I am in the research phase, for a fur friendly very fast magazine fed varmint cartridge. Probably something between 17-224 caliber.

I have these ideas as options, what do you think?

20-250

204 Ruger

20 BR

22-6mm Ackley

6mm Ackley

19-250

19-223

17-223

17-BR

20 BR

Look up Keystone Accuracy and John's 220 thunderbolt-it is a 6.8 SPC necked to 224 and runs mid weight bullets bout as briskly as a 22/250. Billet or standard AR uppers and choices of barrels etc. A mag full of 77 grain BTHPs at 3000+ ought to do the trick- with heavies ( 80s and 90s) it is a proven performer all the way to and past 1000. for more than that, check out the 240 tomahawk- same platform etc.

I never used a 17 or 20 cal, so I am speaking from BCs and such, but it seems that a 22 of decent weight will carry farther than a 20 or 17- but your conditions are not specified.

If you are staying within 400 yards, the plain jane 223 with 75/77 bullets would do just fine! Service rifle competitors use 75-77s at mag length at 600 with aplomb, while long seated, single loaded 80s hold tighter in the wind.... My 75 load runs at 2775 , which would do fine for critters too.

For longer range varmints you are going to have to shoot heavy for caliber bullets to help keep wind drift to a minimum and frankly bullet construction plays a more important role than bore diameter for keeping hide damage to a minimum. The perfect varmint rifle IMO is a 6mm, whether a 243Win, 6mmRem, or ......

quote:

Originally posted by just-a-hunter:
I've always wanted a 1-7" twist 22-250 foe just the aplication you are describing. Have yet to have one built..

Todd

There are a lot of options, I am not sure long range and fur friendly are possible together.

The 1-7 twist 22-250 would be awesome.

I am also considering a 20-250 with a 1 in 8.

I have a couple AR-15 and AR-10 lowers I have never messed with ( I am a bolt rifle guy), thinking about a 204 ruger repeater in the Ar-15.

I am not into the small stuff and prefer a bit larger caliber and the wind bucking abilities. I like the 6mm's and .25's. Generally shooting coyotes, but wolves on occasion and I want something that can carry the mail out to 500+ on windy days................ and the .22's and smaller just won't cut it.

My wife and I have a .243 and a .257 Weatherby. With FMJ spritzers they reach way out there and do next to nothing for hide damage 95% of the time.

I have also found that the TSX works well and does minimal damage if you stick to behind the shoulder shots.

We use to shoot .222's, .22-250's and Swift's but overall prefer the bigger cartridges. But that is just us and I am sure many will disagree.

WY;

I doubt you'd enjoy such a fast twist unless you down-laded velocity wise and or used monometal bullets-even big heavy 22s (90 SMKs tend to blow up when pushed really hard-even 75/77s come apart when rotated that quickly AND pushed past 3200 fs or so.

The solution for the bigger 22s is to run heavier bullets in 8 or even 9 twist barrels, some 12s even will stabilize 80s well-at 3200+. Remember, rotational velocity is a product of twist and velocity.

TAC 20

The 22/243 Middlested with 52gr Sierra bthp at 4100fps works well to around 400 yards from a 14 twist. Switch to a 9 twist and 75 to 80 gr Sierra match bthp bullets from 3550 & 3400 for the longer ranges. The 76 Amax is not fur friendly.

Todd;

Not necessarily-with a standard varmint twist of 1/12 etc they will likely work fine, too slow a twist, maybe 14 and they may not stabilize, too fast, say 1/7 and they may, bullet dependent, come apart due to over rotational forces. A 75/77 bthp may be just fine with either a 1/7 or 9 or 12....

yes,I know the military uses 77SMKs in 1/7 M4s, but they do not exceed 2850fs either....

How about a 40 grain bullet going 4385 fps with IMR 3031, or a 50 grain bullet going 4081fps with IMR 4064, one more. Or a 55 grain bullet going 3921 with IMR 3031. What magical cartridge is this? The fabulous 220 Swift. This data is from Lyman #44. What else you need?

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by just-a-hunter:
So running a 22-250 with 75-80 gr bullets around 3100 would be bad?

