While I have seen a few threads on the new 300 and 338 RCMs.. and people are asking why???

I guess they aren't interested or are not paying attention to the new Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor.. a designed 6.5 to evidently cycle thru an AR... with pretty impressive velocities for the case size...

http://www.hornady.com/images/2008_sell_sheets/6-5_Creedmoor.pdf

They are also launching a 120 grain A Max! That ought to be a good seller to the 6.5 bore crowd! LIke seafire for instance....

they evidently also doing some V Max tips on the 22 Win Mags to compete with the 17 HMRs....
and did anyone else notice.. that 17 HMR prices never came down to 22 Win Mag prices.. but 22 Win Mag prices have been raised to 17 HMR levels tho??? so about time we got some performance increases for it...Maybe ... will have to wait and see on prices.... which have gotten outrageous!

Thanks for the info Seafire.Ive got a couple of 6.5's one of which just love a steady diet of 120,s. Thanks again.

6.5 creedmore eh? 6.5x48 to compete with 6.5x47 lapua

Factory ammo, cheaper brass, and a tad more horsepower to drive 140's for 1000 yd competition that some drive with high pressures to get max speed with max accuracy, also fits in bolts and AR platforms for those interested.

I am not in a 'special group' but it has some pros. I still think the 47 is what I will go with for MY use. Would never turn my nose up at the 6.5C and applaud Hornady for a practical round, they had a guy testing it/designing it for a year, yes VERY similar to the 47, Hornady's version/answer to it. Funny, Lapua seemed to copy 6x47 Swiss Match and bump to 6.5. RUAG folks NOT happy at shot show from what I could see. Such is life in the ever changing world of 'building a better/or better selling mouse trap' with your brand/logo.

Profits have benefited us shooters with more options, we can take them or leave them as we please.

120 amax would be a nice varmint/deer round/ and paper. Comparable and hopefully I expect cheaper than Nosler b tips and similar accuracy, perhaps better, but likely less penetration.

Nope, not a creedmore. Its an old converted 6.5 jap..Now a 6.5x257.
It loves 120's out to about 200yds.Past that it favors the 140's.
I dont have any pictures to display. Probibly just as well ,its plain jane.Quite possibly the "ugliest" gun I own. However, and this is the just plain truth , Its hands down the most accurate Rifle I have or have ever had,inside 300yds.



"If winning isnt important , why keep score ?"

"State of the art propellant technology..." - Another way of saying, "Don't try these velocities at home, guys..."

As long as you 'lay em in there' where they need to go, a few fps off the 28" test bbl velocities won't matter. Just don't tell the deer, they gossip you know and the word will get out!

I truly think this 6.5 Creedmore as the 260 will be an excellent whitetail round as well as coyotes.

Is anybody taking this round seriously? If so enlighten me. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Is anybody taking this round seriously? If so enlighten me. roger

Well Roger Dodger...

If you look at the other thread where someone posted the drawings of the 6.5 Creedmoor and then take a look at the dimensions of the 250 Savage out of any of your reload manuals...

All Hornady is peddling is a 6.5/250 Savage, while modifying the length just a hair and the shoulder angle just a hair.. so they can act like they have a new cartridge...

Not really much different than what was done with the 17 Rem Fireball and the 17 Mach 4...

So is there a place for a 250 Savage necked up to 6.5 cal.. yeah, I can see a market.. specialized.. but if it cycles in ARs, and since it is not based on the Russian 7.62 x 39 like the Grendel is.. I think that is a wise move.. they didn't reinvent the wheel.. they are just catering to the AR market which is a good move...

and I know you love the 250 Savage... soooooo's......

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Is anybody taking this round seriously? If so enlighten me. roger

Well Roger Dodger...

If you look at the other thread where someone posted the drawings of the 6.5 Creedmoor

I did before posting. roger

Well I know of your love for the 250 Savage.. so it would appear you'd love one that had bullet weights available from 85 to 160 grains...since we are talking a bore difference of .007...

I'd think you would like this round....

wrong assumption on my part???

quote:

I'd think you would like this round....

wrong assumption on my part???

