Went out with friends yesterday. One of the rifles was a 'silenced' 223 with over-barrel suppressor. Well, this thing sounds like a silenced 22lr HV! It is wayyy quieter than my suppressed hornet (although my hornet suppressor is a lot smaller).
Astounding!

From my experience with a T8 on a 220 Swift, it reduces the sound but it certainly doesn't bring it down to .22rf levels.

When I say 22rf levels, I mean suppressed HV 22rf levels! Astounding! I think it has to do with the speed of the bullet. The duration of the bullet crack is so short that little noise is generated. The intensity of the crack seems to be independent of speed and size, from what I can gather. Even so, all the muzzle blast has to be suppressed for anything to be that quite! I couldn't believe how quiet this thing was, except that a friend built a 'silencer' for his min-14 in 223, some years ago and the results were the same.

As someone who lives in California, you guys are making me jealous. I've never even seen a suppressor and I probably never will.

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you guys are making me jealous. I've never even seen a suppressor and I probably never will.

Aahhhh.... It is sooo.. nice! No disturbing of anyone, minimum disturbance of your quarry, no hearing damage... sometimes they even look good! (Sometimes they look real bad! This quiet one looks bad).

Hey 303Guy, Quite a nice set of rifles.

"If" the Moderator(aka Silencer) segments(Pipe and Washers) were welded closed and the weld lines ground down and polished, and "if" it was long enough to extended all the way to the beginning of the Action so none of the barrel could be seen, it might fool some folks into thinking it was just a Bull Barrel.

Thanks! My thinking exactly! (The 'bull barrel' concept).
The fore-end isn't big enough to accommodate a full-length suppressor on the plastic stock - that one is my 303-25 (which I haven't fired yet but hope to take hunting this week-end). I might do something like shaping an extension over the fore-end. (That is just an aluminium tube that 'might' end up as the suppressor). The top rifle - my 1902 303 - has a big fat fore-end (that I made) and that has plenty room for a 'bull-barrel' suppressor.

With the 'bull barrel' idea - if I place supports at strategic points along the barrel, it might just have the effect of a heavier barrel! (I hope).

The Remington 512 is the one I restored and have since fired thousands of rounds out of. Dead silent with that little over-barrel 'silencer'. (One of my creations. It only has three baffles - but they are shaped!)

ThreeO, sure you can suppress the muzzle blast, but what about the sonic boom?

I've never tried it with a centerfire, but with a HV RF, the bang went away, but firing in the open at long range, the sonic crack echoed around so much it sounded more like a rifle shot than before.

And in long range target shooting, while marking at the targets, the sonic crack is VERY loud as the bullet passes over, well before the distant muzzle blast turns up.

How can you get away from that???.

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ThreeO, sure you can suppress the muzzle blast, but what about the sonic boom?

This is the curious thing. A silenced 22lr only makes so much noise from it's sonic 'crack'. That's what a silenced 223 sounds like! They say a supersonic bullet generates a sound level of 147 dB. That is still loud but is not at the shooters ear, but is generated over the whole of the bullet's flight path. With a very quick bullet, that is over a very short time period so the total noise level generated is much less. My hornet is much 'louder' than a 223 for that reason.
So, the difference between a silenced and an un-silenced 223 is astounding!

I have just 'witnessed' the firing of a fully suppressed 308 Win. It was definitely quieter than an unsuppressed 308 and the bullet crack was distinctly audible but it was by no means 'silent'. Another suppressed 308 with an over-barrel suppressor (large) was less 'quite'. (Disappointing to say the least, especially since the guy spent over $500 dollars on it). Then my own creation (a prototype actually) was compared to the second 308 mentioned and was indistinguishable from it. My device is a tad smaller and is fitted to a 303-25. Now this rifle had an awesome muzzle 'crack' that was said to feel like a physical blow (but then, why would someone stand next to a rifle being fired, without hearing protection?) I can shoot this rifle now with only earplugs and the recoil is un-noticeable. ( It was never a heavy recoiling rifle).

