Hi, I'm planning to buy a 223 Rem. varmint rifle, for informal target shooting at 200 and (seldom) 300 m. For some reasons, here, the choice of rifles is quite limited, so I'm almost settled on a CZ Varmint laminated, whose barrel twist rate should be 1:12. My question is: do I really need a 1:9 barrel twist rate?

only if you plan to shoot heavy for caliber buletts if you plan to shoot 55 gr or even 63 gr should be no problem when you get up to 75 gr they do not work so well in a 1in 12 I shoot the cz varint kevlar and it is 1in9 very good rifle also shoot a standart 223 cz 527 1in12 and it also wororks just fine with my loads and factory ammo at 55 grains.

I have a 1:9 on a custom Sako but only because I wanted to play with heavier bullets. If you can live without the 69 gr and longer or heavier match bullets you should be fine with a 1:12. Flat base bullets as heavy as the 64 grain WW Powerpoint work fine in a 1:12 and in years past Speer said their flatbase semispitzer 70 gr works even in a 1:14 @ 222 velocities.

Look at it htis way: A 1:9 or even a 1:8 will function well with virtually the entire range of available bullets save for the Hornady SX, Sierra medium velocity blitz, etc.

The .223 Savage 12BV SS with a 1:9 twist does great with bullets from 80 grain down to 34grain. roger

My own preference is for an 8" twist in the .223 rifle. That's because I like to be able to use the whole field of low drag 75 & 80 grain bullets without having to worry about minimal stabilization. I have not found that quick twist to be a handicap with short & light bullets and it is an advantage with the longer ones.

Because of the current (and future?) uncertaincies about which if any ammo or components will be available, I would not personally buy any barrel twist slower than 9" right now.

Everyone else's mileage may differ.

I agree go with a 1:8. 69 gn HPBT Sierra MatchKings shoot so good and buck the wind very well inside 200 yards. I have a 1:8 twist, 21", #1 contour Douglas on a pre 64 Win 70 and have had many 1:8 as well as 1:7 twist barrels on AR-15's. Accurate 600 yard shots are available with the 1:8 or 7 if you should ever want to use it that far. They also shoot 52 gn HPBT Sierra MatchKings very tight @ 100 yards.

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Originally posted by bartsche:
The .223 Savage 12BV SS with a 1:9 twist does great with bullets from 80 grain down to 34grain. roger

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. Are you serious ????.. I have a 9" twist on my 223 and have been afraid to order 70 gr. bullets because I didn,t think they would stabilize ,.???

What velocity would I need to stabilize the 70 gr TSX ????

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Originally posted by gumboot458:

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Originally posted by bartsche:
The .223 Savage 12BV SS with a 1:9 twist does great with bullets from 80 grain down to 34grain. roger

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. Are you serious ????.. I have a 9" twist on my 223 and have been afraid to order 70 gr. bullets because I didn,t think they would stabilize ,.???

What velocity would I need to stabilize the 70 gr TSX ????

yeah, mine just like Roger's Savage, will stabilize 75 and 80 grain bullets just fine...

the 75 and 80 grain A maxes are some fun bullets that really reach waaaaay out there!

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Originally posted by wildboar:
My question is: do I really need a 1:9 barrel twist rate?

I have a Steyr Pro Hunter 1:9 which handles everything up to 69grn with no problem.
I also have a Savage LRPV 1:7 in which I use up 80grn Sierra Match Kings. I've yet to be able to shoot on a range longer than 200 and I think at 200+ ranges the LRPV MIGHT come into it's own. BTW the LRPV will shoot 55grn Sierras but over 100yds the group size is sometime not much better than the Pro Hunter.

The design of the bullets permits stabilization in unheard of slower twists.

I have a friend who shoots 69 gn Sierra Matchkings very accurately out of a 1:12 twist Remington 700. I called Sierra and they said they were not surprized. That 69 gn SMK is designed to be shot at magazine length OAL.

I thot I would be stuck with the 62 gr TSX , which wouldn,t be the end of the world ! But If that is the case I will get a box of each and try them out ...

Sure would make a great fur load .. Slower speed for less ruined fur and greater penetration and thump a wolf alot better .....
the way our subsistence caribou hunt goes here it is kind of a one rifle thing for me ... The 70 gr bullets would be great for bou and wolf , which follow the herds .............

Wildboar: 1-12" is faster than anything I own in a .22 centerfire (an even dozen of them). I can't feature wishing to shoot anything heavier than the 64 grain WW Power Point, which does fine from any. (Shooting heavier bullets is why I own some 6mm rifles.) If your wish is to shoot only "conventional" .224" weights then the 1-12" will potentially give you better performance than a faster twist. 1-9" and 1-7" twists are for specialty rifles shooting VERY long spitzers at relatively slow speeds.

If you, like some of the posters who are telling you how inadvisable the 1-12" twist is, wish to shoot such very long specialized bullets, the by all means special order a 1-8 or 1-7 barrel. If you intend to feed it mostly a diet of convention 55 grainers or something similar, then the CZ twist is fine.

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If you, like some of the posters who are telling you how inadvisable the 1-12" twist is, .