If the neck were longer and you could use ..243 or even .308 cases untrimmed, I would like it better. I have designed such a wild cat and have been thinking of getting one made. I think now I will just shine it on. Mine would make as much sense as the one under scrutiny. I'm also sure that someone in Alaska would let me know how silly it would be. roger

Unless I change my mind at the last minute to 260 or 708, I see this round as fitting in a short action with 85-160gr giving me all the speed I want in a hunting rifle for my type of hunting. Looking at an 8" twist (will compensate for velocities that are said to equal or get VERY close (say 50fps) of a 260, probably doing a 6.5x47 Lapua due to the brass, but the Creedmore can hold a tad more powder, just a tad, it is about 48.5mm long I believe.

Seafire is right, and I have corresponded with someone who is doing an in-depth review of the hornady round, and HAS done the 47, and shoots 260 also in competition. For a 1 round fits all, i.e. AR, Bolt, etc. this Creedmore can do it all. Yes it will be a tad below 6.5x55 and 260, esp say 100-150 fps behind the AI versions, but accuracy is what I am in search of, and in a short action would win out a long action x55. I like mild rounds, think Bartsche of a 250AI bumped open another .07, and using fast twist shooting 140-160 grain bullets on the high side, or down to 85gr.

What is not to like? I'd go elk hunting just as quick with a creedmore or 47 as I would a 260 or 55se, and using a good bullet, placed well at under 300 yds, i.e. through lungs...125 partition, 129, 130 AB, or 140gr, I think you'd be eating steaks. I know 250s, 243s, and even 22-250 I hear have killed elk, but I honestly think a 6.5 might be on the low end to feel good about various angles, size animals, ranges, etc.

Not a laser speed ctg, nor BIG bore, just a mild mannered round with LOTS of flexibility, GREAT brass 47 esp. (Hornady should meet expectations in Creedmore) and supreme accuracy.

Those are the attributes I am after which is why I have used 6 and 7 BRs as much as I have and really enjoyed them.

By the way, the Lapua version was designed to best the 6BR at 300 yds and beyond, (6BR has won and beat 6.5-284's at 1,000 yds), the 47 has been used to 1k side by side 260's and others. Those guys push loads hard, but the brass can take it, and guys use long barrels and do very well. Oh, barrel life on 47 and Creedmore is better than larger rounds, another thing I like.

Power impresses me less than bug hole groups.

47 below:

http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/6mmbr/vpost?id=1056446

http://www.6mmhot.com/6mmHOT_Load_Info.html

Expect VERY similar performance, tad more speed on the hornady, just a hair, and cheaper brass. But as Seafire says, in the end, they seem VERY similar to the 6.5/250 or AI version.

Fjold( Frank) posted a link to an AR style camo'ed rig that Remington is planning to supposedly launch this coming year.. guess they are feeling left out of the AR market.. which is getting their attention...

But the pic of a Full Camo'ed AR from Remington, chambered in the 6.5 Creedmoor and maybe a 6mm Creedmoor available.. or simiar cartridge if they are going with the AR 15 platform over the AR 10 Platform...

Either one would be pretty darn cool for a varmint hunter that just can't live without a semi auto...

I still think a shortened old 25 Remington or a 6.5 version thereof.. would not be a bad decision in an AR....

quote:

Originally posted by 6.5BR:
Yes it will be a tad below 6.5x55

And to me that is it in a nut shell( what ever that means). a down loaded long throated 6.5 X 55 will equal or surpass this, bring nothing to the table cartridge. Had it been developed and introduced in 1954 it might have been a great Nato Military cartridge. I t wasn't It ain't! roger

Seafire,

Thanks for the news on the 120 A-Max in 6.5......that might open up nicely on 'roos at long range.........I've found the 120BT's are too hard and the bloody 'roos run around before falling over. Annoying, what.

Seafire,

I'll try the 90TNT's for sure

I use the 100BT's in my 264 on the 'roos and it really knocks them down

Bartsche,

I won't argue your point, just saying that I LIKE both new rounds, they FIT in a short action w/o having bullet seating issues (w/o intruding powder space) that a longer round might in a SA i.e. 260/160 gr, I could care less when my bullet hits a game (nor do the paper punchers care on impact velocity-using slippery HIGH BC bullets). If I wanted a long action or built a single shot, the 55 or 55 AI would be first to be looked at, but for my needs, I'd rather burn 8 less grains or so powder and increase bbl life, attain sufficient speeds for MY purpose, have super accuracy, and a bit less recoil, allowing me to focus even more on the shot. Less recoil NEVER hurts accuracy.