This is all it is. It adds 50mm to the barrel.

The difference between my ar-15 suppressed and unsuppressed is very dramatic. While the crack of the bullet is very clear when suppressed, it is not loud unless I shoot from under weather protection. Then the muzzle blast and crack are loud enough to require hearing protection.

Ranb

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Originally posted by ranb40:
The difference between my ar-15 suppressed and unsuppressed is very dramatic. While the crack of the bullet is very clear when suppressed, it is not loud unless I shoot from under weather protection. Then the muzzle blast and crack are loud enough to require hearing protection.

Ranb

So you can still hear the muzzle blast is it just the sonic crack of the bullet that reflects back? My mini-14 was like that (there was still muzzle blast) but then its suppressor was small. This fully suppressed rifle has no muzzle blast at all - just the bullet crack and when fired in the open requires no hearing protection, even for sensitive ears like mine. My 303-25 is destined to get an over-barrel suppressor but with only three baffles. The first baffle is already on the rifle and will form the internal support of the suppressor (when it has its slots cut in it. It is now 50mm beyond the muzzle and will finish up 100mm beyond. It will be aluminium bodied. As an experiment, I will first fit just an expansion chamber over the barrel, meaning no extra baffles.

Jal - You send the bullet out subsonic - < 1049 fps - and understandably suffer the ballistic consequences. The Whisper rounds from JDJ are designed for that purpose. Small case, large caliber, heavy bullet which retains velocity out to amazing distance is the solution for suppression.

All of the noise bounces back when shooting under weather protection. It hurts my ears to shoot an ar-15 with a good silencer under weather protection. Mine as well as a gemtech.

No doubt about it, these guns are impossible to completely silence. I am convinced that anyone who says they are silent actually has significant hearing loss, especially in the higher frequencies. My hearing is tested every few years at the shipyard I work in, I can still hear as low as 0-15 decibels depending on the frequency.

While subsonic ammo is part of the solution due to the low powder charge and lack of sonic boom, after 200 yards it is headed down hill fast and you need to know range to target precisely to hit it.

Ranb

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Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey 303Guy, Quite a nice set of rifles.

"If" the Moderator(aka Silencer) segments(Pipe and Washers) were welded closed and the weld lines ground down and polished, and "if" it was long enough to extended all the way to the beginning of the Action so none of the barrel could be seen, it might fool some folks into thinking it was just a Bull Barrel.

They are available for 10/22's and mk II and mk III pistols, if you don't mind paying the transfer tax and your local LE doesn't have a problem with supressors.

Thanks Paul, I had no idea that somebody was already making them like that. The ones in your flicks look great.

How do they shoot?

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It hurts my ears to shoot an ar-15 with a good silencer under weather protection. Mine as well as a gemtech.

No doubt about it, these guns are impossible to completely silence.

This is true. The one I mentioned was being fired in the open. On the occasion when it was being fired at the range, I thought someone was shooting a 22rf. Of the two 308's fired with suppressors, one was no quieter than my 303-25 with that tiny device, while the other was quiet enough to hear the crack and echo of the bullet itself. None of these three rifles would be comfortable to me without earplugs but that 223, if fired in the open, could be. I have fired a few high velocity 22rf rounds through my silenced 22 and that is what that 223 sounded like. Remember that the sonic crack is only at a certain level of sound pressure and that is generated along the bullet path, which is away from the shooter. The faster the bullet, the shorter the duration of the crack, the lower the sound energy. But under a reflective roof or in trees or any reflective surface, well, ..... at 137 dB (or is it 147 dB?), it’s going to hurt!

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.... it might fool some folks into thinking it was just a Bull Barrel.

Hey - those 'integral, bull barrel' suppressors look pretty good! Thanks, Paul H. That's what my 303-25 will look like when I'm done with it! (The barrel part).

I went out shooting yesterday, with this buddy and his silenced 223. He fired three shots behind me, aiming over a ridge and directly away from me and I had no idea he was shooting! He fired it again inside the forest in a gully and this time I stood next to him without ear plugs and I can vouch that this thing is silent! It is quieter than a suppressed 22LR hi-velocity round!

