The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Small Calibers 6.5 something ?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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While everyone seems to be going to bigger and bigger calibres, I'm looking for something a bit smaller, especially for the light skinned game we have here in Australia. As I'm a 6.5 freak I was thinking along the lines of a 22-250 case necked up to .264, sort of an enlarged 250 savage.I have a Portugese Vergueiro action which would go well in a full wood stock with about a 19 inch barrel . The problem has always been the lack of easily available cases with a useable rim size and a capacity between 223 and 308, the 6.5x50 or 52 would be good but too hard to find cases for, so the 250 case seems the way to go. So if anyone has any ideas, info on pressures,etc. or anything that might help.......lets hear it !! Roger | ||
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I would suggest the 6.5X47 Lapua. NRA Patron Life Member Benefactor Level | |||
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Looking at the case dimensions, there does'nt appear to be a lot of difference, and I can get 22-250 cases anywhere ! Roger | |||
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I believe a necked up 22-250 would be extremely similar to the 260 Rem. Why reinvent the wheel when a perfectly good wheel and tire are sitting on the shelf ready to be installed? Pancho LTC, USA, RET "Participating in a gun buy-back program because you think that criminals have too many guns is like having yourself castrated because you think your neighbors have too many kids." Clint Eastwood Give me Liberty or give me Corona. | |||
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 6.5x55  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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What Pancho said! If you can't get 260 brass, you can make it easily from 308 or 243 brass. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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Yuma, 6.5 Swede would be the way to go, but it really needs the long action to do it justice.. if your action is shorter, go the 260 Rem. There's bugger all difference. I've recently rebarrelled my Ruger 270 to the Swede, and I couldn't be happier... apart from giving my ex the flick. ******************************** A gun is a tool. A moron is a moron. A moron with a hammer who busts something is still just a moron, it's not a hammer problem. Daniel77 | |||
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I've necked up 22.250 and put a 6.5 bullet on it just playing around to see what it looked like, since the primer pocket was loosened and the brass was junk... I thought it was a pretty slick looking little round... if 22.250 brass is available readily... and 243 is not, then go with what you have.. some of my American brethern here don't realize that in other parts of the world, components aren't necessarily as readily available as here in the USA...you gotta use what you have.. for bullet weights from 85 grains to 120 grains you can use readily available 250 Savage data... for heavier bullets, you could probably reference conservatively loaded 6.5 x 52 Carcano data, just work up from a hair lower... what you are considering may be thought by many to be a 'wildcat' but in reality, you are not exactly reinventing the wheel, so I'd ignore any criticism you might get from some of your all knowing mates over it... good luck with your project..  | |||
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nobody has mentioned the 6.5 Grendel yet, so i'll do it. | |||
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The 6.5-250. Is that the 6.5 International. Von Gruff. | |||
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For lack of a better name, I'd say "yes". Certainly the .250 Savage necked down to 6 m/m is the "6 m/m International". I have a reamer for that down in my shop. So, no reason why the 6 m/m International necked up to 6.5 wouldn't be properly called the "6.5 International". It's been around for about 60+ years or more, BTW. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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.......seafire2 seems to have hit the nail on the head.I'm after a mild cartridge like the 6.5 jap and carcano to use in an old action. I 'm not trying to re-invent the wheel, I know what cartridges are available...factory and wildcat ! I already have a 6.5x55, several actually,a 6.5 zipper imp.and a 6.5 RCBS (6.5-06 IMP.)Reproducing the 6.5 jap with a more readily available case is the purpose of the exercise and also to resurrect a classic action and rifle style....the full wood mannlicher alpine rifle......whizz bang uber velocity shoot a mile dinosaur stoppers don't interest me. Roger | |||
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Actually you can do just that using 220 Swift cases.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Excellent !! I'll start looking for some swift cases. Thank you Roger | |||
