I am sure some are getting tired of the Blue Dot sagas and soap operas playing out in Accurate Reloading Recently.,

However, a few seem to like the results they are expereincing.

Whether I am considered knowledgable or "expendible", who knows, what their motivation was. However, I have received several personal emails asking if I have any experience with Blue Dot in a 243.

No I didn't but I see it as an acceptable candidate in a Varmint weight caliber bullet at least. IN playing with the 223 and 22/250, I have taken both cases and filled them to the neck with Blue Dot to see their capacity, since people have worried about a double charge potential.

The 223 held 23.5 grains of Blue Dot. The 22/250 held 32 grains of Blue Dot and the 243 held 38 grains of Blue Dot.

With a 40 grain to 46 grain in the 223, I have been using 14.5 grains of B.D. which seems to be about the max capacity for reliable and long case life. ( Lake City and Rem cases).

IN the 22/250, With 55 grain Bullets, 20.5 to 21 grains seemed to be about max also. I am settling on 20 grains of B.D. for this case.

So a little fast math on the calculator told me that 14.5 grains divided by 23.5 max capacity, safety is achieved with about 62 % of max case capacity.

20 grains divided by 32 grains in the 22/250 is 62.5 % of max capacity. It has also proved to be reliable for case life and safety.

So I concluded then in the 243 I would look at 60% case capacity ( 38 gr Max), and came up with a load of 22.8 grains.

to make the beam scale just a hair easier, I settled on 22.5 grains. I don't think 3/10s of a grain is going to be a big performance maker or breaker. I chose an 80 grain bullet since that is the max weight of bullet I use for Varmint Applications in a 243 case.

I did not get to chronograph these loads today as I ran out of day light before I could get over to the range to check them out. However a quick trip up the road to state forest land, I verified that 22.5 grains is definitely safe in a 243 Rem case.

I shot 5 used cases and then came home and resized them and installed new primers. The primers went in as well as the new cases I primed for comparison.

YOU may be able to work this load up to 23 grains or a little higher, but I don't think you will have much to gain. Remember with a powder this fast, once you hit max capacity, you don't have a 10% error range that seems to be built into powders like 4350 or 4831.

Since the Blue Dot loads have been so accurate in the 22/250 and 223, I have no reason to think the 243 will not follow suit. Recoil was noticably lighter also.

I hope those that asked me about it, find this info useful.
The 60 % theory I recommend still working up in other cases.

I don't load for the 25 caliber lines, but I plan on playing with this in a 260, and a 6.5 x 55 in the near future. Will keep anyone interested posted on the results.

Anyone who shoots a 444 I have tried it in that case using 20 grains. It shot well, and had noticable lesser recoil. Velocity was chronographed at about 1750 or so in a 22 inch barrel.
Equal to 44 Mag rifle loads, ( that is where I also got the idea).

This was done with a 300 grain XTP bullet. Based on lack of aerodynamics of that bullet, max Point Blank Range was only about 10 to 15 yrds less than the popular compressed powder loads.

Have also tried it in the 30/30. Results there were the only place I had very disappointed results. That was in the 12 to 15 grains range, with 110 grain, 125 grain and 150 grain bullets. go figure?

Cheers and Good shooting.
Seafire

Tired!!!! seafire, you sir have style. What is here is printed out and saved on my computer.Before I got a computer and got on this forum I seldom found people of the CALIBER I communicate with here. Few shared my experimetal interests. Most found the one or two loads that worked in each rifle and they were happy to use these all the time. Not many have ever popped a primer You just keep it coming till you get tired and I'll be happy to give you the feed back of my results based on your inputs. Tired??? Hell man your one of this here group that makes me feel that I have arrived. Your contributions are really appriciated.

Changing the subject on you; Have you decided whether to send Mortie compound W or preperation H?

Thanks again roger

Roger,
Thanks for the kudos. I like to handload and have a natural curiosity about the parameters of my firearms. Even two by the same manufacturer in the same caliber.

It bugs me also, that manufacturers are always still pushing everyone to loads that require more powder to be used. More powder equals more recoil and throat erosion.

LIke my 444, I reduced recoil 50% and gave up about 10 to 15 yds, point blank range.

I often wonder every deer season watching guys at the rifle range zeroing their rifles for deer season. They want a 7 mag with a 300 yd zero to take a 75 pound black tail at 50 yds...
Just in Case! Usually they are happy if one shot out of 5 hit the target at 300 yds.

