Both are gaining my interest.Any opinions of any advantages that may favor one or the other.The 20 Tactical in Cooper has my eye however when the 204 comes out I realize in will be in a more standard factory offering.However though one comes from a 223case and the other from a 222Mag case would assume velocities and accuracy should be comparable?Im not going to get in a hurry but would be interested in hearing any pros and cons.

I have a Varmint Synthetic Remington sent to Pac-Nor for their 26 inch Super Match 3 groove barrel. I installed a Kepplinger single set trigger that breaks 3oz set and 2lbs un set. Optics are Leupold 6X20 with target turrets. I know a lot of BS gets slung on various sites but in all honesty this rifle shoots better than I ever expected. I'm sure some of it's it's Remington platform trued and pillar bedded, but this thing shoots. It's working load is enough H4198 under a 33 grain V-Max to get 4,250ish and shoot 5 shot groups at 100 in the .2's to .4's.

F.Y.I.-- The Tact.20 was developed by Todd Kindler (at "Small Caliber News"). I haven't seen the .204 Ruger yet, but I think the feeling amoungst small caliber wildcaters (me for sure) is that the Tactical .20 would have made more sense. I'm sure Ruger however wanted a propiatary round and not to have to share the credit with Todd, hince the tripple duce mag, and in talking to em their real vague about that. I guess it's big status to create a round, otherwise their just rifle producers.

At any rate for the handloader the availability of top quality .223 brass is huge. I use IMI, Lake City, and Lapua, as well as all the usual suspects.

If what I,m hearing is true the .204 might have the potential to be a little faster, but at 4,250 so what?

Your choice of the Cooper is wise, I have several and even though one took a little tweaking they both are solid sub half inch shooters. If you do have a problem with a Cooper call Rob over there at Cooper and you can count on the fact he'll fix it! With all due respect to Ruger lovers, my feelings are that your about 600percent more likely to get a 1/2 inch Cooper than a 1/2 inch Ruger plus if you do it'll still be a Ruger.

I'd suggest a 1 in 12 twist if you want to take advantage of the new 40 grainers, a 1 in 13's probably going to be a little faster with the 33's but won't like the 40 worth a hoot. Berger, Russ Lucas and some others make some wonderful custom .20's and fortunately the 33grain V-Max is a tack driver. ( it's about to be dropped when they bring out the 32 grainer also a 40 V-Max coming)

Last time at the range my rifle shot a 5 shot 300 yard group at a painted steel gong, the group traced 1.1 inches, the rounds hit the gong so fast the guy 2 benchs down stopped what he was doing and came over to see what the hell I was shooting. 2 inchs high at 100 hits about a 1/2 inch high at 300 and about 6 low at 400, you can see the hits in the scope. I use just over 24 grains of powder! You think the shooting public got stood on it's ear with the .17 HMR, wait'll next year. This is about as much fun as a guy can have with his pants on!---Shoot Safe---montdoug

Thanks for the reply Montdoug.Very direct and answered a lot of questions that have been rolling around in my head.I really like the Pac-Nor concept as I just had a good experience with them this fall on a Rem Mod7LSS that would not shoot out of the box.A fellow named Rich went the whole nine yards and sent it back to me shooting factory loads as good as I can brag about.Anyway for that reason I have real confidence in those people.Back to the 20tactical everything you mentioned makes sense to me.In fact at this point I am inclined to do as you did and start looking for a Rem VS in 223Cal.This would also give me a multi shot option for coyote hunting situations as I have been known to miss on the first.Did you have the duplicate the Rem.factory barrel contour or chose another.Would imagine if I tried to build a walking varminter on say a mod7 the barrel would have too much of tendency to heat up an walk bullets.So many questions would enjoy if I had your phone no and could take up a few minutes of your time but can understand if you prefer not.Thanks again. plainsdrifter20@hotmail.com

Hey drifter, sent ya my #'s if ya didn't get em let me know, I,m e-mail challenged.Look forward to talkin to ya.---Shoot Safe---montdoug

Go with the 20 TAC! My buddy has a Cooper Varminter and with a 3X9 Scope (his 6.5X20 Leupold is at the factory for modified reticle), he shot a 5 shot group that looked like someone had poked a single hole in the target with one of those "fat" pencils they used to make me use in grade school. I IMMEDIATELY sent my .223 XP to PacNor and called CD4 to order dies. I can't wait.

