Just got back from a whitetail cull and got to observe and use a number of calibers...most impressive was the 220 swift, killed like a lightening bolt..but it failed on one ocassion and blew out a plate size shoulder wound, but the second shot did the job, and the first one imobilized the animale...My 6x45mm did the job as usual, and so did the little 30-30 in the cute savage 99 I bought on AR, My 7x57 of course worked like a charm as usual with swift 150 Siraccos, but they are a tad hard for those little deer..All in all it was a grand trip..and the quail huntign over dogs was great fun with my superposed, first bird hunt in many years..

What bullet did you use in the 220 Swift?

Which part of TX did you hunt, RAY?
I've been through Kerr, Gillespie, Lampasas and Burnet Counties this week and haven't seen a deer much over 100 lb.

Further South, in Goliad County, I know folks who took 155 & 165 lb deer.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Just got back from a whitetail cull and got to observe and use a number of calibers...most impressive was the 220 swift, killed like a lightening bolt..but it failed on one ocassion and blew out a plate size shoulder wound, but the second shot did the job, and the first one imobilized the animale.

Neither of those statements are surprising. Nailing a deer dead on with something doing almost 4000fps is going to stone them right there. Trouble is, if everything doesn't go exactly right, you might have a situation on your hands. Glad to see the first shot at least stopped the deer and you were able to finish with the second.

I'll add my question: Are whitetails so plentiful in Texas that they have to be culled? Up here, they're our most popular game animal, one per hunter per season and kiss your rifle and your pickup goodbye if you're caught violating that.

Here in Henry County, Tennesee, the deer season ran from 23 November until January 3 and the DAILY bag limit was 3 (only two ANTLERED deer per season, however). This was by far the worst year ever for me: I took only one buck, but it was the only deer I saw. My hunting partner took two bucks and seven does, but, like me, drew a blank for several days. I am handicapped and forced to hunt out of a blind, which is definitely not my preference. My partner is not so aflicted.

What makes the situation even more baffling is the fact that in the week preceding rifle season, when muzzle loading season was in full swing, my field was teeming with deer, which I refrained from shooting at because they were out of range of my muzzle loader. The rut was in full swing and courtship flourished.

The only explanation for the phenomenon was the theory that this year was a bumper year for acorns, which deer supposedly prefer above all else. My woods are made up primarily of red oak, with a salting of white oak, and some hickory and sweet gum, so that theory is plausible. The county bag was in the low 2,000's, which is low compared to last year and the year before. Total for the state was over 92,000.

Last year, hunting from the same blind, I took two bucks and five does.

quote:

Originally posted by Herkimer:
I'll add my question: Are whitetails so plentiful in Texas that they have to be culled? Up here, they're our most popular game animal, one per hunter per season and kiss your rifle and your pickup goodbye if you're caught violating that.

Most counties in Texas are 2 buck & 3 doe per person. If the ranch has MLD permits to get the buck to doe ratio on the land correct (per game biologist survey)...you could actually shoot a few hundred depending on the size of the ranch.

My friends deer lease the past 2 years he has used a .22-250 on 40 does. Mainly neck or head shot and always with that walmart white box 45gr jhp

Have a bud the lives east of Amarillo just west of the Okla. line that usually gets 50 doe permits yearly. They give the field dressed meat to the county to feed the prisoners.

quote:

Most counties in Texas are 2 buck & 3 doe per person.

Actually, it is "five deer, but no more than one (or two, depending on county) bucks per season" in most counties. In other words, on land which is not in the special management program a hunter can take up to five does if no buck is taken.

The fact is that over most of the Texas deer habitat there are NEVER enough does taken each year to keep a healthy sex balance. When Ray speaks of "culling" he's talking about reducing the number of does. Most Texas counties have a two week extension following the regular deer season in which only antlerless deer (and spikes) are legal for most hunters. This is also a special youth season (hunters 17 and under) who may take any deer which is legal during the regular season.

The "Managed Lands" program allows enrolled larger properties to basically set their own seasons from roughly October through February and take whatever number of antlered and antlerless deer their biologist-recommended number is during that period.

