I'm considering a new small game rifle. This will be used mainly for capercaillie (large, - 8 pounds, relative of the grouse) and sundry other smaller birds and game. Ranges will be short, max 150 yards, and the cartridge I've chosen is the 22 Hornet which is perfect for the application; game size, hunting area etc.

I could of course buy a bolt-action but I'm leaning towards a Ruger No 1. Always wanted one of those

Do any of you have any experience with the 22 Hornet in the Ruger No 1?

The Ruger #1 is a excellent example of a very nice rifle. You will enjoy the ownership. Haven't had one in the Hornet, the calibers I have had were nice. My best one is a .25-06 in the varmint model. Wish you luck!

Are you going to handload or shoot factory loads? I am not so sure that the Hornet is as accurate as other choices and in particular Ruger's efforts with that cartridge.

The Hornets that I have had were not accurate at all but I did not know what at least one person does on this forum when I owned them. I read a topic here, I think on this forum, on how to handload the Hornet and I was impressed.

I would never buy a Hornet from what I know. I would buy another .22CF and load it light with 4759 as I do now.

As much as I love the idea of a Hornet, my experiences with them have not been good. That includes a Ruger No. 3 that I could not get to shoot well regardless of my loading and tinkering efforts. I've heard that the Anschutz versions shoot quite well, so it could be that I never had a really decent rifle in the caliber.

A more simple solution is a .221 Fireball or even a .222 Remington downloaded. Much more versatile, IMO. I really love my little Cooper in .222 Remington. Thankfully, Cooper doesn't make the Hornet length action in a left-hand version, or I might have weakened.

Wachtel - I have not owned a Ruger in Hornet but have read MANY posts by members here who have and most complain of the accuracy, both of this cartridge and with your choice of rifles. The only Ruger rifles I've found very accurate are the heavy bbl varmit series.

My hornet was actually a K-Hornet and built up on a Winchester M-43. Delightful rifle and a joy to hunt with...but never terribly accurate.

Unless loaded with an FMJ or very hard cast bullet, they will likely blow your grouse to pieces. All of the hotrod .22 bores like to explode on impact.

Pecos45,

I would of course use a FMJ for birds and a heavier, "non-varmint" soft-point for other game. Today I use FMJ:s in my 6,5x55 but you have to be very careful with the direction your shooting in since shots are often at birds in trees and the "danger zone" when firing a larger calibre can be a couple of miles.

I would imagine the Hornet, with speeds similar to the 6,5:s, and lighter bullets to be less destructive. Certainly a smaller problem with dangerous shots because of the shorter range.

I read a lot of threads on this forum before posting and all those concerning bad accuracy and Rugers seemed to be about their bolt-actions. The only reference I saw to a No 1 was positive. This is why I posted on the subject myself.

My alternative is a CZ in the same caliber.

Hey Wachtel, There are just enough half way accurate Hornets in the world to keep people guessing they can get a fairly accurate one. Overall though, chances are you will be disappointed.

I've had various Hornets for 35 years and finally got them out of my blood. Also had one of the old M43 Winchesters that Pecos mentioned. Mine was a regular Hornet, which was made back when the barrel used 0.223" bullets instead of the current 0.224" size. Just as Pecos said, it was a beautiful, small, handy rifle to carry.

"But", concerning Hornets in general, you can get half way decent accuracy one day and so-so accuracy the next with the exact same loads. So, at least you have been warned.

If you go forward with the Hornet project, be sure to try Hodgdon's Lil'Gun powder and Small Pistol primers with the various 40-50gr bullets. Loading backward was never accurate in any of my Hornets even at 25yds.

Swapped my last one for a 20" S&S 223Rem M7 and could not be happier. Just as Don and JB mentioned, if you want Hornet Velocity loads, it is a simple matter to just down-load it. For example, 1x.xgr of 2400 pushing a 45gr bullet in a 223Rem case matches the Hornet velocity exactly. There is a major side benefit of this "down-loaded 223Rem(Hornet)" because the excellent accuracy remains the same, shot after shot, day to day, week to week.

...