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I should have thought about it earlier.. the IHMSA cartridges are based on the 300 Savage.. Hodgdon # 26 has load data for the IMHSA cartridges, using Hodgdon, which are mostly ADI powders... they list a 6.5 IMHSA in there, with bullet weights from 85 to 160 grains...so that should set you up for load data... Life Member: The American Vast Right Wing Conspiracy Jan 20, 2009.. Prisoner in Dumocrat 'Occupied America', Partisan in the 'Save America' Underground Beavis..... James Beavis..... Of Her Majesty's Secret Service..... Spell Check Division "Posterity — you will never know how much it has cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it." John Quincy Adams A reporter did a human-interest piece on the Texas Rangers. The reporter recognized the Colt Model 1911 the Ranger was carrying and asked him "Why do you carry a 45?" The Ranger responded, "Because they don't make a 46." Duhboy....Nuttier than Squirrel Poop... | |||
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.....decided to stay with the 22-250 case, only have to increase neck diameter (I'm lazy ). These are dummy rounds,left to right : 6.5 zipper imp.-99 savage 6.5 savage -port. vergueiro 6.5 jap 6.5 carcano  I think the 6.5 savage will make a nice efficient carbine round. Roger | |||
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6.5 BR is a nice case to shoot! I have on on a mod 7 Rem. Shoots VERY small groups as well as these little Blacktails here in Or. Aloha, Mark When the fear of death is no longer a concern----the Rules of War change!! | |||
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A 6.5 Intl looks like a very handy little cartridge. Another advantage of using a home brewed wildcat is you can control the operating pressure in your Vergueiro action. Might even make a nice round for the T/C Contender if you can convince the barrel maker you won't firewall it. Please keep us posted. | |||
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go with the .260 remington. brass is easily formed from .243, 7mm-08 and 308 . it is an excellent round with high ballistic coefficient. | |||
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What would be wrong with a 6.5 x 308 Win? or perhaps a 6.5 X .300WSM Don't ask me what happened, when I left Viet Nam, we were winning. | |||
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A 6.5 on a 250 case would be very similar to a 6.5x47Lapua. I would just do the 260, if you want to be exotic, do the Lapua. Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they are not out to get you.... | |||
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Is it a 1904 that was a 6.5x58 or the 1904/39 in 8x57? (not that it matters that much, just curious) Sounds as though you've picked your wildcat-- though you can go with a longer cartridge in the action if you choose. Like a 260 AAR. I have"too many" 6.5's I am told from small case capacity to outlandish. The AAR is one of my favorites. What twist are you considering? DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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Why is it that everybody wants me to use a bigger case ? The object was to duplicate the 6.5 jap, the 250 case seems the closest all round. The 1904 was an 8mm, not sure on twist yet , depends on if I use 100 or 129 gr pills.....any suggestions ??? Roger | |||
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Personally I think you could not do better if you're a roll your own guy.  another rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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I gota say I love allmost any 6.5 and full stock rifles, and I think your 6.5x250 would be a great cartridge for what you are needing it for. good luck with it be shure to post your results | |||
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Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Match type bullet twist: Generally for 100's 10 to 11 120's 9 to 10 130's 8 to 9 140's 8 Most of my original rifles run 8 to 9, some of them handle the lighter bullets well some do not. almost all were original designed for 156 to 160 grains, most handle the 140's, 142's nicely and all do well with the 160's. One of my long range 6.5's I had a 7 twist made for some custom ( and very long) 155's. The 250 case is not a bad case---just has a tad shorter neck than I prefer, kind of like the old 308 Norma/300 Win debate. DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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Do you recall the names of the two cartridges Developed by Dr. Ramon Somavia of Hollister, California in about 1959-1960? They used about a 6-1/2" twist and shot 6.5 bullets of 180 grains, IIRC. (I think he also experimented with 200 grainers.) Anyway, they were written up in Guns magazine, among others, about 1960 or 1961. I was a Sheriff's Deputy in Hollister at the time, and know he did a lot of work on them, with rather good results. Interestingly enough, he was the heir to one of the origninal Spanish California land grant ranches of 70,000-to-100,000 acres, and his wife had inherited another similar sized land grant ranch right next door. Two of the classic Old California gentry, the likes of which no longer exist. Both were honest, fabulously rich, and very much into the sports of the West, as well as breeding very fine livestock. | |||
