime sized groups at 100 yds...now with 17,000 rounds down the barrel...

Folks on here can tell you, I work as much with loads developing max velocity as I do with those developing lower velocity.. so I work with both ends of the spectrum...

I can tell you I shoot more reduced loads, as they are much more flexible and enjoyable...and can in many instances accomplish about 90% of what most people ask of full max power loads...

Aero, \
there are a lot of experiences shooters and reloaders on here, that will verify that Blue Dot loads work and do everything I say they will.. and do it safely...

I hope you don't give up on downloading.. as it is good for both yourself, your son and any shooter...

many decades ago, a lot of people shot reduced loads.. Townsend Whelan, Jack O'Connor, P.O. Ackley are just some of the few people who wrote about the usefulness that reduced loads added to a rifles versatility...

Those guys carry a lot bigger name and experiences than I do... but they had the same thoughts.. so what I do, is really nothing new... I guess I just work with it, when most companies' marketing depts are going the other way....

Ackley and O'Connor even consider a 257 Roberts a good elk calilber... folks nowadays would have you believe that a 257 Roberts was no more responsible to hunt elk with , than carrying a 22 Long rifle...If it doesn't say magnum nowadays, you don't have enough gun.. and if you can't handle a magnum then for some reason, you just aren't man enough...

personally I see all that as a bunch of BS.. reduced loads and practice help shooters to become better shooters.. and putting the bullet where it needs to go is the first thing on the agenda in hunting.. not how many ft/lbs , or velocity the load carries...

But that is contrary to the 'popular wisdom' on the circuit...

aerostarp

I think finding a good reduced plinking load for you son in his 243 is an excellent idea.

My 10 old nephew hunted with me this fall and killed 2 deer with a 308, one with the Remington 125gr Managed Recoil load and one with the "full" power 168gr Winchester Ballistic Silvertip.

When he gets "his" 308 I plan on loading him a lot of reduced plinking loads.

I like reduced loads too. My favorite is 13 grains of Red Dot in a .458 Win Mag that pops a 400-grain cast out at just around 1100 fps, with a .22 LR report.

Hello Seafire:

I only meant I was giving up on the filler reduced loads. I was excited to see your responses and I am going to pick up some Blue Dot today and start working up some of the loads you suggested. Great subsequent responses from other members and that was what I was hoping for. Sounds like Blue Dot meets all the parameters I needed.

I have one question - How did you determine a safe starting load for the other calibers you loaded that powder into when there was no information available in the manuals (at least in the couple I have.) You said you read an article on the .223 that got you started but how do you determine the safe starting load in the .243, 22-250 etc. I have some loads posted in my Speer manual for handguns but not for rifles. Curious on how you do that. Wayne

If you can obtain an old Lyman 45th Edition Loading Manual you will find cast bullet loads for all the rifle calibres for which Lyman made moulds listed.

Whilst Blue Dot is a relatively modern powder by comparing its burn rate with Herco and Unique for which loads are listed you can work it out that way.

Hello Seafire:

I saw in past posts that you had emailed the same type of charting for .223 rem. with Alliant Blue Dot to some members. Wonder if you could post that chart here since I load for that caliber too. Thanks, Wayne

Hi Seafire:

I did find in past posts some of your recommendations for the .223 but I have one question. My other son shoots a Ruger Mini-14 in that caliber - will the reduced loads cycle the bolt?

Thanks, Wayne

Wayne,

Drop me a PM if you have specific questions, a lot of guys do, and have in the past...

Recoil is reduced substantially enough with Blue Dot, that it WILL NOT cycle the bolt on an AR or a Mini 14...

I have worked up loads with Blue Dot on the following calibers...

223, 22.250, 243, 6mm Rem, 260 Rem, 6.5 x 55, 7 x 57, 8 x 57, 30/30, 30/06, 300 Win Mag, 338 Win Mag, 338/06, 30/40 Krag, 444 Marlin.. I am currently working on the 7 Rem Mag, but once again, winter has a way of getting in the way of our plans...

I also just got a 204 barrel delivered today from a fellow forum member, and will be working up Blue Dot loads for that caliber also....

for the site that got me started on the concept, see an article on this web site called " To 218 Bee or NOT?".....

it is on the james calhoon website...

www.jamescalhoon.com

As far as deciding on starting charges, that was sort of taking a cross country route... from patterns in other cartridges and comparing known charges with other powders in certain cartridges and comparing burn rates.. I figured out what would be a good mid range charge of Blue Dot, then I worked both up and down from that point, after determining the starting point was safe...

I really don't recommend doing this to a novice.... one has to keep his eyes open on safety, when working up loads with an unknown powder....

That is kind of why I share my data, so that others will have some point of references.. and really know where the max is.. I go beyond what I recommend as max, to determine where max is...

But at those points, you notice no increase in velocity to speak of, but you notice hard bolt extractions etc...

