That said, today I use the .338 Win or a .375 H&H..I don't see a lot of bulls like we did 50 years ago, and I take the shots as they come, going away in the thick stuff mostly and I shoot them up the tube and put them on their nose with the big calibers..

I think you are limiteing your success with any 25 cal. today and may have to pass on a great bull or make a mistake and wound him, never to be found if you don't have the maturity to hunt with a light rifle. I can say the same about hunting deer with a .223 or 25-35, they work but they MUST be used within their limits. A lot of hunters cannot do this, but go into the fields thinking they can then they wound a great animal, not good!

Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-326-4120

If ,Ray's analysis is worth while, and I think it is, IS IT PRUDENT TO INTENTIONALLY CARRY A 30-30 WHEN HUNTING ELK?

Consider if you will that up the tube shot that you want the bullet to eventually wind up in the boiler room, or a rib rackeing shoot with the animal qurtering away. Been there both times but not with a 30-30. Sure thousands of Elk have fallen to the 30-30 but that isn't the point of the question as you will note.

This is being posted here because of the .257 similar thread.

No 25-35 stories please. roger

Anyone who has read my posts knows where I stand on marginal rounds and bullets. The 30-30, although legal to use on elk in Colorado and shoots heavier bullets is still one of the last rounds I’d pick as my all around elk rifle cartridge (the key word there is MY).

I know people that hunt elk every year with a 94 and bring home meat. These guys are not hunting in unfamiliar country though. They know how the animals move and when. They know where to setup good ambush spots, which work within the limitations of the 30-30.

That said, if I was buying an out of state license (what’s the price of that license?) and spending money on travel, hotels, and maybe a guide service, I’d sure as hell be packing a lot more gun than a 30-30.

I guess we’ll see how this thread goes.

I would not use a 30/30 on an elk hunt but.....

I would rather use a 30/30 for a broadside shot than use a .375 or .338 "shooting up the pipe."

IMO anyone that intentionally takes shots at a game animal by shooting at the rear end should not be able to obtain a license.

quote:

Originally posted by Rx7dryver:

IMO anyone that intentionally takes shots at a game animal by shooting at the rear end should not be able to obtain a license.

I hear you. I don’t get a warm fuzzy feeling about that either.

When I lived on the Colorado front range I often carried a Winchester Trapper in 30/30 elk hunting because where I had permission to hunt had a hell of a lot of climbing and trees to contend with and it was handy to hump it. I also didn't shoot at 80% or more of the elk I saw on those hunts because I didn't have high probability shots and the same rough terrain would have made tracking a lightly wounded animal very very very un-fun. It's an acceptable cartridge if you use it within it's limitations which are considerable.

My 2 cents.

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:
It's an acceptable cartridge if you use it within it's limitations which are considerable.

I don’t know for sure but I think your words are going to get missed in this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:
It's an acceptable cartridge if you use it within it's limitations which are considerable.

I don’t know for sure but I think your words are going to get missed in this thread.

So will a lot of other people's. That's all I have to say on the subject anyway. It's an acceptable cartridge used within it's limitations and, no, I never head shot an elk with a Win Trapper 30/30 because it was barely a 2MOA rifle and those mountains have a lot of wind. Close in boiler room or not at all.

You know the bit of the front range where you sometimes almost get blown clean off I-5 between Pueblo and Springs? Not a good place for low probability shots with any rifle because of the winds. Past 75 yards would be silly.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
<SNIP>

As edited above, and I believe you'd agree with me. In good conditions within acceptable range and not trying for a high precision shot it's acceptable. Not ideal, but not insane. Just err strongly on the side of not taking shots instead of taking them. I was a resident looking for meat, not trophies, so if I came home empty handed it's not like I had 10 grand invested in the trip.

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:
It's an acceptable cartridge if you use it within it's limitations which are considerable.

I don’t know for sure but I think your words are going to get missed in this thread.