Todd

Nope not bad at all, but I think you'd only need a 9" twist for most bullets in that weight range. That would slow down your RPM's considerably from a 7" twist and be a lot easier on the bullets. You would change your RPM's from 318,000 to 248,000 by going with a slower twist.

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi

Here is a link to JBM ballistics- you can input your variables and come up wih a realistic set of limits for what you have/want.

Bullet stability is primarily a function of length, not weight.

Remember to actually measure your bbl twist rate- just because it may be marked as 1/ whatever, it may be closer to 1 in whatever plus or minus 1 or.... To quickly get a good idea for your bbl twist, fit a tight patch to a free spinning rod and mark, with draw while watching your mark until it turns one or two complete revs, then measure- you'll need to mark nex to some ref point- like the end of your action or muzzle etc, repeat three X, average and there you are.

20 Tactical, can't go wrong

When ya'll find a varmint caliber that kills coyotes well and won't tear one up if bone is hit, please let me know..one or two coyotes don't count!

I've found you can patch a hole or even a tear pretty easy. I have tried solids and lost several coyotes in doing so. I have tried fast light bullets that would'nt penetrate and sometimes they tear a coyote in half, hard bullets allow them to run miles!! I just use whatever and hope for the best.

Probably the best coyote gun I've used that kill well and saves fur is the 30-06 with 180 gr. bullets, usually a one inch exit and they don't run very far and they bleed profusely, most drop at the shot..better than any varmint gun I've used.

Today coyote pelts aren't bringing enough to bother with so I like a 6x45 or 250 Savage for coyotes.

First question I guess it what is longer range? If your calling dogs in it is seldom that they will hang up beyond 3-350 yards unless you are totally busted and shooting runners. That's a shoot and adjust fire proposition at best past 350 anyway. If you can find brass the 223wssm is tough to beat with 50 grain b-tips or as stated any of the 6mms with any of the 55 to 90 grain bullets (70 grain b-tips are my favorite). The trouble is reliable long range bullets will usually provide normal range pelt damage as previously stated.

IMO, for the perfect long range varminter rifle I would advise going to your favorite 6mm. They are better suited for the longer ranges, and access to fur friendly bullets is easy.

I trapped and hunted coyotes professionally for a couple decades and recreationally for another decade and a half. I also put up coyote hides for several callers in the area when I lived in the Northwest. I came up with some pretty strong opinions on what was fur friendly and what was not.

I have seen the 243 Win/6mm Rem leave small exit wounds on coyotes, on rare occasions. Generally they are very destructive. Great long range options for coyote snipers but not fur guns. Same applies to large capacity 22's and heavy bullets. The 22-250 and 220 Swift do well with some of the 50 and 52 grain bullets. The Sierra 1365 55 grain Game King is a good bullet in any 22 centerfire for fur, from what I've seen.

To address the choices you listed, I cannot speak to the 19's. Never messed with them or ran into anyone who used one. The 204 and the 17-223/17 Remington would be my choices for a coyote fur gun. When I bought my 17 I put away my 22 centerfires for fur. Coupled with the Hornady 25 grain HP, the 17 Remington will give stellar, fur friendly performance. I haven't used the 204 but several of my friends have them, and from what I've seen of their coyotes it's on a par with the 17 for fur friendly.

The 40 grain .224 bullets at hyper speeds work well if they don't hit bone. You'll get a lot of splash or gaping entrance wounds when you hit a shoulder. Slip one into the lungs without hitting the shoulder and they are spectacular and fur friendly. An ugly mess if you hit bone.

Since you specifically asked for fur friendly, the 17 and the 204 stand out to me as the best choices. I assume you are calling and most called coyotes are not shot at prodigious ranges. I've killed 20 called coyotes under 100 yards for every one I've killed over 100 yards. Both the 17 and the 204 will give you 300 yard capabilities, though you'll seldom need it for calling, even in open country.

If you want a long range and fur friendly combination I'd recommend the 22-250 and the Sierra 1365 55 grain Game King. It's a great bullet and rifle combination. It is rarely hard on fur and a pretty good long range round. It's tough to couple ultra long range and fur friendly. The things that make a bullet and excellent long range bullet, make it tough on fur, generally.

I've put up hundreds of called/hunted coyotes for myself and others, and had them brought to me, shot with everything from 22 LR to the 300 magnums. These are my findings for what it's worth.