I've been working just a little with a couple of .25-20's and have found that velocities are more variable than I would like with the powders I've tried.

Am open to suggestions. Powders I have but have not yet tried which may be suitable include IMR 4227, 2400, AA2200, and WW 296. I have 60 and 86 grain jacket bullets and 86 grain Lead Gas Check bullets on hand.

Give Hodgdon a call and inquire about using Lilgun. As you know, it works very well in the hornet and the magnum handguns. I suspect Lilgun would work very well in the small .25-20 case.

AA1680 and the 60 grn horn seem to be made for each other. I'm only just starting to play with my little martini cadet 25-20 but that combo is a keeper.

AA 5744 might work good in a .25-20

Stonecreek: I have been working with the 25-20 as well, a Model 23 Savage I recently acquired in about 98%condition, although it had a slight chamber problem, which I have corrected. Using the powders you mentioned,same results. IMR4198, has shown some promise. 1680 was suggested, I like that in 22 Hornet, but I see no published data by Accurate. Theback40, do you have some points to start?

As to the chamber I spoke of earlier: it seems it had a couple pretty severe stratches right on the shoulder, that would grab the case upon extraction. I reamed the shoulder forward, .200 and that solved my problem. After fireforming, the formed cartridge looked very familiar. As I compared it to a 218 Bee, it was about the exact twin. Looks like I now have a 25 Bee,LOL!!

During fireforming the 50 yd groups were 1.5" or so. I hope it all works itself out once I can shoot some loaded and formed cases.

Another interesting thing we reloaders can talk about.

Jerry

4227 and 2400 both work really well in the 25-20.

I've been loading for a M-92 Winchester in .25-20 for thirty years......and only the 60 grain bullet as the 86 grain bullet requires a change of front sight on my M-92

I used 2400 with good results but had trouble getting it and went to H-4227

IMR-4227 is another good option as is H-110, and AA-1680

Loading data available in Hornady manual for the 60 grainer.

Sorry....No experience with the 86s!

BTW....my .25-20 made the trip to Africa with me and is a sweet rifle for Duiker and other game of that size.

I have been told that AA5744 and IMR 4227 are very similar powders. True or Not???

I checked with Hodgdon today, Dave told me that they have not worked up any loads with Lil Gun.

Vapo, I'll try 2400.

Jerry

Jerry,
out of Accurate reloading book No 1
AA1680 12.6 grns
to max of 14 grns for 25,800 cup my rifle with that max load does 2300 fps
SAAMI max is 28,000 cup

Guys, when you post load data be sure to put ALL the information in that post - like bullet weight for example. Otherwise readers may make a mistake....

I wrote a load article for Handloader over 15 years ago using a then-new Marlin M1894. With bullets of 60, 75 and 86 grains I found then that my most accurate loads (near-moa) with the lowest ES were usually with AA-7 and H-110. AA-5744 was good with 75-grain bullets, no so good with 60s. 2400 and IMR-4227 were mediocre at best. I got spotty results with AA-1680, IMR-4198 and W-680 too. Most loads were near the upper limit pressure-wise.

OTOH Speer #14 states that they had great results with AA-1680 and IMR-4198. Go figure, it just depends on the individual rifle.



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TX Nimrod: If I recall, H-110 and WW 296 are the same spec powders. I have some WW 296 on hand and have been wondering if it might be a useful powder in the 25-20.

Jerry Eden: My chamber seems rough in the neck area (Remington Model 25), occasionally causing sticky extraction even though pressures are reasonably mild. I'm going to polish the neck area to see if that will slick up the extraction a bit. I also have a Savage 23 that, unlike yours, has been chopped and altered quite a bit. I haven't done much work with it.

Went to the range this morning, and shot my "reformed" 25-20. Results were very poor with IMR4227, and I won't try that again. I did have a little success with IMR4198 as a couple of the groups were at an inch @50yds. Here's what I shot today 86 Graim Remington Bullet/13IMR4198, group was 1.030. 13 Grains IMR 4198 with the 75 grain bullet gave me a .930 group. I didn't run the chronograph today, as I was not particularly interested in how fast I was shooting, just groups. Another side light, it appears the loads aren't hot enough to seal the chamber, as the shoulders are a little black. I'll keep working up.

Jerry

quote:

a couple of the groups were at an inch @50yds.