For what it is worth, after all those years of wrestling with lots of Hornets, I believe the biggest problem is getting a close match between the chamber, cases and dies. The Hornet case just does not lend itself to the same accuracy potential that the family of cases based on the 222Rem will provide.

Find a friend that has a Hornet and measure the "Web Expansion" on a factory case. Calculate the Percentage change from the case prior to firing and you will see part of the accuracy problem. Do the same thing with a 223Rem, or any case from the 222Rem family and you will see that it is considerably less.

Best of luck to you with which ever caliber you choose.

I agree with the 221 or 222 downloaded. I have had a T/C 10" 22 Hornet and a Kimber Model 82. They were good, but not consistent. Three or four shots would cluster, then one would expand the group almost every time. Accuracy was only fair in my opinion. Case life is short, maybe 6-8 reloadings before they split.

As for the Ruger No.1, I have alway loved the look and feel of them, but after having 3 of them, a 223, a 22-250 varminter and a 6mm Rem varminter, I will never own one again. None of them ever gave me the accuracy I was looking for. I tried most of the recommended accurizing tips on them and had no success. It is a shame as they are so appealing.

For small caliber shooting the .222 remington is the most accurate cartridge next to the 6MM PPC in the world. The .222 is easy to reload for and will shoot most bullets with many different kinds of powders. Have one now that shoots ragged holes at a 100 yards with a 52 grain match bullet. Use a 24X scope. Good Luck A good barrel makes the difference if you find one keep it. Have some great rifles out there that I wish I had back.

Thanks for all the input!

This idea seems to be too much of a gamble for me since we're restricted to four rifles, so each one must be practical for me. I'll have to browse a bit more before making a purchase.

Maybe a CZ 527 in 222 Rem or even a CZ 452 in 22 WM?

Watchel - I wasn't aware of your rifle limitations. If I could have only 4 rifles, a hornet would not be one of them. It's a delightful little cartridge but as has been suggested there are far more accurate and versatile .224 caliber cartridges available. Certainly the easiest would be a 223. Any accuracy edge the 222 might have over a 223 is very small and only in the benchrest world as 223s in good bolt actions are extremely accurate in their own right. And a 223 is considerably more powerful. I can't believe you would ever regret a 223.

Pecos45,

A .223 is "considerably" more powerful? I would suggest that the difference is not that dramatic. The primary consideration when choosing between these two chamberings - both of which are fine - would be the type of hunting and the projectile most likely to be used. Over 50 grains, go .223. 50 or less, then .222 gets the vote. The muzzle energy differences really are not that great!

(IMHO)!

Patrick

[ 11-03-2002, 20:36: Message edited by: Patrick_D ]

Wachtel,

Either caliber (.222 or .223) in the 527 would do just fine. The CZ's have an good reputation for accuracy and are certainly a bargain. The ones I have seen have been pretty nice. If restricted to four rifles, I would not choose the .22 Magnum. Either of the two centerfires can substitute for the .22 Magnum with proper loads.

I'm not sure what the twist rate for the CZ in .223 would be, but if a bit faster than the standard 1 in 14" of the .222 Remington, could have the potential to shoot a heavier bullet well.

The Ruger single-shots are as sirens calling from the rocks. IMO, Beware

I am a .222 fan

Regards,
JB

The Hornet not accurate? Whatchoo sayin', Willis???

I've said it before and I'll say it again -- with handloads my old Savage 340 Hornet consistently (i.e. all the time) shoots under 1 MOA -- my average is about 0.8". It's bedded and floated, but apart from that ............

I agree though -- after 150 yards the little fella's running out of puff.

We were talking about Ruger's at the rifle club yesterday. There was common agreement that they were "purty-looking" but not particularly accurate -- except the No. 1, which had the potential to be very accurate with some work.

I love my .223 (Savage 10FP) and it's very accurate out of the box -- but that little Hornet's got under my skin.

There's no way I'll get rid of it.

PS: To my way of thinking, using deliberately reduced loads is a bit like buying a V8 -- and then pulling two sparkplug leads off the engine!

