If you wanted a 22 caliber rifle to play with (wring out with various loads-particularly heavy 60+gr bullets) and shoot at paper out to 300 yards, (and maybe use for small game), which cartridge would you get?

I really like the idea of a small actioned rifle which favors the 223, but the 22-250 has more boiler room.

What do you all say?? Kudude

For the purposes you describe you dont need more boiler room nor 60 grain bullets for that matter---unless that paper you mentioned is vicious. 223 between those two and I'd look at .222.

I have a 22/250 that I've had since 1976 and really like for for numerous reasons. Sometimes a .223 makes more sense and if someone were asking for an opinion I'd probably steer them to a .223 because of the cheap ammo and brass, conservative powder consumption and inherent accuracy. But I would never buy one for me as long as I have my 22/250.
I must admit I have a .223 in Mini 14 but that is a whole nother animal than a bolt gun.

The 223 is an economical caliber, both in ammo costs and barrel life and will do fine at the ranges you plan to shoot. It will handle the heavy bullets given the right twist.

As far as "small game", have shot a lot of coyotes with my FP10, usually within 200 yds. The only coyote I ever shot at @ 310 yards w.the Savage was DRT, using 55 gr. Nos. BT @ 3300 fps.

The 22-250 will gain a little more range, but IMO not worth the difference in wear and tear on the bbl.

Regards,
hm

I've shot literally thousands of prairie dogs with the 225 Winchester, the 22-250, the 220 Swift and the 223 (and 222 as well).

Today the 223 is all I use in 224 caliber as I frankly didn't see the other larger capacity rounds being hardly any better.

The 223 Remington is a first class and economical round. It'll shoot right along side the 22-250!

Hey cool! I was perplexed by the same choice! Thanks guys!!

I second Snellstrom. I have a 22-250 that I am very pleased with & I would not talk anyone out of that caliber if they wanted one, but for someone that is undecided & with the criteria laid out by kudude I would suggest the 223.

One of my best friends has a 22-250 Ruger and I have a Model 70 Varminter in 223. He was peeved that he was only getting 3600 fps with a 55 gr bullet over my chrono and that I was getting 3300 fps with a 53 gr bullet. It also peeved him that he couldn't outdistance me in shooting groundhogs. Here's one point alot of you didn't mention. With the 223 you can watch the bullet impact the target because it doesn't have enough recoil to bounce the scope off target much. Couple that with whatelse was said here about the 223 being more economical, not as loud, and easier on barrels it's a no brainer. Do you really need a 454 Vette to drive to work? Get the 223.

quote:

Originally posted by MaxPayne: Do you really need a 454 Vette to drive to work?

No, but it's much more fun!

I already gave a short answer and will now give a longer one. I have a 22-250 and I do like it. I have shot a bunch of jackrabbits with it,but that was using cast bullets---velocity down in the 2000-2200 fps range. I also shoot same bullet and same velocity range in my .222's--they do well. I have a bolt .223 that refuses to shoot the cast bullet,but is a tack driver with jacketed bullets. This jackrabbit shooting is from a pickup at night and with the mild report of the cast bullet they work well. A full load jacketed bullet especially in the 22-250 would be way too much blast. For target shooting the low recoil and blast of the .222 or the .223 makes either more enjoyable to me than my 22-250. Darn I drool over those CZ rifles in .222 but cant justify buying another.

If you are looking at factory rifles, your choice may be decided on by twist of the barrel. Most 22/250 riles have a twist barrel that would favor the lighter bullets (1 in 14" SAAMI spec). The .223 with the heavier match bullets available has led to many barrels having a faster twist rate more suitable for the heavier bullets (1 in 9"). Look closely at the specs of the rifles that you are considering.

Aaron

quote:

The .223 with the heavier match bullets available has led to many barrels having a faster twist rate more suitable for the heavier bullets (1 in 9"). Look closely at the specs of the rifles that you are considering.

Aaron makes a good point here. The FP10 comes with a 1-9 twist and handles down to 55 gr. great (maybe lighter, but that's the lightest I've tried); shoots in the .2's @ 100 yds. out of the box.

Now, if you really want to get after the critters, you might try an AR. Knowing I couldn't improve much in the accuracy dept., but wanting the chance of getting a second shot when fortunate enough to call in a double on coyotes, picked up a Bushy Predator with a 1-8 twist. It shoots the same load the Savage likes into nice little .354" five shot groups and does it quickly if that is your desire. Another plus for the Predator is that it is 1 3/4# lighter than the FP10.