Minus the 7/08 and 260 Rem., I really have a hard time seeing any need for any cartridge developed after about the early 1960s., and really think a lot of hunters would be better off hunting with a few that went by the wayside after that period like the 250 , and 300 Savage or the 257 Roberts.

Naw, I consider myself practical in the middle of an insane world. Trying to keep up with the Joneses or trying to impress someone with "my gun being bigger than your gun" syndrome is something I never bought into.

Of course guys like me still prefer to hunt with round noses under 200 yds, and use a scope on 2 to 4 power most of the time, with 6 being the extreme max.

Heck I am so old fashion, I LOVE loading the 30/30 and 30/40 Krag.!!

Thanks again, and
Cheers and good shooting.
Seafire

Hey guys please don't kill the messenger on this one but with all the talk of Blue Dot in various cartridges I felt compelled to mention that on a small caliber site I frequent there has been an on-going thread about a fellow that was looking for a reduced load in the .17 Remington using Blue Dot. The rifle "was" a contender (enfisis on was), and there was a catastrophic failure. The man has now had numerous surgerys and more on the way to try to save the sight in his right eye. You should see the pictures of what's left of that rifle. Very thought provoking. Having been reloading since the late 60's one recurring topic in reloading circles has always been the curious and sometimes unpredictable nature of reduced loads. Just a thougt, my best to all of you.

"Minus the 7/08 and 260 Rem., I really have a hard time seeing any need for any cartridge developed after about the early 1960s., and really think a lot of hunters would be better off hunting with a few that went by the wayside after that period like the 250 , and 300 Savage or the 257 Roberts."

My sentiments ALMOST. Being a 7mmX57 And 6.5mmX55 advocate you can throw the short necked, short throated 7/08 and .260 in that group also.The .243 is ok because I only use bullets up to 80 gr. The .308 I tolerate because someone gave me one. I always figured ,however , if I wanted .308 performance I'd load down my 06.

More on the serious side, what's your thinking on the above caution on reduced loads especially with respect to Blue Dot? Prior to joining this forum I was always concerned about dangerous reduced loads in slow burning powders like 4350 only. Has there been any factual adverse happenings with reduced loads in fast burning powders? I'm not talking double loads or over loads. I really would like to be enlightend if anyone has factual information about this topic. So far the whole thing has been like a dark cloud hanging over my head and I don't know if it's ever going to hit me with it's thunder bolt. Anyone else feel that way?If anyone has any real facts please post them and let's start clearing the air. roger

Doug,

My prayers are with that individual and hope that he can recover as much as medically possible.

Nothing wrong with the reduced loads. I am sure what he did HAVE was TOO much powder in the case, of a fast burning powder.

That is not so much anything to do with the powder as much as it, ONE should WORK UP and also know what they are doing before playing around with things that explode.

Thanks for bringing it into the forum tho. Newbies should read it and read it again.

Seafire

Seafire, what happens when you reduce the Blue Dot down to get into the 1500-2000 fps range. I want a load for my 6mm that will be considerably quieter to carry while hunting. When I develop these loads I look for something that will hit the POA at 25. I finally found one with 10 gr Uniq and 80 gr FMJs. It isn'e very accurate, and it still may be half an inch right of POA, so I'm still working on it.

I've played around with 100s of reduced loads in this range, I hold with Col. Whelans idea that every rifle needs to have a reduced load. Less than 50% of case volume doesn't frighten me because when I load these I throw all my charges with the cases in the block, and then I peer in to compare powder levels. You can easily see even small variations in powder height when you see them side by side like this.

seafire/B17G, for short range reduced loads in the .243 consider #3 Buck with 3.5 gr.of Bullseye.

If a quiet plinking load is what you want, that's the load!

DaMan

Bil,

I have just started playing with Blue Dot in the 243. I used it because I know that it shoots circles around Unique in a rifle case.

If I was looking for the 1500 to 2000 fps range, and you have a chronograph, I would start at about 15 to 16 grains. 15.2 is at 40 % case capacity. If you are using it for Deer,( at say 150yds max) I would recommend using a 90 to 95 grain Ballistic tip in that application. Second choice would be a 87 grain VMax, if the deer are antelope sized.