Bruce

[ 11-04-2002, 10:19: Message edited by: BIWOZ ]

As far as reduced centerfire loads are concerned, I have used them quite a bit for edible small game when hunting big game. Not much left of a grouse or gray squirrel when hit with a high velocity centerfire.

Back in the days when turkey hunting with rifles was legal in South Carolina, a reduced load using SR4759 was almost a requirement for bagging a bird without meat damage.

[ 01-04-2003, 06:33: Message edited by: JB in SC ]

Got to agree with BIWOZ, I have got a BRNO Hornet and it is deadly. As mentioned earlier load it up with 13 grains of Lil' Gun and a 40gr ballistic tipped Hornady or Nosler and you will not be dissapointed.

I think if I intended shooting birds with it I would try 11 grains of Reloader 7 and a Hornady "Hornet" 45 grain bullet, this would put it somewhere above the .22 magnum range, enough for 100 / 150 yards. My gun is an old one but I hear good things about the new CZ Hornets, and bad things about Rugers.

Hope this helps

John

The big problem with the Hornet seems to be that most chambers are grossly large and most Hornet brass is likewise undersized. Both depend on the rim to do the headspacing, which it will, sort of.

If you really like the Hornet ballistics (which are perfect for your intended uses), I would suggest that you have the barrel of the Number 1 BOTH set back and rechambered to .22 K-Hornet with mimimum dimensions. I can't imagine NOT getting excellent accuracy from this combination.

On the other hand, if you are going to that trouble, the .218 Bee or even the .221 Fireball, as suggested by an earlier poster, will give you superior brass to work with.

Gentlemen - If memory serves me correctly, somewhere I read a commentary by P. O. Ackley himself where he addressed the accuracy issue of the .22 Hornet and he felt that in the right gun, properly built, etc, the Hornet was CAPABLE of superb accuracy. And I think this is where the rub always comes in. Few gun makers have ever put their best effort into the little hornet...regardless what a great little guy this cartridge is. (To shoot it is to love it)

I suggest the 223 for reasons of PRACTICALITY. Anytime YOU can use a cartridge based on a military case, you are a quantum leap ahead of the game in many respects. First off, the design and ballistics are usually good to start with. And best of all there is usually GOBS of cheap components (brass, powder, bullets) available. Also military cases are built to be tough so they can handle the automatic weapons they will be fired in.

So, while there are a LOT of hot .22 caliber cartridges out there that I love...bottom line is the .223 is always going to be far and away the most practical and most bang for your buck. IMHO.

[ 11-05-2002, 21:13: Message edited by: Pecos45 ]

Well, this looks like a good place for my first post.

I have been shopping for a centerfire .22 for quite a while and am becoming more aware of the magnitude of this decision process every day.

I started here because I stumbled across a used Kimer of Oregon m82 in factory original K-Hornet and couldn't pass it up. I sat through our wunnerful 10-day "cooling off" period (went to the range at Laguna seca to sight in my 7mm Rem. mag rather than spread carnage with the K-Hornet)and brought it home yesterday. I just love the workmanship!

Now, back to this post.

I have also looked at the CZ 527s and really like the American & Varmint. While I was looking, I called CZ to see if they would tell me what the twist was for their .223s; they said that they use 1 in 12 but, due to popular demand, had just changed to a 1 in 9 for the Varmint only. Other than measuring with a cleaning rod & snug patch, check the long number on the label on the end of the box. The 1 in 12 twist number will start with 52746409, the 1 in 9 twist will start with 52746410.

Now, if anyone out there has any recommendations on loading dies and/or scope mounts for my new m82, I'd be happy to hear from you.

quote:

---

Originally posted by JB in SC:
Wachtel,

Either caliber (.222 or .223) in the 527 would do just fine. The CZ's have an good reputation for accuracy and are certainly a bargain. The ones I have seen have been pretty nice. If restricted to four rifles, I would not choose the .22 Magnum. Either of the two centerfires can substitute for the .22 Magnum with proper loads.

I'm not sure what the twist rate for the CZ in .223 would be, but if a bit faster than the standard 1 in 14" of the .222 Remington, could have the potential to shoot a heavier bullet well.