So will a lot of other people's. That's all I have to say on the subject anyway. It's an acceptable cartridge used within it's limitations and, no, I never head shot an elk with a Win Trapper 30/30 because it was barely a 2MOA rifle and those mountains have a lot of wind. Close in boiler room or not at all.

You know the bit of the front range where you sometimes almost get blown clean off I-5 between Pueblo and Springs? Not a good place for low probability shots with any rifle because of the winds. Past 75 yards would be silly.

I don’t think you and I have any real differences in opinion here. Wind will knock the ability out of any and all cartridges.

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
<SNIP>

As edited above, and I believe you'd agree with me. In good conditions within acceptable range and not trying for a high precision shot it's acceptable. Not ideal, but not insane. Just err strongly on the side of not taking shots instead of taking them. I was a resident looking for meat, not trophies, so if I came home empty handed it's not like I had 10 grand invested in the trip.

Tom, I don’t know were we are falling of the tracks here but I don’t disagree with you on many if any of the points you are making.

You were meat hunting, not hunting a trophy, and you were a resident hunter, hunting an area you knew, the same as me. We were not paying $$$$ to hunt here. Tom, I don’t think we have any real problem between the two of us here.

In the united Kingdom the 30-30 is in its normal loading ILLEGAL for any use on any deer. Not only is it deficient on velocity and muzzle energy, but I doubt that on many estates where it is required, many rifles chambered for it would pass the 3" at 100 Yds grouping test.

But, with its limitations, like the old British .300 Sherwood and .375 Holland and Holland (not the Magnum, the "other" one) I am sure it is effective in trained hands for its purpose. Just. With little or no margin of error.

No problems Mick

Just sometimes things get lagged in the editing process. I reckon we agree on this one. A missed opportunity just meant I'd go back next weekend.

My original post was aimed at people that don’t live in elk country but would someday save up the hard-earned money to make that one trip to elk country to hunt a trophy animal. Hell I can’t afford to hunt in Wyoming any more and it’s only an hour away.

All I’m saying is don’t under-gun yourself with a 30-30 or for that matter a 257 Bob.

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:
No problems Mick

Just sometimes things get lagged in the editing process. I reckon we agree on this one. A missed opportunity just meant I'd go back next weekend.

I shot a Big Mule in New Mexico one year using a 7MM RM in the Back of the shoulder area from BEHIND . Broke it's spine and tore out half a lung It never took another step . The only reason I shot it from that angle , I was dead tired after dogging it for near 5 Hr. I couldn't get ahead of it nor to the side of it . Believe me I TRIED . The shot was just over 400 Yd. I spent what was left of daylight gutting and hanging it up in a tree . Spent the night about 100 Yd away from it . Dam Mountain lions !, I'll stay 200 yd. away next time .

People who say more Deer an Elk have been taken with a 30/30 than any or all other caliber combined May or May not be correct . Don't know or care .

What I do know back in those days there were far more of them and they were a hell of a lot closer when they were shot .

Shoot Straight Know Your target . ...

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
In the united Kingdom the 30-30 is in its normal loading ILLEGAL for any use on any deer. Not only is it deficient on velocity and muzzle energy, but I doubt that on many estates where it is required, many rifles chambered for it would pass the 3" at 100 Yds grouping test.

But, with its limitations, like the old British .300 Sherwood and .375 Holland and Holland (not the Magnum, the "other" one) I am sure it is effective in trained hands for its purpose. Just. With little or no margin of error.

Thanks, I find that interesting.

MickinColo:

Yah, family friend by North of Victor, MT that took an elk with his .257 Bob Improved the other weeks ago did it on his property where he's lived since before I was born up there. Let's just say I'm firmly middle aged. Think he's hunted that piece since '66 at least. He tells people visiting from out of state to hunt his land to bring a .300 Win or .270 at the very least unless they don't mind looking at lots of elk they shouldn't shoot at.

I pass up all kindsa things thanks to the beauty of the Texas Super Combo $64 license which gives me a way different attitude than people that paid $$$$ to come down to Texas for one of those B&C hopeful hunts. Was the same in Colorado when I lived there. Here I could fill my ticket on the Combo license out the kitchen window if I wanted to.