If you are using it for Coyote, or something in that range, my choices would be a 75 grain Hornady HP or Vmax, 70 grain or 80 grain Ballistic tip, or the 60 grain Sierra bullets, or the 65 grain Hornady V Max.

If you don't have a chronograph, let me know what your "poison" is and I will load some up and let you know. Just send me an email above.

I like Blue Dot because of easy ignition and also consistency.
Today I went out and Chronographed some 22/250 loads with a 50 grain Hornady SPSX bullet. For 5 shots, my deviation was simply 2 fps! I have never seen anything that close.

Cheers and good shooting.
Seafire

No No, my reduced loads are for nothing larger than grouse or rabbits that I can't resist shooting at while I hunt the big stuff. Maybe 2000fps was overstating what I am looking for. I really don't care about what the vel is that much, what I look for is a load that doesn't make much noise, and shoots to the crosshair, or usually the lower point of the plex in my scope, WITHOUT CHANGING THE SIGHTS. I find that I can work up a load for almost all of my rifles that by changing the power of a variable and aiming with the lower point, that will be on at 25yds.

In the past I've always used cast bullets, but I've decided to try and avoid mixed shooting of cast and jacketed, at least in my accurate long range rifles. Thus I am in unexplored territory, and I am finding your work very helpful.

Bilmac,

I think you would find that the reduced noise and recoil in a Blue Dot load in the 1500 to 2000 fps range quite surprising.

In a 223, I have loaded it down to 4 grains with a small pistol primer and a 55 grain FMJ bullet and got 22 LR velocities.
IN a Varmint weight barrel, the recoil is almost non existant.

If you can hang loose, I will try to experiment with that velocity range, as I would also find it a useful thing in the field, for exactly what you are planning on with it.

Saturday I was back out squirrel shooting ( no NOT with Mortie), and today I was just having my time clocked messed up with this dopey Daylight savings time thing again.

I'll post you the results in the next couple of days if I have the chance to get out and shoot them.
Cheers and Good shooting
seafire

Roger,

I just saw your question of the pressure potential of down loaded loads with Blue Dot.

First being a shotgun powder, it is ignites easily and is also bulky. The only real documented cases of reduced loads blowing up that I have seen is using 4350 or 4831 or slower Powders. Parker Ackley in his book actually argued that he thought the concept was B.S. about blowing up a rifle because of that. He spectulated on different reasons than just the powder.

I have loaded 223 cases down to 4 grains of Blue dot and a 55 grain bullet to duplicate 22 LR loads which it did quite well, with appropriate recoil but major increase in accuracy.

If I am loading those rounds way down, I even prefer to use Small pistol primers in a 223, or Large Pistol Primers in a 22/250 size case. Before I hit the sack I will load up a couple of 243 cases with 7.5 grains of Blue Dot, and an 80 grain bullet and give you the results., as far as recoil and noise.

I will drop up to the state forest that is 2 miles up the road and shoot them in the morning.

Keep you posted,
Cheers and good shooting
Seafire

Bartsche and BilMac:

Since you two gentlemen raised a couple of questions
1. Reduced load potential of high pressure
2. A quiet yet accurate load with an 80 grain bullet.

Well, since the time had to change back to Daylight Savings Time and mess up my Time Clock
And it is a full moon
And I know I would be thinking about this all night in my sleep and not get any rest;

I loaded up two rounds of 7.5 grains of Blue Dot in a 243 case using Winchester Large Pistol primers, and an 80 grain Winchester SP bullet. I went up to the state forest 2 miles up the road and shot the two rounds. ( Hopefully no one thought I was a poacher)

As far as pressure problems, 2 rounds from a Ruger 77 Mk 2, that is in desperate need of a trigger job, caused no problems at all.

I did not put on hearing protection to answer BilMac's question about nose, and recoil. Recoil was virutally non existant, recoil being equal to a 17 HRM. The noise level was on par with a 17 HMR or a 22 Mag at most also.

So for 1500 fps BilMac, I am guesstimating that 10 grains of Blue Dot would give you close to that, with a bullet in the 75 ot 80 grain range.

I am sure accuracy is right there.

I picked 7.5 grains as an amount as it represented 20% of a full case of blue dot which is 38 grains. ( 7.8 grains was 20%)

10 grains would be 26%.

Hope you gentlemen found this somewhat useful.

