There is a nifty couple of threads going on about the 6.5 Grendel...It is pointed out its merits in an AR 15/M16 compared with the 6.8 SPC, the 308, and the 223....for military use...

I myself am a bolt action guy, and am not carrying any of my rifles into combat....

I therefore still think the 260 Remington is a better choice than the 6.5 Grendel in a bolt action application

However, at the bottom of this article, which was linked by a member.....http://www.65grendel.com/65g_devnotes.htm

At the very bottom, it lists results of using a 120 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip, with a MV of 2600 fps... I have long said that the Ballistic Tips are a totally different bullet when launched at 2700 fps or under from the muzzle....

A lot of guys also say, that the 6.5 mm bore just doesn't cut it for game larger than small deer....

I don't know how much credence you guys put into Ballistic Gelation as an indicator of a bullets ability to penetrate.. I find it a good reference if nothing else.....

Well as the article points out.....

Launched from the Muzzle at 2600 fps...

The 120 grain Ballistic Tip, at 300 yds!

Penetrated 18 inches! of ballistic gelatin

Expanded to a diameter of half an inch ( 50 caliber).... 0.51 inches!

Yet still retained 75 % of its weight! and the lead core didn't separate at all!


That is some pretty darn impressive results in my opinion, especially at 300 yds!

this kinda shows, fast high velocity magnums with bigger bore capacity don't hold the market on what is lethal and what is not.....

Would a bullet that retained 75 % of its weight at 300 yds, after penetrating 18 inches of ballistic gelatin, and expanding to double its diameter, be a worthwhile round to consider for elk sized game???sure would in my book....

and consider that the MV was a lowly 2600 fps!

yeah, I don't feel undergunned at all with a 260 or 6.5 x 55, or my favorite, 6.5 x 57, and a 120 grain bullet at 2600 to 2800 fps!
It may not be overly macho.. but it will darn sure get the job done when the bullet is put in the right place, on a large game animal!

( and you guys, that want to bring up grizzley's and mountain lions etc, forget it!, I am not talking about it being ideal for those animals...

It will do for the mountain lion, but I'd prefer a 12 gauge in that environment any way!

pretty impressive in my book!

cheers
seafire

I bought a 40x Remmington in a 260 about 4 years ago. I have punched paper and hunted with the rifle. I agree with your fully that the 120gr Nosler Ballistic Tip is about as good as it gets for performance on deer sized game. Where I hunt, my average shot is about 180 yds. Boom, whap and my animal is on the ground. On paper with the 120gr Sierra Match bullets it gives unbelievable accuracy with IMR-4064. It is a shame the 260 is overlooked by many.

I responded to the other thread first. This really has my wheels turning now! And you know what I was thinking!

A short .260R would push a bigger bullet faster but whats wrong with what you are seeing? And for a small shooter, a low recoil round that'll get-r-done will reaally boost confidence! Nate

I think anyone who says that 6.5's are only good for small deer is playing with a short deck. Heck the Europeans have been slaying moose with the 6.5x55 for decades. Guess we just want to kill stuff a little deader on this side of the pond.

For my money, a 140 partition is really all you need over here unless the thing is really big and it bites.

Gabe

The swedes mainly shoot cows and calves with their 6.5's
When they intend to shoot bulls they frequently switch to a 30-06 or one of several popular 9.3mm catridges and even Magnums like the 358Norma and 338winchester.

The 6.5x55 is the MINIMUM legal cartridge for shooting what the swedes call "elk" and we call "Moose".
the implied statement that the 6.5x55 is THE cartridge for moose shooting in sweden is simply not true.
that it does work is true.
That a 22LR will kill a whitetail has been proven man, many times, but it is neither wise nor legal to do so.

that being said, the 6.5x55 and the 260Rem (properly handloaded) are probably capable of doing anything that can be done with a 270Win or 25-06.


AllanD

Funny the 260 is overlooked by many as back about 10 years ago when I built my 6.5/308 just before Remington intro'd the 260, I thought of it as a short actioned 6.5 Swede that would be as close to the ideal dual varmint-deer round possible. I also shot a 6BR back then and to see how many shooters have since p/u on both rounds. I built those guns to fill a void/niche for a blend of performance, sufficient ballistics, tolerable recoil, great accuracy, and long barrel life.