The Ruger single-shots are as sirens calling from the rocks. IMO, Beware

I am a .222 fan

Regards,
JB

---

[ 12-23-2002, 04:58: Message edited by: NutBuster ]

Wachtel,

Can't comment on the Khornet but regarding 222 vs 223 you'd be nuts not to go for the 222 in Sweden. I myself have a 222 in a S491 Sako and it is astonishing even for a rank amateur such as me. Best shot to date is a 275yd head shot on a rabbit - factory rifle merely glass bedded.

Vihtavuori have VVN110 data that is in the realm of the Khornet.

NutBuster,

As far as rings/mounts, try Warne. They manufacture the rings that will mount directly on the dovetail (usually a special width) on older Kimbers. A LH factory K-Hornet is a very nice find, the rifle was probably built in the early to mid 80's.

Steve Timms (Varmint Hunter magazine) may be of help on more specific information on Kimber of Oregon rifles.

Once cases are fireformed, I would neck size only. I use Wilson hand dies (in .222) and have been very happy with the results.

Regards,
JB

[ 12-24-2002, 22:04: Message edited by: JB in SC ]

I've had the CZ 527 for over a year now. My favorite gun. I researched extensively. I wanted a .22 mag for a longer range gopher getter but because I enjoy reloading, chose the hornet. No regrets. Under an inch at 100 easily with the 3 different bullets I've tried. You can shoot this caliber all day. Barrel doesn't heat up. Barely any kick, fairly quiet. Ripped an artic ground squirrel in half at 100 yds. Grouse heads disappear!

I chose the CZ due to accuracy criticisms of the Rugers both single shot and bolts in Hornet. I have read good things about the browning micro medallion but not as much as the CZ.

The down side to the CZ is bullets are magazine limited. I recently ordered some James Calhoon bullets to try (they come highly recommended for the hornet) and he told me how to modify the mag for longer bullets. Didn't sound too difficult at all. His bullets will fit the mag as is though.

I took the advice of the link below on dies. The Lee collet neck sizer and the Forster ultra micrometer bullet seater. Hodgdon Lil'gun is probably the best powder going. That's all I've used. I do alot of case prep. Flash hole deburr, uniform primer pockets, trim all to same length even if new brass is under max. The Calhoon bullets are available in 30, 37, 42 which are the best weights for the hornet. 30 and 37 are most popular.

The trigger on the CZ is fantastic. Fully adjustable with a set feature to bring it to ounces. Hopefully you can get to the site below, I found it helpful.

"sting 'em with a hornet"

Ian

http://www.homepages.ihug.com.au/~bkhornet/22hornet.htm

Thanks JB, I'll take a look for something in Warne. By the way, this is (only?) a right-hand m82. I have toyed with getting a left-hand rifle but my right eye is dominant so I'll stick with right hand for now.

By the way, this rifle didn't have any paperwork with it so, if anyone out there can provide me with a copy (xerox, PDF, whatever) of an owner's manual, D&A, tuning, or anything else for this, I'd be really gratefull. (I'm a mechanic and love poring over technical manuals while I take stuff apart! )

I once owned a Ruger 77RH, and actually got decent accuracy out of it.....but it was a masochistic process.

HUGE radial clearance in the chamber......you could almost call the fired Hornet cases from the Ruger a "22 Hornet Ruger Improved". Once the "fire-forming" process was complete, I tried a number of sizing regimens, all of which were uniformly unsuccessful......short case life, 2.5-3.0 MOA, yadda yadda.

Finally, I tried neck sizing about .300" deep, hoping that method would sort of center the bullet in the chamber/throat/bore origin. I also seated the bullets (3 or 4 different 40 grainers) about .010" off the rifling origin. This yielded fruit, and all the powder/bullet combinations would hold 1.5 MOA, some getting sub-MOA.....but not consistently.

It was at that time I sold the rifle, entered and completed therapy, and replaced the Hornet with a Ruger 77 Compact in 223. This little rifle is a delight, shooting in the .7's and .8's with just about everything I've tried in it--as long as the barrel doesn't get too hot.

The 12th Step in the Hornet Addiction Recovery Program is to dispose of the dies in that caliber.