Cheers and good shooting
Seafire

THANK YOU roger

seafire,
A big thanks from me as well. You've neatly solved my problem of what to shoot medium game with on a horse stud where noise is a factor. The 243 with Blue Dot and 90gr projectile will do the job nicely I think. Then I'll rebarrel it to 250 Savage and have some more fun. Many thanks...
Con

The guns that I have seen blow up were both fired with a bullet stuck up in the barrel. Each had been fired with no powder and the next shot blew a piece out of the side of the barrel on the rifle.

Con;

Glad to help out, Mate.

Sorry I don't have a 250 Savage, but if I rebarreled a short action, the 250 Sav would be way up on the top of my list, right with the 7/08 or a 270/08.

I really enjoy seeing some of those IMHSA cartridges based on the 300 Savage. Hodgdon's 26th edition reload manual has a whole section on them. Being developed for Encore style hand guns, they make wonderfully efficient cartridges.

That with Blue Dot would make a great 100 yd round or less.

I don't have much experience with subsonic bullet performance on game, but with the proper bullet and appropriate range, it would be a good combo I am sure.

Cheers and Good shooting
Seafire

seafire..

Found your post! Just the starting point I was looking for.

A couple of questions..

1.Did you find powder blow back into the chamber with any of your loads?
2.Have you trialled for accuracy at, say, 100m with Blue Dot loads in 243?

Thanks...

.....Titan

titan

NO there was not powder blow back. The cases come out very clean. I do not have to tumble them very long after resizing them.

As far as range of 100 meters, you must be from Europe, or at least not the USA.

One of the reasons I have spent time playing with Blue Dot is because of the consistency ( minimal deviation spreads when chronographed) and the accuracy I get from it is on par with a lot of the celebrated target powders such as Varget, etc.

Blue Dot, because of its consistency, has proven to be very accurate across a wide variety of calibers in my rifles. As for the accuracy it gives across the board in all sorts of different calibers, especially when downloading it, nothing has come close to across the board consistency.

I will do a more extensive test of the 243 also. Typcially I shoot 75 grain HPs, 80 grain SP and 95, 100 and 105 grain bullets in my 243's.

In between the loading and the testing I have a minor distraction to contend with, running a medical business, so please allow me a little patience gang. The dam Internal Rape Service has dominated my time the last week or so.

Cheers and good shooting
seafire

Here is a post on reduced load SEE. There was a fairly long discussion on the subject here.

Quote:

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"When Lady Luck kiss you goodbye, it is still goodbye!" As small charge of powder as .2 gram or 3.1 grains of shotgun powder is able to blow up action of a .308 Winchester rifle. (My empirical knowledge is based on test-shootings with .308).

That charge is half from definitively minimum load with a jacketed bullet, weighing 123 grains/ 8 grams and about one third from a safe minimum charge for .308 Win. with 170 grains / 11 grams jacketed bullet. The very same .20 gram / 3.1 grains is good, safe and subsonic charge for .308 Win. with a cast, lubricated lead alloy bullet with nominal weight 93 grains. Powder used for test-shootings was Finnish VIHTAVUORI N 320 (a most close counterpart of German blank-cartridge powder, adopted in 1933 and used as a propellant of 7.9 x 57 mm Mauser subsonic "Nahpatronen", loaded by Finower Industrie GmbH during WW II).

Two known accidents were also happened with reduced charges of that same powder by S.E. Effect. One with halved Definitively Minimum Charge and another with third D.M.C. Charge was in both instances before mentioned .20 gram / 3.1 grains. Bullets were - of course - jacketed ones, weighing 123 grains and 170 grains.

According to my test-shooting records is one full gram / 15.4 grains of N 320 safe charge behind both of these bullets in .308 Winchester cartridge with a standard (non-Magnum) Large Rifle primer. Powders N 310 or CLAYS are as or more easy to ignite as N 320, and so fit for use in reduced charge loads. This is the very most important quality of a powder, when the subsonic muzzle velocity is aspired after. Fast burning-rate and clean burning of powder are also beneficial - if not essential - properties.

An overly-reduced charge is a good way to court disaster, but reduced charge detonations are never (?) happened with a first shot of a string, when the rifle bore is still clean and at least slightly moistened with oil or grease. Risk of S.E.E. is increasing when the bore is fouled with carbon, lead dust from primers and unburned powder kernels, when the oil or grease is shot away from the bore.