The 1:12 twist is great for what it does. The information that I was trying to pass on was that the Savage with a 1:9 is MOA with even inexpensive 34gr HP VarMint Nite Mare bullets as well as the heavier bullets and it isn't a special order. roger

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1-9" and 1-7" twists are for specialty rifles shooting VERY long spitzers at relatively slow speeds.

Thanks Stonecreek you have re-inforced my belief that if you read posts you may or may not have an interest in you CAN learn something.

Last Saturday I was at the range shooting 77grn NCC out of my Savage LRPV 1:7 twist and the best group was shot a relatively slower speed than normal.

I'll go back and look at the test loads I did with 80grn Sierra Match King and re-do some slower speed loads.

Best Regards,

Bill Dyer (Steyrl)

1:7-9 are NOT only for long specialized bullets bullets traveling at low velocities.

1:7 is fine for all but the smallest and most lightly constructed varmint bullets out there. Any quality made bullet 50 gns through 80 gns will shoot extremely well.

My favorite bullet as far as accuracy out to 300 yds is the 69 gn Sierra HPBT Matchking. I also like the 65 gn Sierra Gameking, but it doesn't shoot as accurately as the 69 SMK.

69 and 77 gn SMK's and 65 gn GK's were all designed to be shot at magazine length and they do so very well.

I am no expert but most of my guns (all calibers) shoot very accurately @ 2600-2660 fps over my Shooting Chrony. I don't know what velocity I am actually getting with the following 223 loads but I shoot my 69 and 80 gn SMK's with 24.5 gns of RL-15 these days. I also like 22.5 gns of H335 for both. These are all very accurate and still going strong @ 600 yds and you can shoot 200 rds at a sitting before you need to clean the bore. You don't have to baby the gun but do not want to let the barrel get too hot in a string.

I am a 223 fan with the 1:7 or 8 twist. I used to be a big 220 Swift fan, but not anymore.

Hey guys, I didn't say the you COULDN'T successfully shoot .224 bullets of conventional weights out of a fast twist barrel. Sure you can. But, on average, a fifty grain bullet will shoot more accurately from a 1-14" twist than from a 1-7" twist barrel. After all, how many benchrest shooters in the light varmint class use 1-7" barrels? None, of course, because that twist is not the BEST for lighter bullets.

Wildboar's question was whether he really needed a twist faster than 1-12". The answer is that if he does not intend to shoot bullets heavier than the mid-sixties, then the 1-12" twist is fine. And on average, it will do better with lighter bullets than will a faster twist, although as we all know, rifles are individuals and there are always exceptions to the norm.

If you have to shoot lead-free bullets like we do in California (which may be coming soon to a state or country near you), you had better go with the faster twist. The current leadfree bullets ie Barnes are longer and need the faster twist to stabilize. Not that you can't shoot Barnes with the slower twists but the 1:9 or faster gives you more options.

Hi guys, I've just got an email fron CZ EU; they say that, unlike I supposed (and unlike the CZ USA website states), ALL the 527 223 Rem. varmint models currently have a 1:9 twist barrel; tomorrow I will go to the gun shop and buy the rifle. Thanks for your useful hints.

I,m trying some 70 gr TSX in my 9" twist 223 Rem ... I will report back ...

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Originally posted by wildboar:
Hi guys, I've just got an email fron CZ EU; they say that unlike I supposed (and unlike the CZ USA website states) all the 527 223 Rem. varmint models currently have a 1:9 twist barrel; tomorrow I will go to the gun shop and buy the rifle. Thanks for your useful hints.

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What stock does that model come with ?? Is it the one with the laminated or Kevlar stock .. Those sure are nice rifles ...

My first choice was the kevlar stock, but it's currently unavailable in Italy, so, I have to "content myself" with the laminated.

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Posted 15 June 2009 11:14 Hide Post

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Originally posted by bartsche:
popcornThe .223 Savage 12BV SS with a 1:9 twist does great with bullets from 80 grain down to 34grain. beerroger

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. Are you serious ????.. I have a 9" twist on my 223 and have been afraid to order 70 gr. bullets because I didn,t think they would stabilize ,.???

What velocity would I need to stabilize the 70 gr TSX ????

I have a Savage FVSS with 1:9 that stabilizes 70 grain TSXs at 3300 over 26.6 BLC-2 and puts them into dime size groups. I don't think Bambi will like them.

Thanks . I only have a 20" barrel on my 223 .. I,m going to give them a try .... Sure seems like an ideal load if they work out ....

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I have a Savage FVSS with 1:9 that stabilizes 70 grain TSXs at 3300 over 26.6 BLC-2

Since most ballisticians consider 3250 fps with a 55 grain bullet to be about what 55,000 CUP buys you in a .223, how much pressure do you think you're generating to get 3300 fps from a bullet that is 27% heavier?

Just a news update, I've finally decided to order a Tikka T3 varmint with the 1:8 twist barrel, that I should get within 10-15 days; I already have 2 other Tikka, a 695 and a T3, that give me complete satisfaction....I couldn't resist.