I like most all 6.5's, just a few more than others for my current needs-non magnums. I would not replace a good 55 or 260, but I AM planning on a 'build' using a SA and one of the new rounds is getting top consideration. To me, anything from 6-7mm, in a case from BR size to 308 size can do a LOT of good on paper, varmints, and deer to 400 yds with proper bullets/loads, and someone doing a good job behind the steering wheel.

If the military adopts any new round great, I think it will be an improvement as I believe it would be something in 6-6.5mm, and better than what is in most US soldiers hands now.

By the way, I sense you are critical of ANY new cartridge.......seems if you like the 6.5mm in a 55, and you like the 25 cal in a 250, then what is NOT to like about a 6.5/47 or 6.5 Creedmore? It seems to be a blend doesn't it? To knock either one, just because it does not measure 100% up to a swede is like saying why use a Swede when you can put a 6.5/300, or 6.5STW in the same long action? Yes, it is more, but sometimes for some people, LESS is MORE. There are pros to not redlining bullets to warp speeds, recoil, blast, barrel life, and accuracy area few things to consider IMHO. Let's just say I like 'balance' in a round.

Lastly, bullet performance is often more conducive to being good at a lower moderate speed than HYPER speeds.

I believe a modern rifle with top loads in a properly twisted 47 or creedmore, and heavy bullets can duplicate what the 6.5 MS built it's reputation on......and that isn't bad when you consider how much game was slayed long ago. I seem to recall Bell used it on elephants and maybe Charles Sheldon on game all over this continent-some big stuff, not to mention, didn't the Big Bullet Man, Elmer Keith have praise for the 54?

Gee, I know it was/is just a TAD shy of the 55 that was already out......but did it stop the 54 from doing it's thing? Not if one used proper shot placement. I see the 47 & Creedmore as very effective and efficient mid capacity 6.5's, giving benchrest accuracy and very low recoil.....

I realize they are not for everone, that is why Ford starting making cars other than Black in color.

Have a great day all.

quote:

Originally posted by 6.5BR:
Bartsche,

By the way, I sense you are critical of ANY new cartridge.

Perhaps. Really, all cartridges are lovely things. Just the idea that we are being presented with something new and wonderful rings foul.It is not that I'm totaly against these new cartridges, I just can not get excited over them.

Also a bullet leaving the barrel at a lower gas pressure and temperature with the same velocity makes sense. REF: loaded down 6.5 X 55

The 6.5 X 52 ( Carcano)** got a lot of use and scored highly on mule deer for a number of years. there is still an affection for this sporterized rifle and for the 6.5 X 54, it's slightly larger sister. ** If you would like to see this little gem send me your E-Mail address and I'll send you a couple pics.

There is definitly an aversion to short necks and magazines combined with shallow throats restricting you to light bullets or deminished potential performance of heavy for caliber bullets.

Now, if you think you would enjoy getting one of these 6.5s I hope you do and it lives up to your expectations. roger

Doesn't do much for me. If you read the fine print you'll see two things; velocities are from a "28 inch test barrel". What do you think you'll get in a 20 inch barreled AR platform. Might be alright for a 14-18 lb match rifle "space gun" but practical it isn't. Second, to get the advertised velocity they use the "new" powder technology that Hornady uses in it's light magnum loads. I can't afford factory ammo to shoot matches with as I've no sponsors other than myself. You won't duplicate those velocities with reloads. Actually you'll get pretty much the same velocities as with the current .260/6.5-308.

The big boys will be using it and no doubt winning (the big boys usually do anyway) but I'll still be plugging away with my M70 target in .308 and just enjoying myself.

Larry Gibson

Bartsche, MY 47 or Creedmore will NOT have a short throat I can assure you, I have ALL my custom guns throated to allow the heaviest bullet available, AND still hold the lightest ones enough while being close enough to lands for decent accuracy. AND I have seen/owned long throated 55's that shot 85's just fine. That is no concern.