Regards,
hm

It's all personal preference, but I find my 22/250 is the varmint calibre that I like the least. It will get plenty of shooting this season though, 'cos then I can send it off in the new year to be turned into something a bit more interesting (probably a 6/250).

quote:

Darn I drool over those CZ rifles in .222 but cant justify buying another.

I own a CZ 527 in .222 but my .223 Stevens will shoot rings around it and do it with bullets up to 75 gr. Get a Stevens or Savage .223 and never look back. You won't have to. Today at the range my cousin was sighting in on metalic target bullet splatters and coming within an inch at 300 yards with his Ruger Varmint in .223. That was with Winchester white box Varmint loads w/ 45gr hproger

Bartsche,

I really like the looks of the Stevens; however, on the Savage web site they do not show a Stevens in 223. What model is it? Kudude

quote:

Originally posted by kudude:
Bartsche,

I really like the looks of the Stevens; however, on the Savage web site they do not show a Stevens in 223. What model is it? Kudude

Model 200 Stevens. I'll check the web site. roger

OK; I checked the web site and it is there under Steven Short actions. roger

Well, I have both, and more than a couple of rifles in each caliber that sure get a lot of range time... because they are fun and cheap to shoot...

I couldn't see being without either one...

as far as I am concerned, if you are looking at the Stevens... considering you can get one for about $279.00 around here...I'd get a rifle in each one, which would put you at a little over $550.00... which is real close to what you would be paying for a rifle in either caliber from most of the other manufacturers...

And I'd put the Stevens up against about any one of the other rifles in accuracy....

Then you get a little mechanical ability, and it is no problem to switch barrels to all sorts of other calibers...

there Roger Bartsche will think you are a gentleman and one of the most astute guys on the planet... and if you ever get to LA will take you out to this nifty little BAR and share some great conversation over some Great Burgers with ya...

223 all the way. Cheaper brass, less powder, less recoil, and you're more likely to get a fast twist barrel on a 223. You also have plenty of cheap milsurp for plinking.

If you're looking to shoot alot of ammo through it, you might want to consider the 223 ackley improved, as that will almost eliminate the need to trim brass.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
...If you're looking to shoot alot of ammo through it, you might want to consider the 223 ackley improved, as that will almost eliminate the need to trim brass.

I've never reloaded an AI cartridge; how does it eliminate (or reduce) the need to trim brass?

The sharp shoulder pretty much eliminates the brass flowing in the case. I've loaded several AI's and other sharp shouldered rounds, and it really does make a difference.

For hunting rounds I don't mind occasionally trimming brass, but when I'm shooting a hundred ore more rounds a week, not having to trim really saves time.

I've got a .223AI and it's possible that Paul the moderator is correct that the 40 degree shoulder stops the brass from flowing, but I am more inclined to think it is because the case walls are blown out almost straight, grip the chamber tighter and very much reduce the need for trimming.

It didn't cost me a penny more to have my smith use the AI reamer vs. the standard .223 Remington.

I have a CZ 527 in .223 that I absolutely love. it is as accurate as any that I have. I really like the "mini" mauser action scaled to the smaller cartridges.

Jim b.

Bartsche,

Thanks. I found it. Really nice looking rifle. I am going to see if I can get one. Someone said they had them for under $300 in their area. That sound like a deal. Thanks again. Kudude

Thanks Paul, that makes sense. Yet another reason to hot-rod my 22-250...

I'm going to be building a 22-250 ackley as well. I have a Rem takeoff barrel, and am debating whether I should put it on my wife's .308. I'm more interested in eliminating brass trimming than getting 220 swift velocities, but that isn't a bad thing

One of my VLD (very low drag) .224" bullet vehicles was a Savage 12BVSS. Single shot, all stainless, 26" fluted heavy barrel that began life as a 223. It had the desired 1:9" twist that would stabilize bullets as heavy as the 80 grain JLK/Sierra offerings. It got wrung out as a 223, then re-chambered to 22-243 Middlested, then finally to 22.284. That is when things got a ittle crazy. I got Savage to put a new barrel on it and chambered it for 22-378WBy-AI.
Anyway, I would suggest 1/2moa accuracy out of the 223 is easy to get in the SS. You could get the 223, experiment to your hearts content; and if you felt the "...need for speed...", you could re-chamber to 22-250 or bigger and still have the long heavy bullet capacity.
You will not believe the groups you can shoot with the accu-trigger adjusted down around 1.5lbs, or 2-3oz with an aftermarket trigger, and some match grade bullets.