As a non-resident now of CO, if I were to go back up to the old stomping grounds for an elk weekend I'd take one of my .300 Mags, Win, Norma, or H&H but one of them, probably two of the three just in case. Sure gets expensive when you don't live there anymore. Just looked it up, over 500 bucks for a bull now as a non-resident vs 50 bones resident.

MickinColo:

quote:

T30-30 - The most typical modern factory loads use a 150 grain bullet at a muzzle velocity (MV) of 2390 fps or a 170 grain bullet at a MV of 2200 fps.

England, Wales and Northern Ireland

For deer of any species a minimum calibre of .240 inches (.236 inches in Northern Ireland) and a minimum muzzle energy of 1,700 foot pounds is the legal requirement. In Northern Ireland the minimum bullet weight is 100 grains.

Scotland

For deer of any species the bullet must weigh at least 100 grains AND have a minimum muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second AND minimum muzzle energy of 1,750 foot pounds, or, for roe deer the bullet must weigh at least 50 grains AND have a minimum muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second AND a minimum muzzle energy of 1,000 foot pounds.

I stand corrected, illegal in Scotland, but very definitely legal in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

It is, of course, the 30 Remington, 32 Remington and .32-40 that don't make the muzzle energy.

Other US cartridges that are effectively "prohibited" are 25-20 and 25-35. And...the 38-55 and 45-70.

444 Marlin with the "traditional" 240 grain bullet at 2,400 fps would be legal in England, Wales and Norther Ireland but illegal in Scotland.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:

Other US cartridges that are effectively "prohibited" are (...) and 45-70.

That makes me giggle at the rule makers. Sure has killed a lot of big game for being "too little".

If I were to hunt over there, a trap door .45-70 would make every bit as much sense as one of the Sniders or Martinis in the safes.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
MickinColo:

quote:

The most typical modern factory loads use a 150 grain bullet at a muzzle velocity (MV) of 2390 fps or a 170 grain bullet at a MV of 2200 fps.

England, Wales and Northern Ireland

For deer of any species a minimum calibre of .240 inches (.236 inches in Northern Ireland) and a minimum muzzle energy of 1,700 foot pounds is the legal requirement. In Northern Ireland the minimum bullet weight is 100 grains.

Scotland

For deer of any species the bullet must weigh at least 100 grains AND have a minimum muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second AND minimum muzzle energy of 1,750 foot pounds, or, for roe deer the bullet must weigh at least 50 grains AND have a minimum muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second AND a minimum muzzle energy of 1,000 foot pounds.

I stand corrected, illegal in Scotland, but very definitely legal in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

It is, of course, the 30 Remington, 32 Remington and .32-40 that don't make the muzzle energy.

Other US cartridges that are effectively "prohibited" are 25-20 and 25-35. And...the 38-55 and 45-70.

444 Marlin with the "traditional 24o grain bullet at 2,400 fps would be legal in England, Wales and Norther Ireland but illegal in Scotland.

Thank you Enfield,

That information is more than just interesting it’s informative.

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:
MickinColo:

Yah, family friend by North of Victor, MT that took an elk with his .257 Bob Improved the other weeks ago did it on his property where he's lived since before I was born up there. Let's just say I'm firmly middle aged. Think he's hunted that piece since '66 at least. He tells people visiting from out of state to hunt his land to bring a .300 Win or .270 at the very least unless they don't mind looking at lots of elk they shouldn't shoot at.

I pass up all kindsa things thanks to the beauty of the Texas Super Combo $64 license which gives me a way different attitude than people that paid $$$$ to come down to Texas for one of those B&C hopeful hunts. Was the same in Colorado when I lived there. Here I could fill my ticket on the Combo license out the kitchen window if I wanted to.

As a non-resident now of CO, if I were to go back up to the old stomping grounds for an elk weekend I'd take one of my .300 Mags, Win, Norma, or H&H but one of them, probably two of the three just in case. Sure gets expensive when you don't live there anymore. Just looked it up, over 500 bucks for a bull now as a non-resident vs 50 bones resident.