Seafire, having built a 7BR to avoid necking 6.5 BR brass, I have viewed pros of the Grendel's Lapua brass and ammo, and I hear Wolf or someone is also making or will mfg ammo, I think the grendel will take the place of the BR if I go that route, in a bolt, the diameter of the face IS different and I am not sure if a 308 bolt size works with factory extractor, none the less, I even thought of a Ruger no. 1, of course ideally, a Sako PPC with a repeater set up as they were made in the A1's, would be very neat. IT and a sako vixen in 6 x 45 or TCU would both be lots of fun and you can shoot them all day w/o wearing your shoulder, ears, or barrel out.

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
The swedes mainly shoot cows and calves with their 6.5's
When they intend to shoot bulls they frequently switch to a 30-06 or one of several popular 9.3mm catridges and even Magnums like the 358Norma and 338winchester.

The 6.5x55 is the MINIMUM legal cartridge for shooting what the swedes call "elk" and we call "Moose".
the implied statement that the 6.5x55 is THE cartridge for moose shooting in sweden is simply not true.
that it does work is true.
That a 22LR will kill a whitetail has been proven man, many times, but it is neither wise nor legal to do so.

that being said, the 6.5x55 and the 260Rem (properly handloaded) are probably capable of doing anything that can be done with a 270Win or 25-06.


AllanD

Not trying to start a pissing match on this one but here is what I found about minimum bullet weight energy figures for moose in Sweden.



Permitted firearms and ammunition
Only rifles can be used for certain game, including moose, red deer and bear. For ammunition the following requirements apply. Bullets which weigh at least 10 grams (154 grains) must have an impact energy of at least 2.000 joules at 100 metres from the muzzle. Bullets which weigh between 9 and 10 grams (139-154 grains) must have an impact energy of at least 2.700 joules 100 metres from the muzzle.


Here is the link to the site.

http://www.jagareforbundet.se/huntinginsweden/default.asp#7

Doing the conversion using 1.356 joules to the foot pound.

for 154 grain and up 1475 foot pounds min at 100 meters

139-154 grains 1991 foot pounds min at 100 meters.


Nothing mentioned about specific minimum bore sizes that I have been able to find as of yet. Though there might be for Finland and Norway.

Cow moose are not that much smaller than bulls if you are talking European moose or Canadian moose on average. Of course this can vary from indivudal animals or populations of animals. I am not too sure on the Alaska Yukon moose size differences between male and female. If I remember correctly the largest size difference in the moose subspecies was in the Shiras Moose.


Maby our friends from the Scandanavian countries that are members here could shed some more light on the caliber bullet weight energy minimums for European moose.

The swedish minimums were based on what the 6.5x55 was capable of.

Essentially, it's difficult to reach those minimums
with any smaller, less powerful cartridge.

Yes, swede's use the 6.5x55, but more swedes opt for something more powerful.

IF I was lucky enough to draw a Moose tag my 6.5x55
would stay home, as the minimum I'd use is a 30-06

AllanD

While I don't own any .264's of any flavor they certaily have proven thier abilities over the years. The ballistic data doesn't always tell the whole story for any cartridge.

Rather than list specs in regulations lets look back at the topic.

"6.5 as a hunting round"

The little 6.5 Grendel with a 144gr nearly equals the ballistics of the .308W with the 147gr nato round. The .308W is widely accepted as adaquate. The Grendel for all practical purposes should be a very capable round for deer.
The .260 Rem is bigger yet, as is the 6.5 Redding (nearly identical), but the 6.5 BR falls inbetween. How about the 6.5-284, 6.5 Rem Mag, 6.5-06? Not bragged on as much anymore is the .264 WM.

It is as a caliber a proven hunting caliber in several flavors. But where do you draw your line?

I'm no proponent of .224 cal on deer. It can be done but it challenges a marksman.
I don't care for the 6mm's really as they are still more of a varmint round.
The .257" is the first real deer round that has proven it's effectiveness in my eyes.
Then we reach the .264's.

How could it not be capable as a hunting round?

I did a search for the 6.5 Grendel and found write-ups that the Army brass is wanting to get away from the 6.8 and has openly hailed the merits of the 6.5 Grendel over it for it's ballistics and performance on light armor.

I don't think I'd try to use the little Grendel on an elk hunt or for moose. But for a kids deer/antelope rifle it may prove to be quite the ticket.

Look at how many deer have fallen to the .243W and think about how anemic it is.

Clearly the 6.5mm is huntable! Nate

The 6.5mm is a very sound hunting round, but it is just like any other round out there the main limitations are the skills and the brains of the operator! Someone who knows what the capability of the rifle they are holding and their own skills are and has the intestanal fortitude to pass on shots that exceed those limits.