I know all of this seems odd to Canadians and other northern hunters. But in northern climates harsh winters can make the fawn survival rate very low, thus populations are somewhat self-limiting. Over most of Texas with its "warm" (ha, ha, devilishly hot) climate, in years with adequate rainfall does will average raising more than one fawn surviving its first year (often as many as three). Drought in spring and summer is much more a mortality factor for Texas deer than is any other type of adverse weather.

I hunt only on the Iowa Army Ammo Plant; all of Iowa is private land.
The rule there is, you have to kill a doe and check it in before you can shoot a buck. If a ten point buck comes up to you first and licks your hand you can't do anything; the penalties are harsh; it is Federal Property. And they search your vehicle. And give you a Covid test.
But they have managed the herd to a 50-50 sex ratio. You no longer see herds of does running around.
And here, even the spring fawns will weigh 100 pounds; all are corn fed.
Also, at Ft Knox, they have a buck antler size rule; might be 8 point min. I hunted there too when I was stationed there.
So, deer can be managed if the managers want to do it.

Every county in Texas is different, where I hunted last year on a 8000 acre ranch they culled 109 does, and the surrounding ranches shot as many as 200 or moore..10 ranches connecting do those kills and the butcher in town processes the meat and it goes to the needy...Texas has somewhere around 8 or 10 million deer..the eradication of the screw worm fly created the excess in just a few years for the livestock industry and it also created herds of other animals..

Ive used the 22-250 and 220 swift on my deer when I ranched, kills great, very bad about blood shot eatable meat so head and neck shots are best, head shot far better..The ranch owner this year used factory Hornady, don't know what weight..Does in most of texas weigh about a 100 pounds...In the South texas "Golden Triangle" bucks will weigh as much as 225 pounds and have 190 to 220 score or more, monsters..Texas is usually worm, but a blue Norther can blow in and Ive never been so cold and it did this year 20 degrees, 100% humidity, 20 mile and hour wind and hard rain!! no getting warm, never been that cold in Idaho, prefer a nice 10 below zero, calm, no wind normally no humidity..nice!

The highlight of the hunting was on the Pitchfork, 4 sixes ranch. I shot an alloted doe there and quail over dogs, I mostly enjoyed seeing monster Mule deer, ( no hunting them ) and being a rancher off and on my whole life I mostly enjoyed the drive around the ranch and looking the cowherd over, great ranching program going on..some one said they had 8000 head of mother cows..Didn't get to see the horse operation as it was at the other end of the ranch some 250 miles south, now thats a ranch. My favorite rifle under all condition for deer has always been the 7x57 and the .308 a distant second, but there are many just as good..

I think I covered most of the question asked reference the above posts..

[QUOTE]Originally posted by xausa: What makes the situation even more baffling is the fact that in the week preceding rifle season, when muzzle loading season was in full swing, my field was teeming with deer, which I refrained from shooting at because they were out of range of my muzzle loader. QUOTE]


I can relate to that, xausa. Back in the day, my mother used to drive back and forth to the airport, up and down our version of the interstate, late at night. September and October, the grass embankments either side were full of glowing eyes from many dozens of deer grazing there. As soon as November clicked, boom - nothing. It's like the head buck blew a whistle and everybody jumped out of the pool.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:I know all of this seems odd to Canadians and other northern hunters.

It doesn't seem so much odd as bloody amazing - I'm truly in awe! It sounds like a hunter's paradise. (Well, other than Ray's description of the weather....)

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Have a bud the lives east of Amarillo just west of the Okla. line that usually gets 50 doe permits yearly. They give the field dressed meat to the county to feed the prisoners.

Is that the excess meat, or are you not allowed to keep any of it?

And thanks to all of you for the great responses. It's been a real eye-opener!

Our county sheriff has a program called "Hunters for the Hungry" which alows hunters to drop off deer at the jail where they are processed by the prisoners and the procesed meat is distributed to the needy fanilies. Field dresing is not required. I contributed two last year.