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Have not read that article. Got my start playing with the 6.5's after a conversation with Mr. Ackley many years ago. He gave me info about Dr. E.L. Arch and his 7 and 5 1/4 twist rifles. Apparently Barnes made him some 200 grain bullets for the 5 1/4 twist. My 7 twist is a 6.5/300 WWH, built (while I (ahem) " assisted") by an old German gunsmith that had come to Texas after WWII. It was my first project with him, later he actually agreed to-- "attempt" to train me, as he oft reminded me. DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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Fred, indeed, made these heavy 6.5 bullets and had made up a rifle of his own to test them.It was, IMSC, along throated, fast twist, .264 Magnum. If memory serves correctly , Fred's buddy Jack Whitworth was doing heavy 6.5s also. rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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I have been thinking about the 260 AAR.It should shoot with the best of them and be a little different.Good Luck | |||
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I remember some articles about a heavy bullet .25 with the author claining to have discovered "aerodynamic lift" unique to the long roundnose bullets in his wildcat. Was that Dr. Ramon Somavia? I believe he was shooting 160 gr custom made Barnes bullets. The jist of the article was that long bullets would "lift" and shoot flatter than gravity would allow. BTW -- The Vergueiro was made by Steyr before the Portuguese took over it's manufacture and they were made in 6.5x58 and then converted to 8x57JS. A small number of carbines were made in 7x57 and shipped to Brazil. Hard to mount a scope on these things as the rear receiver ring is split. | |||
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DocEd gave ya some great advice. This is a 6.5X47Lapua necked down to 6MM next to a 6TallBR and a .243. Leave as a 6.5 for what your talking.  Great brass, extremely accurate, modest yet outstanding performer. Don't have to form anything and buy factory dies. "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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Sorry, but I honestly no longer know the answer to that, if I ever did. I can't even look it up any more. I don't recall Ramon ever having said that, but that doesn't mean he didn't. Until about 10 years ago I had a copy of every isue of "Guns" magazine ever published up 'til then, ditto several other "gun" magazines, such as Guns & Ammo, Shooting Times, the American Rifleman, etc. It finally just became too much, space and time wise, to maintain. So I took several of the comnplete sets, "Guns" being one of them, to the range, the local VA hospital, a local sporting goods store, etc., and just left them there for anyone who wanted any to take home, free. I wish I had had the time, knowledge, and equipment to make CDs or DVD's of them all, but if wishes were horses, beggars could ride. I honestly believe Ramon Somavia spent the great majority of his experimental time available working with bullets much heavier than 160 grains in the 6.5 m/m bore...... My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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Do yourself a favor and check out the 6.5 grendel, its a great case and should do exactly what your looking for. | |||
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On the Vergueiro the bolt face is .473 ish the Grendel is .439 you could make it work , but it is suboptimal. Also, the action will feed better with longer rounds (without spacer mods to the magazine) Don't get me wrong-- I have a Grendel (in an AR type action)and a Creedmoor, and several other 6.5's. I would just not use it in this instance. His 6.5/250 choice; or a 6.5x52, x54, x55, x57, x58, AAR, etc, etc in this action IMO, are better choices. DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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Is the Verqueiro made for rimmed, semi-rimmed, or rimless case? If you want to recreate the 6.5 Japanese, it can be formed from .303 British. That should be a readily available case for you. Turn the rim down to .475 or .473 if that's what the Vergueiro requires and neck the Brit down in steps. You can start with a 308 Win die with the expander button removed, then a 7/08 die, then a 6.5 Jap die. Yes it's a bit bigger in the head than samples of the Jap case you'll find, but it will fit a Arisaka chamber, as they were large, for dirty ammo. I've done it with both the 30/40 Krag and .303 British. In fact several years ago I wrote Norma about the woefully undersized 6.5 Jap they were selling on the American market, and their 6.5 Jap now has the same head size as the .303 British. To have a peep at that go to: http://www.norma.cc/content.as...20Japanese%20Arisaka | |||
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After studying the 6.5 Jap cartridge design and performance level with a 140 grain bullet, it might well be that you are looking at an optimum light weight, low recoil rifle for deer size animals out to ,perhaps, 200 yds. 
Definitely in the winner catagory IMHO 
roger