I watched a guy take his 2-3000 dollar CUSTOM action rifle LONG heavy barrel in 6mm BRM (BR improved) and get NO gain in velocity burning 2-4 more grains of powder and guess what, my measly #1 Ruger custom bbl std. 6BR, OUTSHOT his rifle, 5 shots 100 yds. YES, day in day out his gun SHOULD outshoot mine, but point is, MORE powder is not ALWAYS better, or an improvement.

As to Larry's 20" AR comment, nearly ALL companies advertise with barrels many times LONGER than what is typically used, but my plans are to use a 23 or 24" as my 6.5/308 did well at 23", and I can 'forgive' a hundred fps to handle better and stiffen bbl for potential accuracy gain in a sporter contour bbl. LOTS of hunters are happy with 22-24" factory bbl in 260. It is enough for capacity, and for hunting ranges. I'd be inclined to always pick a longer heavier bbl for a comp gun, less blast, less muzzle lift, less recoil, etc.

I have no 308 to replace and don't expect to get a 308 to replace any 6.5. Barrel life and mil surp ammo is the only gain I see, the latter, if you don't roll your own, and to have more recoil, I'll pass. Besides in a lighter hunting weight rifle as I am building, a 7/08 is the max recoil I want, as I still like to do some paper punching to learn it.

quote:

The big boys will be using it and no doubt winning (the big boys usually do anyway) but I'll still be plugging away with my M70 target in .308 and just enjoying myself

Not necessarily for the 308.. but the Model 70 target rifle...

I myself prefer the 260 or 7/08... but any Model 70 man has my respect!!!

I'm thinking about a 6.5x47 hunting rifle, myself. From what I've seen, there isn't more than 50 fps or so between it and the bigger ones. That thicker brass, small rifle primer, and 62K psi works for me. The real advantage over the 260 is the lapua brass, IMO.

Having owned Winchesters, but only read of the TARGET models, 243s, and '06's they all drove tacks I understand. Imagine those heavy guns tame recoil.

Jaywalker, that is my take, not sure but I believe the Creedmore may use a large, I assume like the 250 does, the Lapua case/ctg does apparently allow more pressure due to more brass via small primer pocket. I read one shooter say that the 47 has been one of the most forgiving ctg's he has worked with developing accurate loads, sounds akin the 6BR, and brass quality likely is a contributing factor.

Not a hot rod, nothing special on ballistics, just many attributes I am looking for, all in one little package. If anything the competition shooters likely will embrace the Creedmore over time having perhaps 1-3 grains more capacity, an edge albeit small when the 1k shooters wish to redline whatever they shoot to get max wind drift. I would imagine a 260 with prepped brass as well as a 6.5x55 and Lapua brass, like quality guns/loads/shooters/conditions would ALL do very similar at longer ranges, slight differences in recoil and bbl life. I have had some excellent accuracy in past w/6.5/308 but not being a neck turner, had less frequency of tackdriving loads as the 6BR has given me, brass quality being the culprit IMHO.

Tell me about your planned project when you get time.

Seafire, you had asked about powder differences, this comment below compares 47/260/55. Hope that helps.

Based data from Quickload in form 6.5x47/260/6.5x55:

h20 capacity
48.0/53.5/57.0

OAL
2.8/2.8/3.15

capacity w/108 or 123 scenar @ OAL
43.7/46.7/53.2

capacity w/139 scenar @ OAL
42.9/45.9/52.4

max press (psi)
63091/60191/55114

The 6.5x47 is a more efficient cartridge than the 260 and the 260 is more efficient than the 6.5x55. In other words for the same amount of powder you'll get more velocity with the 6.5x47 than the 260 and more with the 260 than the 6.5x55. That said, you will be hard pressed to get 2800+ fps out of the 6.5x47 using 139/142 within the maximum pressure. This doen't matter to me since I shoot 139s at 2625 anyway, but it will matter to a lot of you.

The 6.5x47 allows the 139/142 to be seated so that the bullets base is close to the neck/shoulder junction and still be seated below the OAL. Can't do that with a 260 and be in a standard OAL/magazine. This should help accuracy wise and allows more case capacity for powder; see above. This is the other big advantage of the 6.5x47 over the 260. I agree with Troy that the Lapua brass is another advantage.