I'm sure we could keep the meat, but I never offered to keep any.My wife doesn't care for it.
We are Axis deer folks.

quote:

Originally posted by Herkimer:

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:I know all of this seems odd to Canadians and other northern hunters.

It doesn't seem so much odd as bloody amazing - I'm truly in awe! It sounds like a hunter's paradise. (Well, other than Ray's description of the weather....)

Yes, but remember, it takes about three of our whitetails to equal the weight of one in some places in Canada. I've forgotten the name of the scientist who first came up with the observation, but in general "the further from the equator the larger the typical species". However, it is nice to sometimes see dozens of deer each day you hunt. Of course, there are other times that, despite the dense population, they're just not moving and you see little or nothing -- but at those times you're likely to see a hog or a coyote you can pop, so it keeps it interesting.

Bergmann.
I had to take a course in Wildlife Management as part of the Forestry curriculum; forgot most of it by now.

quote:

Originally posted by Herkimer:
I'll add my question: Are whitetails so plentiful in Texas that they have to be culled? Up here, they're our most popular game animal, one per hunter per season and kiss your rifle and your pickup goodbye if you're caught violating that.

I've not hunted in TX yet. As for population, one drive took my wife and I from Bandera to Hondo, over to Sabinal, Leakey, Utopia and back to Bandera.
In this 180 mile drive we saw 10 live deer and 43 killed along the roadways. IMO, the Texas Hill Country is thick with whitetail.

I live in northern Wisconsin. Harsh winters take their toll but wolfs, coyotes, bears and bobcats are taking a lot of deer.

The Pitchfork and the Four Sixes are two different ranches.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:Yes, but remember, it takes about three of our whitetails to equal the weight of one in some places in Canada. I've forgotten the name of the scientist who first came up with the observation, but in general "the further from the equator the larger the typical species". However, it is nice to sometimes see dozens of deer each day you hunt. Of course, there are other times that, despite the dense population, they're just not moving and you see little or nothing -- but at those times you're likely to see a hog or a coyote you can pop, so it keeps it interesting.

That's very true, and that would be an important factor for a trophy hunter, especially. On the other hand, for someone who's filling a freezer, he can simply take three (or more) does with those bag limits to make up the difference with quantity! For someone else who hunts just for the enjoyment, he can enjoy the hunt over and over, rather than pack up for home after using his lone tag.

And then, as you say, there's the hogs...

Helm,
Yes they are two ranches, but the horse operation is a partnership, and maybe the cattle also, the 6666 sold recently..I don't know all the details just gathered from one of the ranch employees conversation and only got half of that, but no matter its great tour of the part I was on..I especially liked the cow/calf operation, those grade cows were so perfect you could have laid a level on their backs the whole herd in a line.

I knew the 6666 was for sale but not that is has sold.

Texas had 7 million whitetail, years ago and I would bet that number has doubled sine then, anyone got an up to date number??

How big are those TX cull deer? The State is big and different that I here deer run the gamut in body weight depending on where you are.

I would not have a problem with the 220 Swift with a 60 grain partition on a 100 pound critter.

Right here at my house in a residential neighborhood, I get deer in my yard every night. This has only happened in the past very few years. Goodfellow Air Force Base is only couple miles away and deer are very thick there now. Back in the 80's when I was active duty, I never saw a deer on base.

As of 2019 the estimated wtd population was 5.6 million, mule deer at 300k.

Perry

thats a lot of deer, just driving around town in Austin and Llano for instance bucks may run 65 to 80 lbs and are in the yards. Go 100 miles
So. and 125 for bucks, go To Laredo and te Golden Triangle and bucks have been killed up to 250 lbs with Boone and Crocket heads.. Mule deer and coues are abundant in West Texas as well as regular whitetail, NOrth to the panhandle and Muleys go up to 175 to 190 lbs, maybe.heavier..Go North of Midland and Odessa and the deer are as large as 250 lbs and Mule deer score 230 plus, and are far and few between. Deer are geographical in size its a big state, Did I mention El Paso, they have large deer all the way to New Mexico that has a lage border area with texas..I killed some monsters there as a kid on our ranch.

and now Texas is getting elk in huntable numbers in the Alpne, Ft. Davis and Marathon area and on low fence ranches in that area..There have always been elk behind Marathon on the old Cap Yates ranch and the between Marathon and Ft. Stockton...