Rich

I have a 22" ruger 22-250 and a 24" CZ varmint in 223, the 223 shoots the black hills 50's in the low 3300 range, I may find a load that will push a 50 to 3500 out of this gun but it aint happened yet, the ruger shoots the same 50 vmax at 3820 fps, that is 500 fps faster than the 223!!!! which is nothing to be sneezed at, it also means the difference of having to use holdover with the 223 on a 300 yd coyote and aiming dead on with the 22-250, This load is lazer flat, it gives you all the capibilities you need to make shots at much further ranges,

with that said if you don't have either I recommend the 223 first. its cheap, fun to shoot, and accurate

Ordered a Stevens in 223 today from Wally World. They had them for $279, with the tax, just under $300. That is a deal.

Thanks to all who posted. It was extremely informative. Kudude

PS: I saved enough over Plan B to buy one of their gun safes. All I have to do now is explain to my wife!!! K-d

quote:

Originally posted by kudude:
Ordered a Stevens in 223 today from Wally World. They had them for $279, with the tax, just under $300. That is a deal.

Wal-Mart usually sells the white box Winchester 45 gr varmint loads. Do yourself a favor and get some. I'm almost always shooting reloads but this stuff is special in every rifle I,ve seen use it . ( at least 5 ) roger

cummins cowboy:
For 3500 fps with a 50 gr. bullet try the following load it is right out of the Sierra manual:

25.8 gr. of VithaVouri N133
Win. Brass
Rem. 7 1/2M Primer
50 gr. Sierra BlitzKing
Velocity=3510 fps from my 24" Douglas 1 in 9 twist. Accuracy runs in the .5's to the .6's. This is listed as a max load so sneak up on it. There are no pressure issues in my rifle, a rebarreled 788 Rem. I have shot that load in temps to the upper 90's with no problem. According to the Sierra manual there are 3 other powders that will get you to 3500 fps. N130-N135- and H335. I tried H335 and it wouldn't do it in my rifle. Haven't tried N130 or N135. Pretty good coyote load.

The load I shoot the most with a 50 gr. Sierra BlitzKing is:
24.9 gr. of VithaVouri N133
Win. Brass
Rem. 7 1/2M Primer
50 gr. Sierra BlitzKing
Velocity=3357 fps from the same barrel as the load above. Accuracy is consistently in the high .2's to high .3's. I really like little bitty groups. Nice thing about it, both of the loads listed shoot to the same point of impact out of my rifle. So I keep some of both loaded up. The 3500 fps load for coyotes, the 3350 load for everything else.

PaPa 260

I think your best bet is the 223. Nothing wrong with the 22-250, it's a fine cartridge, but 223 perhaps more economical. Plenty of cheap surplus ammo available, and as already mentioned with the right twist rate in your barrel extremely versatile. Maybe try 1 in 9 or 1 in 8 twist rate.

FWIW, I have owned several of both and the majority of the time I go with the the 223 because I seldom shoot varmints much past 200 yards. Moreover, I can shoot strings of 10 rounds without the barrel getting hot, and if I am lazy I can shoot cheap ammo; it's actually cheaper to shoot than my 17s - when I roll my own. Lou

Think you made a good choice.
I was in a similar position a few years ago, and a friend steered me to a Savage .223 because of the cheap ammo, and the fact that for most ranges it will be very close to the .22-250. Still want a 22-250, but that is a want not a need.

I have only one 22-250 that never gets shot, but one of my .223s is getting used all the time.

My .223 load for single shots and bolt actions: 35 gr Vmax moly 15 gr Blue Dot 3,500 fps, I could get more velocity, but the barrel stays cool and clean, but will not cycle AR15s.

My .223 load for AR15s: 55 gr Vmax, 28 gr W748, 3530 fps

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:
I have only one 22-250 that never gets shot, but one of my .223s is getting used all the time.

My .223 load for single shots and bolt actions: 35 gr Vmax moly 15 gr Blue Dot 3,500 fps, I could get more velocity, but the barrel stays cool and clean, but will not cycle AR15s.

My .223 load for AR15s: 55 gr Vmax, 28 gr W748, 3530 fps

I wouldn't use that 28 gr W748 load, it's very max. Frankly I don't believe you're getting 3530 fps with a 55 gr bullet out of a 20 AR barrel. That's treading in 22-250 class velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by MaxPayne:


I wouldn't use that 28 gr W748 load, it's very max. Frankly I don't believe you're getting 3530 fps with a 55 gr bullet out of a 20 AR barrel. That's treading in 22-250 class velocity.