I'm interested in hearing from shooters who have had a chance to shoot one of Evelio's gun this year. If the results are good then my next chambering after I shoot out my current barrel may be a 6.5x47. I'm kind of tired of prepping less then perfect Rem brass or fire forming Lapua.

Silo65

This was posted by SU35 over on the Campfire Board the 6.5 C:

6.5's are the most overachieving caliber available to the gun world.

Good choice for those in the know.

How does it stack up against a 308? It smokes it and with far less recoil.

Performance Comparisons

Velocity(fps)/Trajectory Tables

6.5 Creedmoor .MUZZLE, ....600 yds, ......700 yds, ......800 yds, ...900 yds, and 1000 yds.
120 gr. A-MAX* 3020/-1.5, 1914/-74.3, 1758/-112.6, 1612/-162.2, 1477/-225.2, 1355/-304.1.
140 gr. A-MAX* 2820/-1.5, 1908/-81.3, 1777/-121.8, 1651/-173.3, 1534/-237.7, 1425/-316.9.

308 Winchester .........MUZZLE, ... 600 yds, .....700 yds, .....800 yds, ......900 yds, and 1000 yds.
168 gr. A-MAX Match* 2780/-1.5, 1753/-89.3, 1610/-135.0, 1478/-194.3, 1359/-269.6, 1253/-363.9.

223 Remington .......MUZZLE, ....600 yds, .....700 yds, ......800 yds, ....900 yds, and 1000 yds.
75 gr. BTPH Match* 2870/-1.5, 1644/-90.6, 1484/-139.3, 1341/-204.0, 1219/-288.3, 1123/-396.1.

*All ballistics obtained from a 28" test barrel

What rings most hunter's bells is muzzle velocity, even though almost no one actually shoots anything at the muzzle. This is not an apples to apples comparison, but it is about as close as I could come. The data for the 6.5 x 55, 260 Rem and 6.8 SPC came from Hodgdon's 2006 Annual Manual. The data on the 6.5 Creedmoor is Hornady's. the 6.5 C is loaded with H4350 powder, so maximum loads for the 260 and 6.5 x 55 are quoted with H4350 powder in the 120 and 140-grain bullet weights. The 6.8 is a smaller case utilizing faster burn rate powders. It also utilizes lighter weight bullets, so the heaviest bullet weight loaded is given with the powder producing the fastest muzzle velocity at that bullet weight from Hodgdon's data.

6.5 x 55

BW 120-Gr, P H4350, 46.0 Gr. MV 2,792 fps @ 45,800 CUP, 24" B
BW 140-Gr, P H4350, 44.0 Gr. MV 2,617 fps @ 45,700 CUP, 24" B

260 REM

BW 120-Gr, P H4350, 46.5 Gr. MV 2,960 fps @ 58,200 PSI, 24" B
BW 140-Gr, P H4350, 42.0 Gr. MV 2,677 fps @ 58,800 PSI, 24" B

6.5 C

BW 120-Gr, P H4350, 43.5 Gr. MV 3,020 fps @ > 60,000 PSI, 28" B
BW 140-Gr, P H4350, 41.2 Gr. MV 2,820 fps @ > 60,000 PSI, 28" B

6.8 SPC

BW 115-Gr, P H322, 28.2 Gr. MV 2,608 fps @ 53,300 PSI, 24" B

The 6.5 C and the 6.8 SPC are AR rifle platform friendly, the 6.5x 55 and the 260 REM are not usable on the AR platform...Rusty

quote:

Originally posted by 6.5BR:
...The 6.5x47 is a more efficient cartridge than the 260 and the 260 is more efficient than the 6.5x55...

The 6.5 grendel is rather efficient,and would sufficiently cover alot of the typical ranges many people shoot game at.


.223 loaded, 120nbt loaded, 120 SMK loaded, Speer120 Hot-cor, Sierra 120MK, Barnes 120TSX, Lapua 108 Silver Scenar, Barnes 110gr Banded Solid.


bullet on left 6.5/130 Sirocco (2250fps impact vel.) Test Tube Results HERE


6.5 Grendel; auto glass/gelatine Penetration Tests HERE


130ss 2.265oal
Factory grendel 129sst(2.26oal) typically squirt out at 2470fps(24") 48-49kpsi, loaded for autos.

