I am looking at buying a new rifle this winter to hunt whitetail, mule deer , and elk. I know which rifle I am going to purchase I just haven't decided which caliber. I want a flat shooting, hard hitting round that is easy to handload for. I thought about a 7mmSTW but do not know how hard it recoils so I am looking for some other opinions.

You should get some good response on this I would say 30 cal. with 7mm 2nd.

Since your in West Virginia most of the hunting is going to be deer. And this is where those threads fall apart that claim that the 30-06 is best for nothing.

The 30-06 (once again) is the best choice. Get a bolt rifle with a 22" bbl and your all set.

To get maximum benefit out of a 7STW you are going to need at least a 26" barrel or you will just be buning powder with no good effect. Go for a big .30!

If you are taller than 5'10" and wear a shirt sleeve longer than 33" get a .300 WinMag but are more vertically challenged you might want to try one of the new short .300 magnuns like the Winchester or Remington. Can't go wrong with a .30!

Carefull DB Bill, Elmer Keith is watching.

Damn right Elmer is watching and he is not amused. Use enough gun, for deer that should be at least a .338. Big bullets, properly launched make for dead game and satisfying hunting, anything less is varmint shooting. I wonder what Elmer used on prairie dogs?

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If Elmer didn't say it, it probably ain't true.

333-OKH If Elmer said it probably wasn't true.

I like the .260 Remington. It has light enough recoil that I can use in varmint shootin', and I have Elmer's blessing to use the 160 grain bullets on Any North American game. Don't believe me, read his article on the 6.5x54 in the June 1950 issue of American Rifleman.

The big sevens(RUM,STW etc.) are not all around rifles. They are specialized long range rifles that work well under certain circumstances. In fact under most situations they don't "fit" at all. Define all around are we talking whitetails to moose? Then a 30-06 or 300 win mag beat the hell out of the fat long sevens. If we are talking about a rifle to be used in all types of terrain and within reasonable distances (400 yards) then the fat sevens are long, loud and need specialized bullets to do common everyday hunting chores (deer at fifty yards) and for elk and moose the thirties have the advantage of bullet weight and velocities with this weight compatible with good bullet performance. Not only that but both of my thirties are easily loaded down to take care of the light work, not so with a big fat seven.

7mmRemMag or a .300 somethingorother or a 338 winny.

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When in doubt, do a nuclear strike.

I think you should get two rifles, W.V. deer and western elk are so far apart in weight and ranges hunted that any one rifle you choose is going to be overkill for deer at 100 yards or less or not enough to risk on an expensive elk hunt where your only shot may be less than the perfect angle.

The 7MM Rem Mag, has been a excellent performer for me.

I've never been a fan of an "all around rifle" because I don't believe one exists. If you must own just one rifle, and you can afford one, get a Thompson Center Encore. Then you can just get different barrels based on what you want to hunt.

If you don't want a single shot, I would suggest either a .338-06 or if you don't hand load, a .35 Whelen. Either of these will work for what you intend to hunt. Just in case you don't know, a .338-06 is a hand loader proposition uless you want to spend $50.00/box for Weatherby ammo.

260 Rem!

For a one-rifle battery I'll second the suggestion for a 30-06, 2:nd choice a 7 mm Rem Mag. But why not two rifles? Double the fun

[This message has been edited by Wachtel (edited 12-22-2001).]

Now this is from a guy who truly loves his .30-06 and is an absolute .25-06 fanatic!

The 7mm Rem Mag is just about the idea "all round" gun. I've used them on everything from groundhogs and coyotes to elk and bear.

It's near, if not on, the top of the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundations annual elk hunter survey every year.

It ain't a "real" magnum though. It just wears a belt and pretends to be. If ya handload, ignore the belt and headspace off the shoulder.

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Jesus is the reason for the season.

I have owned all of the calibers mentioned in this thread and based on what the originators criteria and what he wants to hunt my choice would be 280rem. with handloads or some of the hotter loads offered by federal,rem.etc.

Boy here we go I'm going to get lambasted for this but, I use my 308 winnie for whitetail mulie and elk with great results. It also does just fine on bears, coyotes, Pdogs and Osama if the SOB shows up around here!

It isn't the biggest stick on the block, but it kills stuff dead every time.
I also wouldn't hesitate to put my 338 winnie in there as a all around rifle, but I think the 308, or 30-06 are the best all arounds there are JMHO X-Ring

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Praise the Lord, and pass the ammunition!

308 Norma...but only if you're very serious about handloading. You won't find it on the shelf of the normal sporting goods store.

In terms of power it's well suited for the range of game you specified.

Perhaps it's best trait relates to handloading. I find, as well as many others to which I've spoken, that it is extremely forgiving compared to other calibers mentioned in terms of variation of loads. They all seem to go into the same point of impact.