Deputy Al

NutBuster,

Don't know where I dreamed up the LH Kimber, I suppose that since I'm a southpaw I think everyone should be. Doesn't really matter, a Kimber factory chambered in K-Hornet is still a nice find. I've owned several Kimbers myself and prefer the Oregon rifles.

The Kimber forum is now defunct, but would have been a start.

Regards,
JB

I've owned a few Hornets, including a Kimber M82, M82 heavy barrel and a M82 factory re-chambered to the K-Hornet. Throw in a couple of T/C Contender barrels as well, a 10" and a 21" carbine.

With that said I'll add another little reloading trick that may or may not work. Try seating the bullets in firm contact with the lands. Not shoved in hard so you pull the bullets if you extract the loaded round, just "firm" contact. This does raise pressures so you have to adjust your powder charge but it definitely improved accuracy in a couple of rifles. I'm thinking it compensated for the sloppy chamber fit by helping to center the bullet in the bore.

Another little tidbit from a "used to be" Hornet fan. Get a .221 Fireball. It's what the Hornet should have been all along.

I have a Ruger #1 B in 22 Hornet and would not trade it for anything. Accuracy, consistant 5/8" groups most in the 1/2" range. Before I even shot the gun 4 patches 50 strokes each with JB Bore Paste to smooth out the bore. Moyer trigger set at 1lb, bed the forend (No wood contacting the barrel), had the stock shortened 3/4" to fit me better, Leupold 4.5 x 14 set in Leupold Extension Rings. WW brass neck turned, 13-14 gr of Lil Gun with a moly coated 40gr Vmax, WSP primers and you will get 3100-3200 fps out of the 26" barrel. I could not not get any groups under 1 1/2" with any factory ammuntion tried.

The older #1B's had the rib mount set to contact the frame. This led to a lot of inconsistancy. The newer models have a gap that does not put any stress on the rib.

As for distance. I had many people tell me that this was a 150 yard rifle. Well let me tell you from experiance it will do minute of ground hog out to 300 yards. They just sort of fall over at that distance but they are still dead. 150 yards and under that little VMAX is very destructive.

IHMSA53393,

I think most of us that have "fooled" with the Hornet get disgusted, me included. No doubt the introduction of Lil Gun and the new "plastic tipped" bullets have done much to enhance the Hornet out to ranges that were thought "too far for a Hornet".

A lot of us wandered around looking for that elusive MOA (consistently) Hornet, after three I gave up. I just bought a .222 Remington that shoots .25" groups with monotonous regularity and needless to say I am quite pleased.

Anyway, I am glad to hear of successes with the cartridge, it is a sweet little round. Sounds like you have a real shooter.

Regards,
JB

[ 12-29-2002, 04:00: Message edited by: JB in SC ]

I've owned a #1 and a #3, both capable of 1/2 MOA with proper loads, and a bit of work. IMHO their triggers suck. The #3 was stolen, the #1 is not for sale. My experience with Li'l Gun has been great but it is NOT compatible with light bullets in my experience. Perhaps this will sound nuts but I think all rifle reloaders should start with the Hornet. IT'll shoot if you don't screw up too much. and when you do it'll let you know. Great cartridge and a good teacher.

... I've always had good luck with my hornets. The worst was a Ruger heavy barrel stainless 77/22... I didn't keep it very long, as it was just too heavy for what I wanted to do... I saw (and still see) the hornet as a walk-around varmint/beercan/horseapple/etc.. kind of gun. I only got 1 1/2 to 2" groups from it... but I didn't work with it much at all... probably fired 150-200 rounds thru it. Then I had an NEF Handi-Rifle... it would shoot 1 3/4" groups until I started seating 40gr bullets out to almost touch the lands... after that, 1 to 1 1/4" groups were normal. Then I got my TC Contender Carbine.... the first barrel was a 16" regular hornet, that was a genuine tackdriver. It would consistently shoot under an inch.... many groups were below 3/4"... I had one chance to shoot it at 200yds.... .my last 5 shots, and it shot a 1 1/4" group. Being such a short barrel (LOUD), I sold it (stupid) and got a Bullberry barrel in 22 K-Hornet. It is what I currently shoot. With 40gr VMax bullets and Lil Gun powder, it will group under an inch consistently... usually between 3/4 and1" .... this one will also shoot the 50gr Speer TNT at 2825fps into an inch with amazing regularity. The 40gr bullets will hit 3200fps with no problem...although I usually shoot slightly slower than that... about 3100-3150....
There's nothing wrong with the accuracy of the Hornet... it just needs a little more attention to detail than your average 223 or 222.... but it's worth it, it terms of efficiency, and lack of muzzle blast. It's an addiction....