IMO .224 is capable of deer sized game expecially the larger ones like the 22-250 ect... I've probably seen a dozen deer or so taken with a 223 out to 200 yards all of them were one shot kills where the deer were standing no tracking involved. On the other hand I've seen numnuts that are lacking the brain element I mentioned above take questionable shots with 30-06's and had to track them half a mile or so.

243 I personally wouldn't take bear hunting myself but I've seen 3-4 black bears taken with 243's and each did a fine job. 243 is legal in my state to hunt elk with .224 is legal for deer. I think that the 6.5mm is getting towards the low end I think on Elk sized game but is large enough to work. I personally wouldn't take one elk hunting but that is my personal preference the 270 Win would be my min. for elk

Like said in one of the previous posts if it is larger than an Elk and Bites I would be packing one of the larger 30 calibers at a min.

The 6.5mm in skilled hands would be a very good hunting round.

Seafire, I do believe that once again you have nailed the 6.5 issue. The real question here is to match the cartridge to the action. The 6.5 Grendel is a specialty item designed for the AR platform. The 6.5 BR, and .260 Rem and other cartridges more suitale for the bolt actions would be superior in differing applications. Additionally the ballistics of the 6.5 bullets are what make all of these fine cartridges shine so well. When thinking AR, I am still infatuated with the Grendel, but my Hart 6.5/284 is in a whole different class of performance. When I show a new shooter a 150 grain .30 cal. bullet and then lay out a .30 Carbine round and then a 7.62 X 39, .30-30, .300 Savage, .308 Win, .30-06, .300 Win, .300 Weatherby etc... I make my point by saying they all shoot the same basic bullet, but the horsepower varies, so does the range. This is why our friends in the Big Bore forum understand that caliber is necessary for some different results.

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
the implied statement that the 6.5x55 is THE cartridge for moose shooting in sweden is simply not true.
that it does work is true.
That a 22LR will kill a whitetail has been proven man, many times, but it is neither wise nor legal to do so.
AllanD

I don't think I implied that the 6.5x55 was the European moose cartridge of choice at all. I simply and accurately stated that it was done and I further implied that it was a normally accepted practice, which it is. Also a see no parallel between deer hunting with a 22LR and big game hunting with an appropriate big game cartridge.

What is striking is that there such a huge difference of opinion between the two continents. Over here, the 300 winnie pushing 200 grain bullets with 75 grains of powder wasn't big enough. So we just had to come up with the 300 ultra mag, 30/378, and the long Lazzeroni all burning over 100 grains of powder. But soon we found the 30 cal bullets were prone to bounce off so we decided we "needed" the .338 version of all these rounds to ensure that the hide is breeched every time.

It is truely embarrassing the marketing trash we fall for.

Gabe

My 6.5x55 is my first choice when hunting deer, though I suspect I'll take a 30-06 or 270 to Africa. It isn't so much that I believe there's a real difference in the effectiveness as it is my adhering to the recommendation of the PH whom I've paid big bucks for advice. He may - possibly - know something I don't...

My only real problem with the 6.5x55 is the lack of good recipes for loads. I don't necessarily need to firewall all my loads, but it would be nice to get closer at need than load levels that could have been offerred in 1894.

Jaywalker

I have no experience with the 260 Rem or 6.5x55, but have shot a 6.5-06 or 264 Win Mag for 25 yrs now. And it is safe to say that a 140 gr Nosler Part from 2600 - 3200 fps kills with authority and I expect the 130 TSX is more of a good thing. 6.5mm is not the prefect elk caliber but it has got the job done for me more than once. For deer and sheep a 264 Win Mag is about as close to prefect as you can get if you handload and I think the Swede and 260 are right there with it out to 300 yds.

Saludos..Frank

quote:

Originally posted by papaschmud:
I don't think I implied that the 6.5x55 was the European moose cartridge of choice at all. I simply and accurately stated that it was done and I further implied that it was a normally accepted practice, which it is. Also a see no parallel between deer hunting with a 22LR and big game hunting with an appropriate big game cartridge.

What is striking is that there such a huge difference of opinion between the two continents. Over here, the 300 winnie pushing 200 grain bullets with 75 grains of powder wasn't big enough. So we just had to come up with the 300 ultra mag, 30/378, and the long Lazzeroni all burning over 100 grains of powder. But soon we found the 30 cal bullets were prone to bounce off so we decided we "needed" the .338 version of all these rounds to ensure that the hide is breeched every time.

It is truely embarrassing the marketing trash we fall for.

Gabe

Gabe, While you didn't Imply it others on here frequently do...

And on the big mags?
You won't ever see an "ultra" anything in my gun safe.