Your suggestion must be a good omen.
Shtrangely enough I just had a Cooper Montana Varminter in 20 Tact .follow me home last weekend.GEEEEEZ.

I am waiting, I had a #1 sitting around to catch a super fast barrel burner, but I waited and traded it off. I am thinking the 204 would kick but in a #1 with laminate stocks (6.5-20 Luepold talley rings canjar trigger two tone Kg coating but I have not give much thought LOL). The numbers on the 20 Tactical are sweet. I thinnk it will come down to what do you like to say,"Twenty Tactical or 204 Ruger".

20 Tactical will be king. .223 brass is plentiful and easy to find. .222 brass can be found, but not as easily. Ruger's will start selling at "suggested retail" and will ration them out to dealers. So they will be expensive at first. The smart guy will find a used .223 (such as an ADL) and have it blue printed and rebarreled to .20 Tac and away we go.

20 Tactical will be king. .223 brass is plentiful and easy to find. .222 brass can be found, but not as easily. Ruger's will start selling at "suggested retail" and will ration them out to dealers. So they will be expensive at first. The smart guy will find a used .223 (such as an ADL) and have it blue printed and rebarreled to .20 Tac and away we go. Ruger should have just given Todd his propers and brought out the .20 TAC.

20 Tactical will be king. .223 brass is plentiful and easy to find. .222 brass can be found, but not as easily. Ruger's will start selling at "suggested retail" and will ration them out to dealers. So they will be expensive at first. The smart guy will find a used .223 (such as an ADL) and have it blue printed and rebarreled to .20 Tac and away we go. Ruger should have just given Todd Kindler his propers and bring out the .20 TAC.

Good for you Drifter, as you probably surmised I love my Tact.20. Keep me posted how it shoots. What brass ya using? Midway has a close out on the 33 grain V-Max, Mid South has em priced well also. After the .17 HMR shortage a guy can't be too careful, Hornady says 32's and 40's be here in March but who knows? My rifle shoots the 33's so well I got a bunch of em( about a barrels worth I figure), Mid South gives ya a free Hornady tee shirt with 10 boxes.---Shoot Safe---montdoug

[ 12-09-2003, 07:06: Message edited by: montdoug ]

I think the 12 and maybe even a 13 twist will stabilize the Hornady 40 grainer. I know conventional wisdom recommends a 10 twist, but I think there is reason to doubt that.

Jordan

Jordan, 12's will, 13's marginal. Greg Tannel of Gre-Tan rifles told me the 1 in 13's are a little faster with the 33's however and if 40's 45's and the new Berger 50's(1 in 9 recommended) aren't important to ya might be a good choice. Hornady has a 40 grainer coming and my choice was a 1 in 12, should get close to 3,900 with it. ---Shoot Safe---montdoug

Mountdog,

I will definitely defer to Greg Tannel's judgment on twist rate. I think he probably knows more about the .20 TAC, twist rates, etc. than just about anyone. Any idea what will be the B.C. on that Hornady bullet?

Jordan

Montdoug, All these options are making me anxious to do some experimenting and load workup!
However for this winter gonna have to keep chasing coyotes while the weather permits.
Probobly wont get going till this next spring but will keep absorbing info in the meantime.
Will let you know whats shaking as soon as I get around to doing some actual load testing.
Again thanks for past info.