All my work is aimed at bolt action rifles also...it will work fine on pumps also...it will shoot accurately in semi autos, but it won't cycle the bolt... some guys live with that, but I couldn't... but then, that is why I am a bolt action kinda guy, and don't use progressive presses, even on 223s...

I don't know who got Seafire2 to accept a 204, but I am very proud of them!

I shoot cast in .243 and actually shoot them right there velocity wise with jacketed bullets. Good cheap shooting---not worth a darn on a deer.

Bought some Blue dot the other day and am going to the range today to test some loads. I will be shooting:

1) IMR 4350 42gr. with Sierra 100gr. BTSP (Hunt)
2) IMR 4350 43gr. with Sierra 75gr. HP (Target)
3) Blue Dot 18gr. - 20.5gr. with 100gr. BTSP
4) Blue Dot 19gr. - 21.5gr. with 75gr. HP
5) IMR4227 & IMR4198 25gr. with 100gr. & 75gr.

Will let you know how they work out. Wayne

Got back from the range a little while ago and this was my experience:

1) Same case, bullet, powder etc. - Neck Sizing a once fired case from my rifle more accurate than Full Length Resizing a fired case from someone else's rifle.

2) IMR 4350 42gr. with 100gr. Sierra BTSP gave sub-MOA. This bullet would not group well at all with Blue Dot loads from 18 - 20.5 gr.

3) Blue Dot 19gr. with 75gr. Sierra HP gave sub-MOA and drastically reduced recoil and muzzle blast. A great load for my son as hoped. Groups opened up progressively with 20 - 21.5 gr. Blue Dot.

4) IMR4227 and IMR4198 both at 25gr. with 75 gr. Sierra HP gave sub-MOA with reduced recoil and muzzle blast but not as much as was reduced with Blue Dot.

My new loads are therefore:

HUNTING -IMR4350 -42gr. with 100gr. BTSP Sierra TARGET -Blue Dot-19gr. with 75gr. HP Sierra

Any suggestions for 45ACP/200gr. LSWC and 9mm. Luger/125gr. LRN with Blue dot?

Thanks, Wayne

I have been using BD for several years for the lite loads. This year I used the BD loads exclusivly for deer hunting. Let me say that in most cases the loads worked very well. I got three with 243wssm, 100gr. sp, 20gr BD and one with 45-70, 300gr cast, 20.5 gr BD.

The only "bad" result was on the first deer at 200yds with the 243. It was a broadside shot. At the shot the deer fell and kicked several times. I should have shot again. After a min. or more the deer got up and ran off. When looking for the deer, there was no blood trail to follow. The deer was never found. Of course, I have no idea what went wrong. Maybe this load just isn't a 200yd load.

The next three deer were taken with the 243. The first, a doe at 75yds was hit behind the ribs on the right side. The bullet was found under the hide in front of the left shoulder. It had expanded perfectly. However, the deer ran 200yds and there was no blood from the entrance wound. This deer was recovered. The next deer, 8pt, was hit at 80yds in front of the left shoulder, just below the neck. The bullet exited behind the right shoulder. The deer did not take another step and the bullet was not recovered. The next deer, 8pt, was almost a carbon copy of number 2. The bullet hit high behind the shoulder and exited from the neck. The deer did not move.

The last deer, a doe, was taken with the 45-70 at 100yds. The bullet entered in front of the left shoulder, exited behind the right shoulder, and entered the right rear leg, shattering the bone. The bullet was found under the hide in that leg. The nose of the bullet was deformed but did not appear to have expanded. The deer did not take another step.

Would I use BD loads again? Absolutely!

I think it's great what your trying to do with the reduced loads. Another plus along with lower recoil is longer barrel life! And, I think it's just a lot of fun shooting the reduced loads. For my Ruger .243 I have worked up a super accurate load using 18 grains of Blue Dot with a 65 grain V-max bullet. I do not use any filler. In my gun this load has superb accuracy. It may not work so well in your gun--every gun has its own favorite loads.

Thanks Red C and Hunt1415. I am delighted with the Blue Dot load results. Wayne

Any youngster can shoot a 75 to 85 Gr. bullet in a 6mm at 2800 FPS..That is almost 0 recoil and it will kill like the hammer of Thor up to 150 yards or more...To go below that is apt to wound or kill slowly and discourage a kid, whereas a clean kill will forever bring him into the fold...

I have to agree, use the reduced loads for practice. Shoot the 85+ hunting loads, preferably prem bullets.
You never notice recoil hunting anyway, only off bench.

If you get some elec hearing protection and have kids wear it, even when hunting, they won't be as deaf as we are.

RC

Gentlemen:

I agree wholehartedly. The reduced loads are just for plinking and target practice as I mentioned above. He can shoot the full power loads easily and I will use the 100gr. IMR4350 loads for that. The Blue Dot loads are just for practice and fun. Thanks for your concern. Wayne