It's basically a 338 Win necked to 308 and while many say it's equivalent to a 300 Win it has slightly less capacity but a much longer neck which should be attractive to the handloader.

Anyway, another option.

Reed

Good Grief Reed. The .308 Norma is a has been. We all waited for the .300 Magnum from Winchester after the .338 came out and there were .30-.338's already on the target range being used for 1000 yds.

Then Norma beat WW to the market with the .308 NM. It's a good design but Norma did not have the marketing power to make it fly. Then WW came out with the .300 Win Mag. for the same length actions.

The topic was a first, all around cartridge. The .308 NM unless given to him almost free is about the worst idea except for the fact that it performs well.

But no ill feelings. I know you like the cartridge. Like I said it's a good design (except for the belt).

I'd give serious consideration,to building a general purpose rifle,in 280Ackley. It offers capable performance(140's at 3200fps),an extra poke in the magazine(may comfort some)and is legendary for accuracy.

She'll do well with a 24" tube,is moderate in recoil and is quite versatile in application.

As further comfort,she's a step or two,off the beaten path.............

[This message has been edited by Big Stick (edited 12-24-2001).]

for this you have to get an elk rifle and make it work for the smaller animals.for an all around gun you have to cover the upper end then you wont have any trouble.i aint ever hunted elk but if i was going i would want at least a 30 cal 180 at 3000.

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SPEED KILLS

[This message has been edited by Eric Leonard (edited 12-24-2001).]

Most improved cartridges have no more than entertainment value. On top of that the .280 Remington, while a good cartridge will fade away now that there are so many similar ones.

The 30-06 is such a obvious choice that some here are trying to dance around that fact.

I had a 06 rechambered to the Ackley Impr. version. It was entetaining but that's all. At least I have a popular cartridge.

I shoot quite a few Improved cartridges and have never been less than impressed. The 22K-Hornet,223Ackley,22-250Ackley,243Ackley,250Ackley,25-06Ackley,300H&H Improved(several variants)and 375H&HAckley.

I've found them user friendly,superbly accurate,of increased performance and I rather like the design as a whole. Certainly,they are not for everyone(as nothing is) and as with anything else,there are naysayers.

The 30-06 and 308Win are two cartridges foremost in my mind,that I'd not Improve. Neither can be made "fast",without drastic case capacity increase. Neck either of those two down though and their Improved versions simply shine.

There are an endless supply of sound choices. Suit yourself,as that is all that really matters.....................

But today a Improved cartridge is a solution to a non problem. Long ago we had rifles chambered for the like of the .22 Hornet and the .219 Zipper for instance. Now improving these two really does something. So old Lysle Kilbourn had a good idea, it made work for himself. In the case of the Zipper an excellent cartridge was made. In the case of the Hornet it remained hopeless.

So today if you "improve" a chamber you have to fire extra bbl wearing shots just to get cases. Then you have to work up a load with meagar data.

Of course compared to real problems these Improved chambers are a hoot. But to say they are "accurate" infers that the orginal is not or is less acccurate. Not so. And if you can improve a .280 Remington to a worthwhile degree why not the 06?

I met Lysle Kilbourn at the Lyman Gunsite.

[This message has been edited by Don Martin29 (edited 12-25-2001).]

Tough to beat a 30/06 for "all around" use. Plenty of punch out to as far as one should shoot game. Cartridges are available everywhere, in a lot of weights.

Don,

I disagree and for a couple reasons.

The K-Hornet is an excellent conversion. Brass life,velocity and accuracy,all benefit. Headspacing the K's shoulder,is much better than headspacing the rim in my opinion. Brass deviates horribly,uniformity in rim thickness is the real problem,the shoulder is easier and "better" in my estimation. I've built 5 K's,all were much more accurate,after the conversion. I attribute that,partly to the superior case design and the balance to a well cut chamber.

When I say more accurate,that has been my experience. One,you are not dealing with the mass produced sloppy chambers,of the typical Factory rifle(certainly some are better than others). Two,when rechambering,I opt to have the action trued up,that too,is an accuracy aid. In conjunction,those qualities,make accuracy easier to yield in my opinion/experience.

Most my working Hunting Rifles,have 100pcs of brass,designated to their individual barrel. It is a simple matter to form 100 cases,during initial break in. Depending upon intensity of the round,it can usually be done in one day. If a man prefers,he can buy preformed Improved cases in any chambering he may desire. Several outfits,cater to that market expressly. I prefer to form,with bullets. Shooting doesn't bother me,certainly not fire-forming.

The '06 can be Improved and is fairly common. That wasn't my point. My point was,the little you gain,does not lend it a new lease on life. It's still the 30-06 and no Rocketship.