Tom,

I’m sure we’ll find something to argue about later but for now,, Merry Christmas. I hope things are good for you this coming year.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

I’m sure we’ll find something to argue about later but for now,, Merry Christmas. I hope things are good for you this coming year.

Maybe we won't. Cheers anyway and likewise on the seasons wishes.

isn,t the "up the tube shot" also referred to as a "texas heart shot"

I don't hunt the dark timber we have in Colorado but here is an interesting article from the 2006 elk season.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/recreation_column...N_85_5174117,00.html

Enfield
Wow..as to accuracy my old Marlin 336 with nothing more than a trigger job and good handloads shot 3/4" at 100yds with a Williams peep sight! I have seen a few 30-30's that were very accurate.
I have seen a heck of a lot of game taken with it (Deer, Bear, and Moose)and have shot several deer with it also. I never bothered with factory ammo much as I was under the impression that most of it lacked the penetration I wanted. So I loaded the 170 gr Speer flat nose bullets in mine and they worked flawlessly.
In our coastal B.C. area a fella named Turner carried a MOD 94 30-30 every day for most of his life as his Bear gun (coastal grizzly) it never failed him! Mind you we're talking very close range.
Used within its limitations 150 yds or less it gets the job done. I don't believe I ever shot an animal any farther than 100 yds with mine.
As an Elk rifle I see no problem as long as the shots are close and no stern shots attempted.

It has been a dream of mine to hunt elk with a .30-30 for a few years now. I agree if you are paying for Non-Resident tags why would you want to be limited by the .30-30 Win. I just happen to live where I can hunt them every year and why not give it a shot.

I agree as well that you should limit your shots to less than 150 yards. I just don't see why 170 grain flat point will not do the job as well as any bullet out there. I wouldn't want to try and break a lot of bone buy it should be able to penetrate at least one shoulder.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
If ,Ray's analysis is worth while, and I think it is, IS IT PRUDENT TO INTENTIONALLY CARRY A 30-30 WHEN HUNTING ELK?

A few years back, my hunting partner fell on his 30-06 and bent the scope, lots of slick ice where we were hunting. His choices were limited, but there was a 30-30 with 4X scope in the truck. We changed tactics and locations, ended up with a yearling elk at close range. The bullet is among his souvenirs, found just under the skin on the off side.

I agree with Mick on this one 100%! If you're making the trip out here, with all the costs and hassles...dont cut yourself short on the 1 tool that can truly make or break your dream hunt. Heck I live in CO (just around the corner from Mick it looks like lol) and I STILL would choose something else even though I'm very familiar with the country and animals I hunt. I've been hunting elk for 10 years, have had the chance to shoot 3 times, and have only taken 2 home. I'm a meat hunter, so if I see something legal, its going down. Saying that, I choose larger calibers with good bullets because I want to take that elk down no matter the angle (minus the texas heart shot) and I shoot for shoulders to anchor them ASAP. I've had to help track animals where we hunt (551 at the Cont. Divide near Sargaents) and its NOT fun.

You DO know the area Mick

Long Branch is one of my favorite stomping grounds, first place I always start as the rest of the party usually goes up to the top of the mine road and works down toward Marshall. My two elk however, came a few miles to the west, back towards Owen's Creek and Dutchman's creek. The one I put down in Owen's....2.5 miles from camp....as the crow flies LMAO! We had to drive all the way to Doyleville, go up towards Needles Creek Res, and THEN take the jeep trail 5 miles back in to get her. At least she died (read- slid down the hill, part of the way with me on her) next to the trail!

If you know the area, maybe you know the Monarch Valley Ranch thats about 5 miles down Hwy 50 from Sargaents to the west? Its on the left hand side of the road. Thats where we have 2 family cabins, and base camp from there

Gotcha! I know which direction you speak of! Me and the bro took a wrong turn on a logging road one day and ended up on the backside like you're talking about. Well, backside to us lol since our hunting starts from H50, on the opposite side of Baldy

roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
roger

I think we’re through Roger. I’ll delete my posts that cruised off coarse. And maybe MileHigh will delete his last 2 posts.