LHeym500--Put it in the right spot, you'd be way over-gunned with a 220 swift and 60 grain partition on a 100 pound critter. Even a .222 with a 55 grain cup and core is more than needed. Bullet placement is the key.

quote:

I've not hunted in TX yet. As for population, one drive took my wife and I from Bandera to Hondo, over to Sabinal, Leakey, Utopia and back to Bandera.
In this 180 mile drive we saw 10 live deer and 43 killed along the roadways. IMO, the Texas Hill Country is thick with whitetail.

My daughter does claims intake for a major insurance company. She says that some nights more than half of the calls are reporting deer collisions, and when one of those nights comes around it isn't just one geographic location but is spread all over the U.S. I'd love to see the "metadata" on animal collision claims to correlate it to moon/tides/weather/astrology/or whatever; but from what she tells me something gets them all out roaming around at the same time.

Regarding the roadkills seen in Texas, I took two guest hunters from Denmark on a 250 mile ride across a swath of Texas a couple of years ago. Seeing the roadside deer carcasses they couldn't believe that when a deer is run over that someone doesn't stop and retrieve the carcass (I think it is actually illegal in Texas). They said that a deer carcass never stays more than a few minutes on the roadside in Denmark. They have a saying that the great thing about the roe deer is that "they will fit in the boot of any car". In fact, when I went on a reciprocal visit to hunt with them in Denmark they fed me road-killed roe deer!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
thats a lot of deer, just driving around town in Austin and Llano for instance bucks may run 65 to 80 lbs and are in the yards. Go 100 miles
So. and 125 for bucks, go To Laredo and te Golden Triangle and bucks have been killed up to 250 lbs with Boone and Crocket heads.. Mule deer and coues are abundant in West Texas as well as regular whitetail, NOrth to the panhandle and Muleys go up to 175 to 190 lbs, maybe.heavier..Go North of Midland and Odessa and the deer are as large as 250 lbs and Mule deer score 230 plus, and are far and few between. Deer are geographical in size its a big state, Did I mention El Paso, they have large deer all the way to New Mexico that has a lage border area with texas..I killed some monsters there as a kid on our ranch.

Ray is correct about the variation in deer sizes around Texas, which don't follow the Bergmann rule precisely, but are more dependent on the quality and type of forage available to them. Both South Texas brush country deer and North Texas deer from the Rolling Plains/Panhandle can get to be pretty good size -- a 200 lb whitetail buck (live weight) can be found both places. In between is the Texas Hill Country where the forage doesn't promote growth as well and deer are also overpopulated most places, so, while some very good bucks are often found in the Hill Country, the deer are typically smaller.

However, body size and antler size don't always go together. Northern whitetails can grow to the size of small horses, but may have rather modest antlers. Texas deer, if allowed to grow old enough, usually have antlers that are disproportionately large compared to their body weight. But both North and South, local conditions are an important factor in both body and antlers.

We really need the state to issue cull tags around us bad. Without exaggerating there are thousands of the things around us. I believe Iowa City finally secured the DNR OK to use sharp shooters on the QT inside the city limits.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I hunt only on the Iowa Army Ammo Plant; all of Iowa is private land.
The rule there is, you have to kill a doe and check it in before you can shoot a buck. If a ten point buck comes up to you first and licks your hand you can't do anything; the penalties are harsh; it is Federal Property. And they search your vehicle. And give you a Covid test.
But they have managed the herd to a 50-50 sex ratio. You no longer see herds of does running around.
And here, even the spring fawns will weigh 100 pounds; all are corn fed.
Also, at Ft Knox, they have a buck antler size rule; might be 8 point min. I hunted there too when I was stationed there.
So, deer can be managed if the managers want to do it.