In the K-Hornet,I favor Win296 and the 33gr V-Max at 3450fps. Brass life is excellent,accuracy stellar and it adds new life/capabilities to the cartridge. Especially,when weighed against it's traditional 45gr offering. That is my favorite Crow Cartridge.

The 223Ackley,is my favorite 22 centerfire. It will push 40gr bullets at 4000fps,with H-335. It has replaced all my bigger 22's,for general purpose use.

The 22-250Ackley,will do what the Swift does,with cheaper brass that lasts longer. Mine are both twisted 14",I lean on the 50's at warp speed,as a Play Toy.

The 243Ackley,is hard to beat,for a serious long range rifle. It will shoot the mid-weights at very impressive speeds. The 85grXLC at 3500fps,out of a 23" barrel,is an excellent Deer cartridge. The 87gr V-Max at the same speed,is a good Coyote gun. Nice BC,flat trajectory and good energy retention. It isn't too bad in the wind,either. For scattering chunks,the 75gr V-Max is sinister,at 3750fps.

The 250Ackley,see use in an XP-100. It is a very nice cartridge,that is user friendly and capable of superb accuracy in that role. Great Deer whacker too.

The 25-06Ackley,has me holstering my 257Wby's. I shoot 62.0grs of Re-22,out of a 24" barrel. It propels a 100gr XLC at 3600fps. I built it as a lightweight,general purpose Hunting Rifle. Exceptionally accurate,very flat shooting and ultra soft shooting. I can't praise this cartridge enough.

My favorite 300H&H Improved,is the 300Super. My shorter,26" barreled one(the other is 30"),will make 3450fps with the 165grXLC/Re-19. It sees a lot of use and I rely heavily upon it.

I built two 375H&H Ackley's. Both are fairly short barreled (22" and 23"). They both push a 270gr X at over 2800fps,with Re-15,very accurately. They both will go faster,but that is where accuracy is best,so I came back to that speed.

Some guys like the Improved cartridges,some guys don't. I happen to like them very much and am going to build a 7-08Ackley after the Holidays...........

Like any thread along this line- you will get just as many different choices as you get responses. I chose the 280Rem based on a few things. #1- its not an 06. #2- I can reload for any type of situation- from dogs to moose. #3- its still not an 06. #4- I like things my way- and the 280 is not owned by everybody and their brother- when you speak with another 280 owner- your on the same sneaky page- WE KNOW STUFF OTHER GUYS DONT. THE 280 is all you'll ever need. (if you only needed one- of course). I'm in my early 30's and just finding Jack O'Conner in my life- and have read somewhere that he was very- very fond of the 280- even more so than his beloved 270, butI dont recall where I've read this. Anyway- to each his own- and to all 280 onwers- great sneaky choice... Happy Holidays to ALL,, and to Osama ..click ...click ...BOOM- GOOD NIGHT

Big Stick,

I did all of that stuff 25 years ago and came to the conclusion that it's better not to forget a candy bar or your compass. Those cartridges are so much fun to dream up but in reality everything you mentioned can be surpassed by the next larger factory cartridge. That has been my point all along but I cannot deny your in dreamland.

In particular your .223 improved is not optimum! For instance the 40 gr bullet at 4000 fps has no real practical application. The low ballistic coefficient causes more wind drift and a loss of energy where it's most needed which is at long range. Now my .219 Improved Zipper which used to be a R-2 Lovell is a real improvement on the standard .219. It shoots a 50gr bullet at 3,600 perhaps more from a real rifle nut. It's a nice "improvement" on a classic highwall.

I had a .375 made up on a 22" bbl too with the improved chamber from whatever Douglas's reamer is. Now I wish it was the standard cartridge. But it's no big deal.

All of those guns you made up special like mine are all worth less. Try to sell them and you will get a blank look. I feel the same way about mod's on Corvettes. Only they work. "Improved" cartridges don't.

RE:I wonder what Elmer used on prairie dogs?

Probably His old Sharps "turkey shoot" rifle.

Don,

First,I don't build rifles that suit ME,so I can sell them at a later date.

I savvy what you say,regarding performance,but you dismiss the obvious. Hard to beat 223 brass,at $20 per 1000pcs. I weigh that criteria. Same goes the 308 based rounds and it's inexpensive parent brass. Magazine box confines,are another facet of opting to Improve.

The 223Ackley and 40's,has no "practical" application,to YOU. I dig 40's,for punishing vermin. A 300yd zero,requires 2.2" height,at 100yds. It drops but 8" at 400yds. That pard,is not typical 223 performance. It is a SERIOUS 400yd combo.

When I want to shoot long range,in extreme conditions,I use a rifle for that job. I've several 22 ceneterfires,twisted 9". The 22-250AI even twisted 14",is pretty good in the wind,as are both my CHeetahs. The 243Ackley of course better yet. The 25-06Ackley no slouch either.

