Sounds like you all had a fine time.

Had a buddy send me a CD from some folks called Crooked Horn Outfitters(I think). Got to see some pretty interesting Hunts and a good bit of it was with some folks out your way for Elk. Had all kinds of Game Killed on it and provided a fine afternoon without the rain landing on my head.

Sure not as good as being out smelling the Powder though.

Best of luck with your Varminting.

First, let me say that I'm fascinated by Hornets and have just bought my third (two standard and one K-). I've grown to enjoy shooting them more than just about any other caliber I own, up to and including a .375 Ackely Improved.

However, love is not blind. Here are the shortcomings I've found with the Hornet:

1. Cases are way too thin, and . . .

2. Unfortunately, due to headspacing on its rim, manufacturers tend to cut chambers way too large. This combination makes for some challenges. I wish I could purchase some Hornet cases whose neck walls more closely matched the diameter of my chambers' neck diameter.

3. There ain't no such thing as a powder with the "right" burning rate. For "full power" loads, W296 probably comes closest. WW680/AA1680 is good, but too slow for the regular Hornet (does great in the K-, however). 2400 is too fast. And maybe I'm just the outlier, but Lilgun provides grossly divergent high/low velocity strings for me.

4. Too many Hornets are built on actions that are far too large for them. After all, the same action frame in a Browning A-Bolt houses cartridges as large as .338 Federal! If I'm shooting a miniature cartridge, I want it to be on a miniature action.

5. It ain't a .223. If you want 3200 fps velocities, don't tell me about stuffing more and more powder in the thin little Hornet case, just go get you a .223 and be done with it. A Hornet is to be used for, guess what, "Hornet class" loads. Sure, a Hornet will shoot further than 200 yards (so will a .22 Short), but keep it well inside this range and your targets will have a lot more respect for your shooting.

6. The .221 Fireball is what the Hornet should have been. I finally got one of those in a nice sporter/varminter and getting it to shoot right is much simpler than any of the Hornets. Which makes me wonder why I continue to spend a bundle of time and energy on the Hornets? Despite that, I'm clearly not conisidering donating any of my mysteriously beloved Hornets to the Goodwill

Stonecreek don't tell Hot Core but I too am aware that the Hornet is a geriatric design much like myself and us oldsters all have our shortcomings. For me however I have two Anschutz Hornets both a 1730 Meister Grade rifle and an Examplar handgun both on the 54 actions. Also I've had two CZ's one's now a .17 Ackley Hornet and ones a .22 K-Hornet. I've also had one Cooper .22 K-Hornet. All have shot exceedingly well with no wailing or gnashing of teeth at all. Duck soup!
All I use is WW cases and those I weight segregate into MTM boxes of 50 and keep marked for the specific weapon that shoots them. After firing I neck size only and on the K's and .17 Ackley the chambers are cut with minimum spec, reamers with a 1 1/2 degree lead with zero free-bore. Case life is great as I totally agree with you that a Hornet never a .223 shall make! I have .223's so it doesn't need to be one for me, I also have a .221 Fire Ball (which I'm also madly in love with but that's another story altogether). I'm a firm believer in the step ladder approach to varminting.
I agree on Lil'Gun with it's high SD's it is indeed a weird propellant. That said however on a 40 grain .224 caliber V-Max at 3,000ish FPS an 80 to 100FPS velocity spread which would make a substantial difference on a 600 yard rifle means little at the 250ish yard realistic maximum range of the Hornet. Just my opinion from playing with ballistic programs too much and seeing how little some of the issues I thought were vitally important actually effect things. Further, on Lil'Gun in a Hornet which I use a lot it has been my experience that it has a point of diminishing returns in that at about 13.1 to 13.2ish or so grains of it with a 40 grainer when I started going over that my SD's went all to heck as did the accuracy plus which the velocity actually started to drop not rise . Like I said, weird!
I appreciate the Hornet for what it is, not what it isn't.

quote:

Originally posted by montdoug:
.... point of diminishing returns in that at about 13.1 to 13.2ish or so grains of it with a 40 grainer when I started going over that my SD's went all to heck as did the accuracy plus which the velocity actually started to drop not rise . Like I said, weird!

Aah....! You stopped too soon. Lil'Gun is truly weird - even magical.
I've mentioned many times before how the stuff goes from heating the barrel at a dizzy rate to staying cool and raising velocity by increasing the charge by an increment. And I mean seriously compressing the powder! Yup. Great stuff in a great cartridge!

Montdoug: I agree that a hundred or even a hundred-fifty fps of velocity variation isn't necessarily an accuracy killer for a 200 yard cartridge. I'm always surprised at how little difference in point of impact that such shot-to-shot velocity differences seem to make. By the same token, I find some loads with a magnificently small SD of 5 or 6 fps that seem to spray their shots all over the target. However, all things being equal, I like my velocities to be a little more consistent than I get with Lilgun, so I have found AA1680 to be a worthy substitute with many bullets.

Like I say, I'll leave the 3,000+ fps loads to my larger .22 Centerfires and keep the Hornets working in the 2600-2900 range.

But I do use Lilgun -- it works wonders in high-intensity, heavy bullet large bore revolver cartridges, where its velocity standard deviations are surprisingly low.

AA1680 is a great powder and certainly a valid choice if you don't care for Lil'Gun's idiosyncrasies. I shoot 1680 in a wildcat I shoot based on the Bee case called a .20 Killer Bee, it is also a "FANTASTIC" powder in the .221 Fire Ball.
The velocity of 3,000ish (give or take) that my Anschutz delivers with 40 grain V-Max's is incidental, it's the accuracy that first attracted me to Lil'Gun and it's the reason I still use it. Run a 40 V-Max on a ballistic program and just change the velocity back and forth between 2,900 and 3,000FPS, not enough difference to spit at.
As an aside, when Lil'Gun first came out Hornady's manual showed a max charge of 13.7 grains of it under a 40 grainer (they have since reduced that maximum). At any rate my best accuracy came together with that 3,000ish velocity at 13.2 or 13.3 grains of it. When I saw the velocity I called Hodgdon and was actually told by one of their techs that you can't get enough Lil'Gun in a Hornet case under a 40 grainer to cause pressure problems. True story! I didn't trust it then and I don't trust it now especially in highly compressed or as some recommend, heavily crimped loads. I have some cases that have been reloaded 7 or 8 times and the primer pockets are still tight as a tick. Weird!
I was also surprised to repeatedly chrono that 10 inch barreled Anschutz Exemplar using the same load and got 2,650ish out of it. I expected a much bigger drop with that stubby barrel. Extremely accurate in it as well. This is one of many similar 100 yard groups shot with that 10 inch barrel using a Burris 3X12 Ballistic Plex handgun scope and a bi-pod.



Yep, those Hornets sure are inaccurate .