First signal of imminent danger is increased variation of bullet velocities. A bullet, lodged into the bore, scares me always to have nightmares in seven to fourteen next nights... Velocity variations are usually not progressive but undulating because of variable bullet friction in the bore. Especially that friction (hardness) of jacketed bullets tends to vary, when the powder pressure behind them is low. Unfortunately this pressure cannot be higher, if one is trying to get subsonic velocity with each & every shot from the rifle, giving usually Mach 3 readings of bullet speed - like .223 .

A main reason of S.E.E. is disorder of powder ignition. Powder charge does not burn after the explosion of a priming pellet. It smoulders like a German tinder, developing a cocktail of explosive gasses like nitrogen oxides, hydrogen (very reactive "In Statu Nascendi" hydrogen - not yet bound to H2 molecules), and carbon monoxide. When this highly flammable mixture of gasses catches fire from still smouldering solid powder remnants, may the "BANG !" be horrible. Mere three grains of gasses may literally wreck the strong .308 Win. rifle action. (Three grains of smouldered solid powder is still three grains of material, despite of it's gaseous form of existence).

Maximum allowed chamber pressure of .308 Win. factory-loaded cartridges is 3600 atmospheres. Case head stands 4000 atm. but the action may be hard to open and the empty shell is usually no more reloadable. Primer pocket may be enlarged and/or the primer blown. Pressure 4200 to 4500 atm. may blow the case head, and the action of many rifles stands as much pressure as the cartridge head; no more.

Severe hand and/or eye injuries of the shooter are possible if the action fails. Eye injuries, including the permanent loss of eyesight, are possible, when the case head fails. This depends on construction of firearm's action, but use of eye protection is always advisable when one is bustling with weaponry. Highest measured detonation pressure was 10 000 atmospheres. A pietzo-electric pressure gauge was broken and highest grade on the pressure scale was this 10 kilobars. A sturdy test-barrel of a German gun-proofing laboratory was wrecked, of course.

This disastrous test was repeated with another set of equipment for the sake of comparison. Pressures of first shots were slightly less than normal. It might be fifth or sixth shot, when the new test-shooting barrel blew up. Again a pressure gauge disintegrated and a scale told: 10 000 atmospheres! It was presumably just a fraction from whole horrible truth, because so called "wave pressure" of a detonation may exceed reading A HUNDRED THOUSAND ATMOSPHERES, when the explosive material is in gaseous form of existence, pre-heated and pressurized before explosion.

Caliber of tested cartridge was .243 Winchester, bullet weight 80 grains, powder then-new NORMA MRP, and the charge... surprisingly... just 15 % less than a maximum (compressed !) load. It was STILL A REDUCED CHARGE DETONATION; not one caused by an excessive charge, because the charge could not be excessive with those components in use. Light bullet and slowly burning powder is not an advisable combination of loading components for .243 Win., known as a caliber prone to S.E. Effect. (It's "big brother" .308 and "kid brother" .22-250 are considerably less risky; last mentioned presumably because of more steep 25 degrees shoulder angle).

Needless to say: All the loading components were examined carefully afterwards. They were faultless. Just the burning rate of powder was selected wrongly for the bullet weight. MRP powder is O.K. for .243 Win., but for the heaviest bullets of this caliber; weight 100 or 105 grains. For the most usual 90 grainer bullets is some more fast-burning propellant advisable.

Noted was a slightly less than a tenth of second lasting delay between hit of a striker and explosion. This same delay is noted also by survivors of S.E.E. accidents, if they can remember something from the "big bang". (Usual recollection is: "I squeezed the trigger and woke up in the hospital"). If the delay lasts a second or more, it is just an usual hang-fire, without signs of excessive pressure.

These experiences may tell something about nature of S.E.E. Fortunately enough, not all hangfires lead to detonation, but they are warning signals: Something is gone wrong - or going "Helvetin kuuseen..!" (= towards the disaster). Powder & bullet combination may be wrong, or the primers are faulty: Deteriorated by handling with greasy or oily fingers. Priming pellet may be crushed with excessive priming force..!

P.S. That story about two broken .243 Win. test-barrels and purposeful courting of S.E.E. in Germany is told in the book "Handbuch f�r den Wiederlader" by K.D.MEYER, who was then a director of German DEVA Institute. Source

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This source also verifies Norma MRP with a 15% reduced charge in the .243 was induced to exhibit SEE in the lab.