I don’t think the use of a 30-30 on elk is a “white hot passion†in one way or the other with most people. It shoots bullets that have enough weight, and with enough velocity to make a kill at 150 yards. Most 30-30s are level action (Yes I know there were/are some bolt action rifles chamber in the 30-30) rifles with open iron sites. 150 yards is a long but doable shot with open sites. There isn’t one American hunter that’s 50+ years old that hasn’t had some kind of experience with the 30-30, hands on or from observation.

quote:

bartsche

You have told me were you sit but you haven’t told me where you stand. What are your feelings about the 30-30?

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

quote:

bartsche

You have told me were you sit but you haven’t told me where you stand. What are your feeling about the 30-30?

The 30-30 is a classic but not one that I would intensionally use to go after elk.

Having also lived and hunted in the mountains of Colorado I have shund the 30-30 as my deer rifle of choice. Although a large percentage of animals taken were less than 150 yds often enough the 200 to 300 yd. shot was needed. That is not the 30-30s forte. roger

Thank you

When I lived in New Mexico, most the guys on the pueblo I knew (other than the ones with Savage 99s) used 30-30s. They were not really operating under any real time constraints and really like the 170 grainers.

quote:

Originally posted by 390ish:
When I lived in New Mexico, most the guys on the pueblo I knew (other than the ones with Savage 99s) used 30-30s. They were not really operating under any real time constraints and really like the 170 grainers.

I hear you.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr.K:
People who say more Deer an Elk have been taken with a 30/30 than any or all other caliber combined May or May not be correct . Don't know or care .

What I do know back in those days there were far more of them and they were a hell of a lot closer when they were shot.

Whether or not there are more animals out there or whether the 30-30 has taken more animals than any other cartridge are moot points.

Some biologists say there are MORE animals now in some areas than at the turn of the century. I have no idea if this is correct or not. What I do know is that there are a heck of a lot more HUNTERS out there than 100 years ago. Not to mention housing developments built out in wilderness areas, etc.

Back around the turn of the century, before all the Magnums, WSM’s and Super-Duper what nots; the 30-30 was the most powerful big game cartridge many hunters could afford. Plus most hunters were out “hunting in their backyard†so to speak, not many hours or several states away. Shots were a lot closer, for the most part because hunters were a little more than familiar with their surroundings and they knew their equipment.

Remember the saying about the man with only one gun knowing how to use it…

As I have said before, animals are not tougher today than they were 100 years ago and maybe the opposite is true. Hunters today, for the most part want “instant gratification†and will not take or simply do not have the time to spend weeks or months scouting a good hunting spot.

Next time you talk to your Grandfather or any hunter that is 75+ years old, ASK them about hunting, then LISTEN and they will tell you stories of waiting for DAYS for an animal to pass by their stakeout.
And I'm absolutely sure the 30-30 (or it's ballistic equivalent) will pop up in the conversation at least once.

Is it the optimum elk cartridge, no. Will it kill elk, most certainly.

Just my .02¢

Your results may vary…

I have helped cut up three elk killed with 30-30 rifles. One shot in the neck after a drive dropped, the next one hit in the butt also dropped but needed a finisher, the las was hit in the spine at over 300 yards via a lucky shot made by an almost blind old man. This elk was dead when we got there.No I won't hunt with one but you can.

quote:

Originally posted by rickt300:
I have helped cut up three elk killed with 30-30 rifles. One shot in the neck after a drive dropped, the next one hit in the butt also dropped but needed a finisher, the las was hit in the spine at over 300 yards via a lucky shot made by an almost blind old man. This elk was dead when we got there.No I won't hunt with one but you can.

I will, but only inside 75 yards. Depends on where you are hunting and whether or not you have a big investment in the cost of the hunt and are willing to pass up shots if they are iffy. Makes more sense to me than bowhunting elk and a lot of people do that.