I'm not a particular fan of the 300WinMag
or the similar 300WBY (though I do believe they have their place).

I'm certainly not a fan of the even bigger 300Ultra or 30-378WBY or the Lazzaroni cartridge.
I think the 300Mags as a class are "too light for heavy work and too heavy for Light work".
and making them even bigger doesn't change this.

I think that anything you can kill with a 300mag a 7mm Mag will probably kill just as well, if not better, because less recoil makes hitting things with a 7mmMag easier.

If there is a difference in recoil between a 7mmRemMag launching firewalled 140's
and a 30-06 doing the same thing (firewalled handloads) with 165's my shoulder can't feel it...

OTOH, IMO The 338Winchester shooting 210gr or 225gr bullets is one of the best Magnum cartridges for BIG NorthAmerican animals
And is probably THE cartridge to use on Moose, Elk or the big Bears.

But truth be told I don't wake up in a cold sweat wrrying about armored animals and bullets bouncing off of them.

What I worry about is saving for years for an Elk or Moose hunt, seeing what I consider the perfect animal lined up perfectly in my sights, having the trigger break perfectly....

THEN having an unseen twig deflect the bullet off to never-never land and I come home empty handed....

Back in the early 90's I shot a doe with my 45-70 Marlin 1895 (I've had this gun since the early 80's before it was "cool" to have one), the 400gr Barnes "Original" bullet (1990fpsMV)went through a 3" Hickory tree, wandered through the deer (end to end, though avoiding all major bones) and ambled through another 4" Oak tree and eventually came to rest at an unknown depth (Though least 8" deep) into a 2foot diameter oak tree further downrange...

I doubt that the bullet encountering any "heavy" bone in that 125lb doe would have affected it's path any more than either of the fully penetrated hardwood trees did.

IF I ever get a Maine Moose tag I'll take the 45-70 loaded with MAX handloads topped with 300gr Partitions.

that's as Anti-newfangled as I can be


AllanD

quote:

Originally posted by papaschmud:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
It is truely embarrassing the marketing trash we fall for. Gabe

roger

I finally got two 264 win mags the other year in Ruger Stainless model 77 markII.They are awesome guns.I used the Lapula 155 gr mega tip bullet the one they shoot moose with the 6.5x55 with.I shot two pronghorn at 350 yards in Montana last year and the gal that watched me shoot them said she had never seen any hit harder than the ones I shot.She was watching me shoot them.There was very little meat damage and it flipped them in their tracks.I shot a 275 pound whitetail at 15 yards with the same bullet and it worked awesome.I like those high sectional density not so bad bc .377 bullets.They shot down to 3/8" group in my rifle.I bought 1000 of them they are so awesome.I like h-870 in my 264s.I tell you what its hard to find a cheap 264 these days.Remington is coming out with its Sendero in a 26" stainless barrel that will be an awesome gun .I am buying at least one probally two if I can.

I'm very happy with my wildcat 6.5 WSM. It has killed everything its been aimed at (but only had it for two hunting seasons). Would I shoot a Colorado elk with it? Sure! But would be more likely to screw off that barrel and screw on its brother...a .338 WSM. I just like the bigger hole.

Everything in Africa was killed with the 6.5x54 Mannlicher Schoenaur and the 6.5x53R Roumanian Mannlicher from 1895 up to the 1920s, using the 160 grain bullet. Of course shot placement was critical. But moose are easy to kill compared to elk and the 6.5x55 with 140 grains and up, if placed reasonably well, is perfectly adequate.

quote:

Lapula 155 gr mega tip bullet

These are the bullets I want to use in my new 6.5X55mm when done, but i am still trying to figure out whether to us the 1:7.5" twist or the 1:8.5" twist?

I've used (very successfully) the .25-06 for deer and pronghorns for many years and have recently moved up to the 6.5 X 55. I've bought five bullets to start handloading including several Nosler partitions and 120 grain Northforks. Also Hornady's SST and soft point 129 grain bullets.

There's no doubt that if one of these shoot well in my Mauser '98 in 6.5 X 55 that anything under 400 pounds is in serious trouble. It's slightly more bullet than the .25-06 and that caliber has proven itself many times over.

I don't consider it a moose cartridge but if I had nothing else.....it'd do.

I can hardly say it better than virgillinus did, the 6.5x54mm family has killed every species of big game on Earth, including Polar Bears and Elephants. It's just a matter of bullet placement.

LLS
Mannlicher Collector

Hurray for the 6.5s on deer. Beware of too much velocity in dense woods.