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I have a Savage FVSS with 1:9 that stabilizes 70 grain TSXs at 3300 over 26.6 BLC-2


Since most ballisticians consider 3250 fps with a 55 grain bullet to be about what 55,000 CUP buys you in a .223, how much pressure do you think you're generating to get 3300 fps from a bullet that is 27% heavier?

I don't get even moderately flattened primers out of it, extraction and bolt lift are normal.

I don't think it's particularly high. I had to work up the load twice in two weeks. I made a mistake writing down the OAL in the notebook and found that group size just blew way out. Rather than trust to luck and blow me up, I just started over and worked out the OAL then moved back up in charge to where it hit that sweet spot again.

This is a rebarreled gun, It IS a factory barrel though. The chamber throat is a little long and it is a 26 inch barrel. The load is chronographed at that velocity. I wouldn't try it in my Remington. The remmy is a 1:12 and it keyholes the 70 grain TSXs at fifty yards so it's a non issue for it anyway. Last year was the fisrt year we could use .22 CFs here but I didn't have this solved yet. I am really looking forward to whacking Bambi with this thing this year.

I am planning on getting a strain gauge onto this rifle and calibrating it at some point if I can find a digital oscilloscope at the right price.

Lots of Savage 223's have lots of freebore. That will bleed off a lot of pressure. My friend has set back oodles of them NIB for guys. The freebores range from .050" to .375" and I am not exagerating. I had one that was .365" myself and a friend has one with .052". It is kind of hit hard to get near the lands (LOL). Hard...it is impossible. They shoot though.

Nope. Keep bullets around 50 grain or less.

My CZ 527 in 223 has a 1-12" twist. I feed it right, and it shoots well. Right now I'm shooting high speed 45 grain bullet loads and it shot 3 shots into a 1/2" group this past Tueday. I am happy.
I could also be happy with a fast twist 223, although I don't own one. The fast twist will handle heavier bullets, I know, but I have other larger caliber rifles for those bullets right now.

DMB try 69 gn Sierra Matchkings in that 1:12. They shoot great out of many if not all Remington 700 1:12 barrels. My friend shoots them through his @ 350 - 400 yds all the time. Although not recommended by Sierra or me, he hunts deer with them and has all one shot kills. The shots were in the vitals and not head shots. The load we use for the 69 gn SMK is: LC cases, WSR primer, and 22.5 gns of H-335

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Lots of Savage 223's have lots of freebore. That will bleed off a lot of pressure. My friend has set back oodles of them NIB for guys. The freebores range from .050" to .375" and I am not exagerating. I had one that was .365" myself and a friend has one with .052". It is kind of hit hard to get near the lands (LOL). Hard...it is impossible. They shoot though.

This is one of them. I cannot seat a lot of bullets far enough out to touch. By the time I get a 53 TSX at .050 off it's barely in the neck. If this were the only .223 I owned I would likely never trim cases.

Miles , do you have a load with RL 15 powder and a more SAAMI oal..????????????

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Posted 18 June 2009 22:57 Hide Post
Miles , do you have a load with RL 15 powder and a more SAAMI oal..????????????

Not sure I understand what you're asking for. This load has a decent OAL because the 70 grain TSXs like to be seated really deep in this gun. I don't remember what it is off hand, but it is actually shorter than other loads I have used in this gun.

The possibility of an over pressure load for certain exists with this particular load but two work ups came to the same load without any indication of pressure excess.

At present I do not have any RL-15 in the cabinet. It's close enough to Varget's speed that I haven't needed to mess with it.

I have a good magazine length load using RL-15 for 65gn Sierra Gamekings 24.5 gns of RL-15. It also showed zero pressure signs @ 25.0 gns but 24.5 was the tighter group. This was in my 21" model 70 223 with 1:8 barrel.

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Originally posted by miles58:

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Posted 18 June 2009 22:57 Hide Post
Miles , do you have a load with RL 15 powder and a more SAAMI oal..????????????

Not sure I understand what you're asking for. This load has a decent OAL because the 70 grain TSXs like to be seated really deep in this gun. I don't remember what it is off hand, but it is actually shorter than other loads I have used in this gun.

The possibility of an over pressure load for certain exists with this particular load but two work ups came to the same load without any indication of pressure excess.

At present I do not have any RL-15 in the cabinet. It's close enough to Varget's speed that I haven't needed to mess with it.

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. I got a box of 70 gr TSX yesterday and tried them today .. The box of bullets has a sticker on it that says For 1in8" twist or faster .... # different powders , 9 different powder weights ..Velocities from the high 2600s to just under 3000 fps . Most of the bullet holes in the target are about 5/16 th high by about 3 16ths wide ,and nice big groups ... I would say the sticker was right . My barrel is supposed to have a 1in9 twist . . I did get good velocity with 24.5 gr RL15 , 2989 fps @ 18 ft from the chrony .. That load actually hit the target @ 100 yards .. I was very happy that the 20 " barrel produced the nice velocity .........
.. .Since a different bullet is cheaper than a new barrel I spose i,ll trythe 62 gr TSX .. I sure like the look of these 70 gr TSX .plus they have a bc of .331 ...It sure is tempting to think about a different barrel .......