I must admit that I've never shot my M-92 for groups.....just to make sure it would hit a pop can at that distance and it was good enough for chasing jack rabbits across the corn stalks...

In all sincerity.....I'd wager that my gun wouldn't shoot that good.....nor does it have to.....the .25-20 (especially with the 86 grain loads isn't much more than a 75 yards cartridge and with the 60s it probably isn't good for much more than 100 yards.

Personally, I'd say you're getting all you're going to get.

Vapo: you might be right. I do have a 32-20 in the same rifle, that will put three in one hole @50 yds, actually .600 group 3 shots, so I guess that is going to muddy the waters, until I run out of powders, etc.

Jerry

Accuracy depends entirely on the rifle, not the cartridge. I used my M1894 to head shoot grouse and that it did with aplomb. Sure, few shots were over 20 yards, but my favorite load is still the Speer 75FN and 6.0 grains of AA-7. Velocity is 1481 fps, plenty for the use, and accuracy is a little less that 1-1/2 moa.

I have a BF handgun chambered in .25-20 and it shoots 1/2 moa with Sierra 75SPs. No flys on the cartridge.



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TXNimrod:

I am not familiar with AA-7. What's it close too? Also your load seems a little tame, but if it'd shoot nice groups, I'd use it. So far, my best results have been with IMR4198. Loaded a few with WW680 this evening, and I would also like to try H110. We'll see how this all progresses.

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by TX Nimrod:
I have a BF handgun chambered in .25-20 and it shoots 1/2 moa with Sierra 75SPs. No flys on the cartridge.



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Can you tell us more about this?.....I'd sure like a Viquero in .25-20!

AA-7 is generally a bit slower than BlueDot. For a grouse/rabbit gun, velocity is not important, accuracy is. The Speer bullet is close to a true wadcutter with a large meplat. It kills very well without a lot of velocity and without damaging much meat - expansion is not necessary. Sped up with H-110 it expands and kills coyote/javelina well.

My BF is a single shot falling block handgun by EA Brown. I use it mostly for NRA Hunters Pistol, where its outstanding trigger makes shooting offhand almost easy (well, almost!).



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Went to the range again this morning, and the best group today was .758 @50yds. 13 grs IMR4198 and a 75gr FP. Fired out of standard 25-20 cases. Tried WW680, but I was freezing, and I don't believe that helped my trigger squeeze,so I'll try that again. I have also loaded some with H110, and I'll let you all know how that goes. If I can get the 4198 to repeat or keep the groups @1", I believe I'll be happy with that. Next time, if possible I'll run the cronograph.

Jerry

4227 works well for me with the 75gr. Just tried some LilGun and it shot very well too.

Been shooting the Lyman 257420GC cast bullet with 4198 for over 25 years now. Started using a custom mold for a 80 gr. bullet a few years ago with the same powder. Both do real well, might try lilgun some time but don't really see the need.

Stonecreek:

I didn't mean to hijack your thread! Just happened to be at the same time, I got this 25-20 project going. H110, showed some promise at the range Saturday, with several groups a little under 1". I got frustrated as I think the scope I had on the rifle, was jumpin around, so I changed it to a Leupold M8 4X. Another problem I ran into, my seating die had to be readjusted up a bit, as it was moving the "new" shoulder back down. All that has been solved now, so I hope I have better results next time. Soon as I get something, or not, that's better than I have now, I'll post all the info and data.

Jerry

Not a hijacking at all, your info is very relavent. I may try some WW296 which is the same spec powder as 110 and see what results I get. I came across several boxes of old Winchester 86 grain bullets at a gun show a few weeks ago (like the ones in the factory loads), but haven't tried them yet to see how they do. If I could find a good "minute of turkey" load I'd love to take a gobbler this spring with my old Remington Model 25.

I have a Wn. M53 takedown in which I have tried 60 gr. Hdy, 75 gr. cast, 75 gr. Speer, and 86 gr. Rem. bullets. with W296, H110, WC820, W680 and some others. The gun isn't a super shooter, 1.5"-2.5"@50y but one thing I have noticed is that some of the best groups have been with loads using standard small pistol primers, even with the slow ball powders. Some of the worst have been with Rem 7-1/2 and Mag. small pistol primers.
Something that might be worth investigating.
C.G.B.

Stonecreek: I am sure you can get minute of turkey, let us know how you make out.