I have a Ruger Hornet with the heavy stainless barrel. I've found that 13.0 gr of Lil-Gun and small pistol primers give me good accuracy, 2950 fps and long case life. I used 13.0 gr of Lil-Gun with some Speer 50 gr TNT's and got the best groups from it. Averaged out to 5/8". If you want a single shot Hornet I'd find a Browning low wall. I've shot one on a gopher hunt in MT and it was a lot more accurate than my Ruger is.

Wachtel: I have owned a "bunch" of Hornet Varmint Rifles over the years and yes the accuracy has been "varied" to describe it in one word. I still own several 22 Hornets both collectors Guns and just "neat" little Rifles. I only actively Varmint Hunt and shoot one Hornet though these days. Its a Ruger #1-B in 22 Hornet! In 1997 I took another "chance" and bought the Ruger #1-B in 22 Hornet. I mounted a Leupold 6X18 variable scope on it and have been real happy with it. I use Nickel plated Hornet brass from Remington in it now and for some reason these handloads shoot better than with the original Winchester Hornet non-plated brass I bought along with the Rifle. Don't ask me why - it just does. The Rifle is still factory stock - no bedding or hangers or trigger jobs as yet! And by the way I began using the Nickel plated brass as a result of communications and a reccomendation from here on the internet! I am looking at my loading log now and the beautiful little Ruger's last two groups at the range were .778" and 1.067" (5 shots at 100 yards). My loading log also noted that the wind was 10 MPH those days and the shooting conditions were rated as poor. These groups were shot with the Hornady 35 grain V-Max. I love my little Ruger! And its twin! I also have a Ruger #1-B in 218 Bee and it also has a Leupold 6X18 variable on it. The 218 Bee shoots somewhat better but they both perform plenty well out to the limits of their projectiles trajectory. Perhaps you might consider the 218 Bee for your uses. I have killed a Badger and a couple of large Rock Chucks with this Hornet as well as Coyote and Fox with my older Hornets. With a good bullet and careful aim you will be successful. I use the Hornet and the Bee on Ground Squirrels and Prairie Dogs mostly. I am happy I have them both though and recommend you try a Ruger #1-B in Hornet. I have also found over the years that used Ruger #1's in good shape are very easy to resell and you will not lose much money on it.
Speaking of buying and selling. A couple of months ago a Gun Shop here in SW Montana was selling about 15 Ruger #1's for $499.00 (U.S.) each! This is about $76.00 less than normal "good" pricing! No sales tax in Montana! I have notbeen back to that store since I saw the sale. I came within an ants eyelash of owning a second Ruger #1-B in 22 Hornet that day! It had very pleasing wood and they had a #1-B in 223 Remington that had excellent wood on it. I just have too many 223's right now. If you are interested I will relay the contact information for the shop to you! They also have a website as I recall.
Good luck if you decide to try one!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

The latest posts have re-kindled my interest in this gun But the prices in Sweden are somewhat steep at the moment... A #1-B would set me back over $1000, and that's just the rifle Looks like I'll have to wait until prices go down again.

I've had a #3 for quite a few years and only worked with it a little. Groups about an inch. The trigger on mine is very nice, not like Dan's. I found the throat in this rifle very long. But this discussion has gotten me interested again, so I'm going to put a scope back on it and have another go.

Very interesting theme. At this time, I�m thinking very seriously about a Ruger Number One in Rem .222. I have one in 30-06 which I load from 110 to 200 grains, and seems to handle everything. The Rem. .222 is the easiest, most accurate round I�ve ever dealt with. Bar none.

Scott