303 Guy ! why are your scopes so high? No slam ; just curious. roger

Long neck!

It all started with my MkI* Lee Enfield. I had to bridge the action to clear the bolt shroud and bolt head. I liked it and soon realized it gave me better sight picture control and a longer 'point blank' range. Then came my Mini-14 and again, the mount was high and the stock short. Again I found the holding position with upright head gave me good sight picture control. I did the same thing to my Remington 512 Sportmaster 22lr and found myself becoming the silhouette club champ with it. I now make it a point of mounting my scopes high and as far back as recoil will allow. (The reason for wanting to reduce recoil - an upright face tends to collect scopes on the eyebrow). The trick is to hold ones chin against the stock.

Curious, this observation about the duration of the crack dependent on velocity. I hadn't considered that! What I have noticed however is the difference in "crack" between my .17 cals and .223's at similar velocities. It seems the .22 bullet displaces more air and generates a larger crack than the 17 Rem.

Would any of you slide-rule guys agree? Does that sound feasible?

Mark

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Originally posted by 303Guy:
I went out shooting yesterday, with this buddy and his silenced 223. He fired three shots behind me, aiming over a ridge and directly away from me and I had no idea he was shooting! He fired it again inside the forest in a gully and this time I stood next to him without ear plugs and I can vouch that this thing is silent! It is quieter than a suppressed 22LR hi-velocity round!

Do you have any idea what the amount of decibel reduction is for this silencer? Has it been shot over sound equipment yet?

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Do you have any idea what the amount of decibel reduction is for this silencer? Has it been shot over sound equipment yet?

It might have been but not to my knowledge. At a wild guess, I'd say muzzle blast is completely removed and the only source of sound is the bullet crack itself. Let me put it this way, when one hears a suppressed 308 or something one is not overly impressed - not until the suppressor is remove and the difference becomes apparent. But when this 223 is fired and you think, "What the .... !!!! ".
It wouldn't interrupt a conversation!

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Originally posted by 303Guy:

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Do you have any idea what the amount of decibel reduction is for this silencer? Has it been shot over sound equipment yet?

It might have been but not to my knowledge. At a wild guess, I'd say muzzle blast is completely removed and the only source of sound is the bullet crack itself. Let me put it this way, when one hears a suppressed 308 or something one is not overly impressed - not until the suppressor is remove and the difference becomes apparent. But when this 223 is fired and you think, "What the .... !!!! ".
It wouldn't interrupt a conversation!

When we try to explain sound differences between suppressed and non suppressed it is difficult to equate the noise reduction from one person to another. Everyone has different impressions of sound and until it can be quantified it is hard for others to appreciate the amount of reduction.

I have a HTG Suppressor on a 223 that has a measured noise reduction of 37 decibels. With a high velocity round the effects of suppression are sometimes disappointing due to the supersonic speed of the bullet which generates the crack and that sound usually can not be suppressed.

I have a .22LR suppressed rifle shooting subsonic rounds that it a giggler in that you hear the firing pin hit the primer and then the next sound is the bullet impact. With 44 decibels of noise reduction it is something to shoot.

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I have a .22LR suppressed rifle shooting subsonic rounds that it a giggler in that you hear the firing pin hit the primer and then the next sound is the bullet impact. With 44 decibels of noise reduction it is something to shoot.

The silenced 22lr is great to shoot. Now when you fire a hi-velocity round throught that rifle is what this 223 sounds like. I heard one like it before. Both rifles have short barrels, the first one was a mini-14. MV of the mini-14 was 3100fps. I'll see if I can find someone who can measure this one.

I fired my 'muzzle breaked' 303-25 (this is not your ordinary muzzle break) alongside a suppressed 308 in closed conditions in the bush - our muzzles were close together and the shots were close together - and both of us thought the two shots sounded identical. But another suppressed 308 was noticeably quieter than my 303-25. There is still undoubtedly muzzle blast escaping from both my 303-25 and the first 308 mentioned.