Jordan, I've yet to hear the real numbers but with the 33's close to .200 and the V-Max shape I would guess .230 to .250. I've still yet to hear if it's a boat tail. A .20BR with a 1 in 9 shooting Bergers new 50 at close to .300 ought to reach out and touch em. But alas I'm a tight-wad and with Hornadys at 12 and change a box and shooting like they do the 20 dollar Bergers lose some of their luster.---Shoot Safe---montdoug

i was told it was a simple neckdown, thus the beauty of it...
woofer

MHO,

The Tactical is a necked down .223 case that has had the shoulder bumped back very slighlty to create a longer neck, and the angle changed to 30 degrees. Most of the orginal taper is maintained. Seems like the diameter at the shoulder only changes by .006" or so over the standard .223. Like was mentioned, it is a simple neck down procedure. The round feeds great, at least according to anyone I have discussed this with. Some of the improved versions with most of the taper removed will not feed as well as the Tactical.

I am well pleased with mine. Shot a bobcat two weeks ago and a small buck last week.

Mike Johnston

Thanks guys! It does indeed make the 20T a lot more attractive if the case forming procedure is as simple as possible.
- mike

If you look at the Ruger website it seems that the fact they make firearms is almost hidden, or secondary. That and their "arms makers for responsible citizens" indicate to me that PC concerns precluded the use of something named the Tactical Twenty. It sure would have made sense to adopt it though. Mike.

Is the 20Tactical standardized to the point that one can get dies, chamber reamers and loading data?.....where can I get loading data?....I have a ton of .223 cases!!!

Read again Texas, it's .222 mag brass big difference in availabiliy between it and the plain .222. Only maker is Remington and it's out of date.

MY APOLIGIES. JUST ANOTHER CASE OF OPEN MOUTH INSERT FOOT. HOWEVER THERE IS PLENTY OF THE DUECE MAG CASES OUT THERE, JUST LOOK IN THE MIDWAY MAGS UNDER REM BRASS AND YOU CAN PURCHASE A BOX OF 500 CASES FOR AROUND 100$. A SIMPLE CALL VERIFIED THE AVAILABILITY. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY OUTDATED?

I like the idea of picking up a $500 rifle and 5 or 6 boxes of ammo slap a scope on top and I'd be set.

It doesn't like that would be possible with the 20 tact.

I am sure my needs are bit different from most. I simply would like 1" at 100 yards which I have gotten with the rugers I have owned before (1 300win and two 338 win mags).
I would mostly be using it for plinking, rabbit,grouse squirrel. Head shots of course and mostly under 100 yards.

I just like the velocity and teeny bullets.

Hey Texas, only that nobodys producing Triple Duce mag rifles, so Remington doesn't make much brass for it which drives the cost up. They do make a .20 wildcat on the .222 called the .20 VTT or .20 VarTarg Turbo. It was developed by Todd Kindler and friends at the Wood Chuck Den as was the Tactical.20. With the .222 based wildcats as with the ones using the .223 there are numerous companies making brass, including some top quality European companies like Norma and Lapua. Sure makes it easy to build the kind of consistent ammo necessary to get the best out of a custom rifle type rifle when your not fighting problem brass.



RMiller, sounds like the .204 will serve you well. What a rocket, you'll love it! We all pic-nits over personal favorites but the real difference between most of em isn't really much. The .204 in a straight shooting Ruger will probably do better than an inch and you'll be amazed how fast it hits the target, and best yet you'll see it in the scope.

Who is CD4? I don't think I'm familiar with them, unless that's just shorthand for something else.

I am guessing this: http://www.ch4d.com/ ,BirdColonel.

OK, so I'll admit to being uneducated, but I tried - honestly! I went to the "20's website" mentioned above, and looked around, I looked with Google, still no luck. So, one of you guys, please explain: is a 20Tactical simply a .223 necked down (no other changes), or is the 20T *based* on a .223 - i.e. with shoulder moved, fireformed, what have you?? What are the steps you have to go through to form 20T brass from .223 Rem??

- mike