The .223 is SAAMI rated for 55,000 psi
The 22-250 is SAAMI rated for 65,000 psi

AR's Assclown's Von Misses calculations on case head limit:
.223 ... 86,427 psi
22-250 ... 76,577 psi

The chono data was taken with a Shooting Chrono
The extractor goove expansion data was take with Mitutoyo Digital Coolant-Proof calipers
The AR15 eject the brass too far, so I use the Ruger #1 with 26" barrel for work up loads that I measure the extractor groove expansion as I go. I then later check the load for cyling and sighting in the AR15 properly.
on 5-5-2006 at 3 p.m. in windy conditions at Issaquah range:

[25 rounds] 15 gr. Blue Dot 33 gr. Vmax moly 2.170", 3534 fps [26" barrel] no expansion, will not cycle AR15s.
[15 rounds] 22 gr. Re7, 55 gr. Vmax moly, 2.260", 3066 fps [20" barrel] no brass recovered
[3 rounds] 28 gr. W748, 55 gr. Vmax moly, 2.260" 3534 fps [26" barrel] no expansion, .9" 2 shot group at 50 yards
[3 rounds] 28.6 gr. H335, 55 gr. Vmax moly, 2.260" 3699 fps [26" barrel] .000 to .004" expansion, .2" 2 shot group at 50 yards
[3 rounds] 21.5 gr. W296, 55 gr. Vmax moly, 2.260", 3580 fps [26" barrel] .010 to .030" expansion and jammed Ruger #1, rim ripped off


If I plug .223, 28 gr W748 55 gr Vmax moly, 26" into Quickload, it says "61,076 psi 3,511 fps"

If I plug .223, 28.6 gr H335 55 gr Vmax moly, 26" into Quickload, it says, 71,461 psi 3,674 fps


I seem to be getting good corelation of brass extractor groove expansion and chrono data to Quickload prediction.

Yeah impressive looking figures, but now we see it's not a bone stock AR15 with 20 inch barrel and Nato chamber, which were not designed for the pressure that load is developing.

I don't find AR15/M16's to throw brass that far and they do throw to a consistant little pile. If you're doing testing where you must retrieve the brass, how is it you were shooting where you couldn't find it? You want to talk about brass slinging try talk HK or Valmet. I believe even a SKS throws brass further then an AR.

One thing about AR's is the gasport is made alittle on the large side to gaurantee reliable functioning. What that means is that it uneccessarily slams the action harder then it should be. One reason why competitive shooter David Tubbs came up with the weight for the carrier was to add weight to slow down the lock time of the bolt. Alot of AR15 owners will notice that primers on normal safe loads look very flattened to the point that it appears to be very high pressure, but upon using Tubbs device the primer then show normal pressure rounded corners.

Like I said, if I was an AR15 owner/shooter here I would not use your 28 gr W748 with any 55 gr bullet.

The maze of benches at Issaquah would be a good place to hide Easter eggs.

I have overcome the brass recovery problem in semi auto pistols by wrapping a towel around the gun.

Maybe I could do that with AR15s at Issaquah.


Here is one from that day I did recover, becuase it would not cycle the action:
Colt SP1 AR-15, 20" barrel, 13x40x40 Leupold 3.75" above bore, 19.5" barrel
33 gr. Vmax moly [.495" long plastic tipped bullet], 18 gr. Blue Dot, chamfered mouths, .245" neck bushing, 2.170"
.7" 3 shot at 50 yards
1.7" 6 shot at 100 yards



18 gr Blue Dot is not enough gas to cycle the action, but more pressure than the brass wants.
So I can't shoot Blue Dot in the AR15s.

That 18 gr load does 4,097 fps [no extractor groove growth ]to 4,127 fps [.010" extractor groove growth] in the 26" Ruger #1. So that load can not be used in the Ruger #1, but the 15 gr 3500 fps load can, and it is a winner for single shots.

I have ran 28 grains of W 748 or BLC 2 powder, which I maintain is the exact same powder, with 55 grain bullets in bolt actions and they do just fine...

In fact, the Speer 13 manual lists, I believe, 27 or 28 grains of W 748.... I will have to double check that....

But even 30 grains with 55 grain bullets in bolt guns have not been any problem...

and that has been in Federal, Winchester, Remington, Lake City and WCC cases....

primer I normally use is Winchester Small rifle or Remington 7 1/2 primers...


29 grains of W 748 with a 55 grain SP Rem Bulk really tightened up the groups in a 223 barrel that was getting pretty worn at the throat...