You can load longer(2.36+) and more pressure in a bolt rifle... some folk are crankin' 130gn about 2650mv from 22" bolt rifles.
> 6.5grendel sorta looks like a Micro RCM in appearance dont it?

Id like something in between 6.5grendel(1.50")and 6.5 Creedmoor(1.90")....maybe a 6.5/280 british(1.70"), if youve ever seen the .280 Brit, you know what I mean. Its cute. LooK HERE.

Woodjack,

My 7mm BR 21" custom Model 7 clocks 120's at 2875fps, 130's doing 2665, 139's over 2500 so it is getting right in the range where you are talking.

6.5BR, I need MORE RANGE TIME!! My 7BR 20" hasn't measured up to your velocities yet but accurracy is extrodinaire!! As far as the 6.5 versions, I cannot help but think that the accurracy will be SUPERB using the 120AMAX's!! 260 Remington is all one needs to know as far as "6.5" stuff goes!! (for the most part as most folks cannot just go out and have a 6.5BR built on a whim!!) The .260 Remington is SUPERB in performance on paper as well as well as "varmints to deer"! And components(brass) is easy to come by! I have no problem with launching a 140AMAX at 2791fps at a groundhog at 800 yards after doing the "D.A.D.................""Dial And Dust"" deal! I have no problem with launching a 100 grain Nosler BT at a whitetails vitals or NECK(love neck shots!!....no tracking, no muss no fuss just drive to it............GHD rule........."Don't shoot it if you can't drive to it!!"(4-wheeler of otherwise)Damn a long drag out of the woods!! The .260 is is kinda like NIKON..............one of the best kept secrets in shooting!! GHD

Groundhog, I spoke to someone last night about your gun/and it not matching my speeds, well, chamber and barrel tolerances, let alone smoothness must account for something.

Clocking speeds above and would not be surprised a tad more could be squeaked out, safely of course, Lapua brass is easy to bump up. I have a 6.5 button to bump up one first, then go to 7mm.

As to the comments above by Woodjack, well you all know my call sign, 6.5BR and funny thing is never got around to it, now the Grendel, x47 Lapua, and Creedmore are out, not to mention 260 and x55, no need for me to build a 6.5BR, too bad the Grendel is on PPC size head, but my 7BR seems to do all it can, and more as heavier bullets can be shot if desired. I imagine I could load some Long heavy roundnose 7mm's in it, slumbering along about like the old 6.5x54 MS that took many elephants by Bell, not to mention I believe Charles Sheldon who took many LARGE animals in NA and perhaps other places IIRC.

These little rounds really perform and bragging rights/ego aside not having 3-4k fps, they do a very good job, fly fairly flat to 300-400 yds with good loads, accurate, and you can spot your own hits (or misses and that would be the shooters fault 99% of the time).

The Grendel looks really good above, and I think had say a Browning Ultra short action had been made in the Grendel vs say the WSSM's, it would have been much more accepted based on many complaints by reloaders of the WSSM rounds, hard sizing, brass quality, etc were reported.

GD, I'd say if your velocity is close, just dial in range. I too am shocked to see 2875 from a 120 grain in my 7BR as my 7/08 (two tested both same 21" bbls) got from 3050-3100, and I don't know any white tail that can tell the difference.

Not the one I dumped running at 200 yds this year! Watched the deer do a front flip in the Nikon (like that GD) yes Nikon 4x32mm, 130 grain Speer FB found mark. Oh, meat damage not bad, damage was very lethal, but I did not destroy excess venison!

Save your ears, shoulder, powder, and barrel wear and try these mid size high performing rounds and see if it does not put a smile on one's face, that's my take on the BR's and similar rounds. For paper, varmints and deer to most ranges needed, they get it done, and comfortably. Do realize if you try one, your range session will be extended, you will shoot more = more fun and = more practice = better shooter and you learn your gun more. Really nice to watch your hits w/o a spotter.

GD, do you coyote hunt? I can imagine using the 7mm BR repeater on them w/100gr Hornady's at about 3,000 mv, should really put the hurt on them with light recoil and fast recovery if you get multiples.