After making all the adjustments and changes I mentioned in a previous post, I shot my 25 again yesterday. H 110 showed a couple very good 5 shot groups under 1", And all the groups were much better than I had before, must have been the scope. Loads ran from 1550fps to 1850 fps, with the 75 grain bullet, all with what I would consider acceptable accuracy.

I am going to try to choose a load between IMR4198 and H110. Let you know more results as they come about.

Jerry

Jerry: I'd be interested in hearing more about that .32=20 load, as I just obtained a Model 53 in that caliber with very good bore.

Bill:
My load is 13IMR4227/100 Grain Hornady HP. Nice load out of my Model 23 Savage. Goodluck with your Model 53.

Jerry

Thanks Jerry. If I hadn't found this M 53, a friend has been torturing me with a Savage like yours.

While this thread is active I'll merely ask if anyone has any 60 grain hollow points (.257 Diameter) from Winchester.....they were called OPE ....or open point expanding.

I have a few but look for more all the time and they are fairly rare.

Winchester also used that bullet to load the .256 Win Mag!

I had some .25-20 cartridges loaded with them years ago and did not like them for hunting small game. Then recently I read the comments in COTW and nodded knowingly.

"The 60 grain high velocity load achieves its maximum expansion at a range of between 50 and 70 yards. Beyond that, good bullet placement is essential for quick kills. At ranges out to 50 yards, bullet expansion will ruin most of the edible meat on small game."


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quote:

"The 60 grain high velocity load achieves its maximum expansion at a range of between 50 and 70 yards. Beyond that, good bullet placement is essential for quick kills. At ranges out to 50 yards, bullet expansion will ruin most of the edible meat on small game."

This much I can attest to:
1. The 60 Grain HP will ruin a squirrel or a cottontail but is hell on foxes and jackrabbits where we're not usually interested in meat.

2. It is a fine load for small animals such as did dik, Duiker, steenbok and members of the tiny ten.

It'll kill coyotes within 100 yards and has been used successfully on whitetails.....but I wouldn't recommend it for that use today.

It will also force one to find a higher front sight on one's M-92 as it shoots quite a bit higher at even 50 yards!

As I said earlier, IMR4198 and H-110 gave me the best performance in my Model 23B Savage. This time a 5/8" 5 shot group/H-110/1850fps.

I have to tell this story about me and the Savages. A number of years ago, while I was living in California, one of my clients Dad, passed away. The Dad had a modest gun collection and the son knew I was a gunner, and offered to sell them. A friend of mine heard about this and asked me to buy them for him, which I did. One of the guns was a very nice 23D Savage Deluxe,(22 Hornet) which my friend then gave me as a commission. That started it. I then acquired the 32-20C, then the 25-20B, then a Model 23AA in 22LR, and now a Model 19 NRA. They all shoot pretty good, and I am satisfied with them all.

Jerry

Required reading, Ken Waters "Pet Loads",big red book, 25-20 Win page 129 and 32-20 Win page 757.

I really like my S&W "K" frame 25/20 revolver for small game.





I deliberately keep my velocities under 1400 so it isn't so destructive on small game and the best bullet i've found are a SWC bullet i designed and swage for that purpose.



I needed a shorter OAL to fit in the cylinder, and that's how i got around it.

DM

DM: I've often thought a K frame in .25-20 would be the nuts as a small game hunting handgun. Who did the work on yours?

That K-frame looks like fun. I'm assuming that you start with something like a M-17 in .22 LR and regroove the barrel then rechamber the cylinder?

You cannot start with a M-17, as the cylinder is too short for the 25/20. You have to start with something like a 38spl... rebbl it, and use a LR cylinder that was ment for the 52 jet.

The work on mine was done by master pistol smith, Vern Ewer.

DM

quote:

Originally posted by DM:
You cannot start with a M-17, as the cylinder is too short for the 25/20. You have to start with something like a 38spl... rebbl it, and use a LR cylinder that was ment for the 52 jet.

The work on mine was done by master pistol smith, Vern Ewer.

DM

I've never done this but would guess that one could use any .357 Mag or larger cartridge.....rebarrel and press fit plugs into the cylinder and rechamber the pressed plugs to almost anything you choose.....possibly .22 Hornet or .218 Bee

Remember that the forward shoulder of some cartridges will push the base of the cartridge back hard against the rear of the revolver and possibly lock up the cylinder.....so it might be wise to use a cartridge that has a slight forward shoulder such as the .25-20 has.