I can remember driving from the truck stop on 34 down to the hospital passed the ammo plant ground & seeing 35-40 deer in one group in there. I haven't paid much attention the last few years.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Right here at my house in a residential neighborhood, I get deer in my yard every night. This has only happened in the past very few years. Goodfellow Air Force Base is only couple miles away and deer are very thick there now. Back in the 80's when I was active duty, I never saw a deer on base.

My back yard is a corn/bean field. Every afternoon before dark I see 6-8 deer work their way across. Takes them about 30 minutes.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

I've not hunted in TX yet. As for population, one drive took my wife and I from Bandera to Hondo, over to Sabinal, Leakey, Utopia and back to Bandera.
In this 180 mile drive we saw 10 live deer and 43 killed along the roadways. IMO, the Texas Hill Country is thick with whitetail.

My daughter does claims intake for a major insurance company. She says that some nights more than half of the calls are reporting deer collisions, and when one of those nights comes around it isn't just one geographic location but is spread all over the U.S. I'd love to see the "metadata" on animal collision claims to correlate it to moon/tides/weather/astrology/or whatever; but from what she tells me something gets them all out roaming around at the same time.

Regarding the roadkills seen in Texas, I took two guest hunters from Denmark on a 250 mile ride across a swath of Texas a couple of years ago. Seeing the roadside deer carcasses they couldn't believe that when a deer is run over that someone doesn't stop and retrieve the carcass (I think it is actually illegal in Texas). They said that a deer carcass never stays more than a few minutes on the roadside in Denmark. They have a saying that the great thing about the roe deer is that "they will fit in the boot of any car". In fact, when I went on a reciprocal visit to hunt with them in Denmark they fed me road-killed roe deer!

Stone- ever been over to LBJ ranch? If course you have. Not uncommon to see 100 or more hanging out in the pasture. Apparently, they know they're safe.

The wife and I have been looking at real estate around Kerrville, F-burg, Harper, Comfort. Boerne...along the I-10 corridor, +/-12 miles. Every day, we see at least 35 deer; frequently, this is at the proprties we are viewing. The deer population is huge!

Hi Ray,

I wonder if there is any bullet that can consistently hold together and penetrate at 220 Swift velocities ? I believe someone mentioned a 60 grain partition. Am I correct in thinking most 22-250 and swift bullets are built very fragile so they essentially explode on varmint sized game ?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
brair

The 6666 horse operation is just outside Guthrie, Texas. The Pitchfork on the west side of the 6666. Know how you identify 6666 property? 6 wire fence

Some real nice deer on those two places.

I have weighed deer in S Texas and Old Mexico above 280 lbs.
The deer in the Texas panhandle can approach that size but their antlers grow in a more non typical manner.
If you want the opportunity to take a large +160 typical free range buck go to a managed S. Texas ranch.
A good lease down there to shoot a free range buck will end up costing you $20K / yr.
You can take a pen raised genetically altered pet +200 pt for about $11K (Not my style).
Hunted in Alberta a couple of times and never got my buck but saw some whoppers taken there. Mass is in a different league.
A typical mature S Texas buck will have 34" of mass. A big one 38-40" mass.
Much of the S Texas land is leased by folks in Big Oil.
With the oil patch like it is the demand for these high dollar leases may dip dropping the prices a bit.
The brush county / desert is a zoo!

Saw some mule deer in the 26 to 28 inch spread to perhaps one that would go 30 maybe and most were high horned and mass was medium, and one flat horned heavy deer, at maybe 27 or 28..

I had the Rosillas Mt. Ranch leased at one time in the late 70s, and it had the biggest deer in the whole Big bend from El Paso to Sanderson to Ft. Stockton, but North of Ft. Stockton, Midland and Odessa all the way to HObbs NM are some of the biggest Mule deer I have ever seen, but they are far and few between, that sacawesti brush and sand hills just grows big deer..I think ever Texas state record has come out of that area..I saw a 334.5 point mule deer come out of there some years ago..Several state records must have beat that deer..One of those deer is mounted in the Iran or Rankin state police office or was as I recall and that record was broken recently Im told...