I know what I like and why. In many instances,the Improved cartridge yields a superior Mousetrap. If it doesn't interest you,do not do it.

Really,pretty easy...............

My ideal choice is the 577 Tyranasaur, it will kill anything on this planet, why would you need anything else?

My 308 Norma took a bit of a beating there. Say what you want about it's history compared to the release of other cartridge combinations but I don't care a lick about any of that. Like the man said "except for the fact that it performs well" about says it all if you ask me. I'll put it up against any that have been mentioned, especially the 300 Win, RUM, etc., because it does perform so well. Isn't that what we're after?

Again, that's all being said based on the requirement of handloading as Norma factory ammo is very expensive.

Reed

Big Stick,

First of all Merry Christmas. You seem like a good fellow to have sitting across the isle on a flight (as long as we have a stewardess to calm us down every 10 minutes).

As I said, I am 25 years ahead of you. Have fun.

BTW I designed a .22 to be like a .243 similar to what you mention with the 1-9 twists. I did it when the PPC craze began and made the aspect ratio low. It's a mag case (I use 6.5 Rem Mags) and it's 2.000" long with the standard shoulder and taper. No improvement is possible here. The twist is 1-9 and it's on a pre-64 70. I got some 88 gr bullets from Utah that are sort of partitions.

I shot it so much that the throat is eroded. But the 88 gr still shoots.

The chamber dwg calls for it to headspace on the shoulder.

The net of this cartridge was just fun. A standard .243 would have been about the same.

Be well.

How about one of the new "short magnums"?

For me, the rifle and optics are more important than caliber and I really like the lightweight rifles. Only time will tell if Remington or Winchester will end up dominating, but all you need to do is buy about a dozen boxes of loaded ammunition when you buy your rifle and you will be set for many years of good hunting.

My personal wish rifle is a Stainless Synthetic model with a high quality 2-7 scope in the 300 WSM caliber. Use the 150 grain loads for deer and 180 or 200 grain loads for the bigger stuff. Even if there is not much of a load selection right now, before long there will be. If you really want some load not available off the shelf, just load your own.

Although I am really fond of the .260 Rem, I would say that the .338 Winnie possesses the quintessential qualities of the best all-around cartridge.

I do not really believe in "all around" rifles, but I would say for elk pick the largest rifle you can shoot well, and use quality bullets. My most-used elk rifle now is a .338 Win. with Nosler partition bullets. I have also shot a few mule deer (no whitetails in this part of the country) with it, and probably had less meat damage than with a .243. My personal minimum for elk is a .270 with premium bullets. I guide for deer, elk, antelope, and mountain lion, so I get to see lots of calibers used. There are no "magic" calibers. Make a good hit with a good bullet and the animal will die. I have a friend who has killed a lot of elk with the .243, but he lives in elk country, shoots well, and can go another day if he doesn't get the shot he needs. If you come west all the way from West Virginia, you may wish you had a rifle capable of taking an elk from a less-than-ideal angle. If you can afford two rifles, I would recommend a .270/280 for deer/antelope size animals, and a .300/.338 for elk.

I've see some good sized elk poleaxed with the 6.5 Rem. Mag. shootin' 129 Hornadys. Anybody who thinks the .270 is the minimum hasn't given any consideration to the 6.5s. I used a 6.5x57 and only recovered one 140 grain Nosler out of 5 meat elk. Maybe if I was huntin' on public land in Washington and there were a hundred guys in the bushes waitin' to tag my Big Bull Roosevelt, I'd think hard about a .338. But then I've got a .50 caliber muzzleloader so maybe I wouldn't.

Don,

I pretty much like anything that is "good". However,my idea of good,may differ from someone elses.

There are different ways to scratch an itch and I try very hard,to remain open-minded. I realize my notions vary from the norm,but I very much know what I like.

It is always interesting for me,to read or hear,somebody's conflicting opinion. Often,that is how a guy learns.

So I understand your commenting,on having the 25yr head start. At the same time,I wonder what you may have missed? Especially with the advent of today's superior propellants and projectiles? That isn't a demeaning commentary,rather a curious reflection.

The cartridge you describe,sounds like an equivelant to the 22-284,shortened .170"? It is still in vogue,with long,fast-twisted barrels,VLD projectiles and slow powders. Though it doesn't wear a belt and boasts a 35degree shoulder,it's largely the same animal you mention.

I do agree,the 243Ackley is pretty hard to beat(grin)...............

Short308,
With elk in the mix i would take the 338Win loaded with a premium bullet, providing you can shoot it well. If not, the 30/06 with a heavy premium bullet. Just my opinion