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| One of Us |
After finding a box of old 120gr hp's I called Hornady today to ask a tech their thoughts on this round in a 257 Roberts. My biggest concern was the fact that I have heard both positive and negative answers about whether or not this bullet is too tough for Roberts velocities. His answer was that it did not matter. He went on to explain that if the bullet did not expand it would tumble through an animal and do massive damage. I was literally speechless. So that's probably the last time I call Hornady for info. Perry | ||
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Strange answer. I was going to take the my 257 Roberts on an Axis hunt and Hornady tech was a Bob fan and said it would work perfectly and should expand down to about 1800 fps. I've only used that bullet once on small whitetail. 100 yard high shoulder shot. Bang, flop right through both shoulders. I only had one box when they discontinued it so I sent it to a guy on another forum. He said it was the only bullet that shot well in one of his rifles. | |||
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the 120 hp was supposed to be the toughest bullet they made for the 25 cal. I haven't shot anything with it in the 25-06 [one of them loves the bullet one of them don't]but I have shot 3 deer with it in the 257 Bob. I got no complaints about it's performance. it MIGHT? even have tumbled on the one I shot through the grass [shrug] but dead is dead. | |||
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| One of Us |
Handload a few with muzzle velocities starting slightly below the impact velocity at the max range you expect to see for deer and then on up to about your 50 yard velocity. Then line up 6-8 gallon (or larger) water-filled jugs and shoot. Chances are you will recover bullet fragments, expanded bullets and, maybe, a tumbled bullet. Yes the bullet will tumble, and it will cause a bunch of damage, but we don't count that as a reliable hunting outcome. Use undamaged jugs for each shots. This will give you a very good idea of how well the bullets will work. Send us pix of your set up and results. PS I have done this routine and it works. I will admit that lining up the jugs can get tedious. | |||
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I have killed a lot of big deer and antelope with that bullet in the .25-06 and it is my favorite in that cal. I load it to around 3000 fps and it has never failed to perform. I would think it would be just fine in a .257. C.G.B. | |||
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Sometimes the people they put on the phone aren't chosen for their knowledge. Many years ago (not long after Trophy Bonded was bought by Federal) another member and I ended up with some 30 caliber bullets with diameters ranging from .307 to .3095 in the same box. They shot like crap. When we began emailing to ask about replacements we were told by the tech guy that multiple diameters were necessary to accommodate the barrel tolerances of different manufacturers. I kid you not. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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uhhh.. | |||
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This is more to the point of my post. I did some internet digging and got sufficient info. I could'nt believe the answer he gave me. Perry | |||
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In 2017 a tech for a leading bullet manufacturer would suggest a tumbling bullet is an acceptable outcome. Geesh. Perry | |||
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The 120 Hornady INterlocks work on about every animal Ive seen shot with them..Interlocks just work, end of story on my part...I used the 120 on deer and elk, many years ago. shot a couple of elk with them and a lot of deer. Same with the 117 gr. both RN and Spitzers. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Ditto on the 120HP in my .257 Weatherbys, accurate, excellent penetration and good not excessive expansion. I found a Hornady press release from the late 1970s in which they stated the bullet was designed for big case .257s like the .25-06 and Weatherby. Winchester loaded a similar 120 HP bullet in their .25-06 ammunition of the period. At least no one in the thread has stated that hollow points are not suitable for big game! . | |||
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Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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What is wrong with the Tech's answer ? If that bullet does not expand it will tumble and that is fact ! If it tumbles it will do damage and given a deer sized animal the damage would in all likelihood lead to a fatal wound ! That btw is how bullets have been behaving ever since someone elongated the round ball to a oblong projectile ! Hornady has been testing their bullets by professional ballisticians , so has Barnes and now for the first time we are seeing reports on how they behave in simulants done under lab conditions ! | |||
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Are you saying that there is no chance that the bullet could pencil through on a broadside lung shot? | |||
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Are you saying that there is no chance that the bullet could pencil through on a broadside lung shot? No I did not say that ! I said if the HP bullet does not expand it will tumble ! This is a well documented problem / phenomenon A HP bullet that does not open up because the aperture is to small as in the case of Sierra MK the bullet behaves like a FMJ and it will tumble in accordance with it's geometric data ie the ratio of its length of tip to centre of gravity to transverse moment of inertia . Now in pure lung , no skin,no ribs, no muscle, the distance from impact to tumble would be longer than pure muscle ( this is due to the mass density difference between lung and muscle. Lung = 230 kg / cubic m vs muscle which is 1060 kg / cubic m ( fat = +/- 900 kg / cubic m ) Bullet on left = Barnes TSX Match 168 gr Bullet on right = Sierra 270 MK The difference in aperture size is obvious in the case of the 30 cal Sierra MK the bullet does not open up and it behaves like a solid and it will tumble in muscle like density visco elastic medium ! Interesting is that in 5.56 mm ( .223) the Sierra MK almost always expands and even blows apart completely  | |||
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Factors that have an effect on distance that it takes for a FMJ to tumble: Lnc is the distance from impact to where tumbling motion is present. Angle of attack in degrees / velocity in m/s  Distance to tumbling vs target density as expressed in Coefficient of drag  McCoy Angle of attack as function of distance from muzzle. Here we see why bullets fired a varying distances would tumble a different depths based on their angles of attack  | |||
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Your comment was “if not A then B” If it don’t expand, it WILL tumble, without caveats. Sorry, but absolute statements are pretty much always wrong. | |||
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Yes and I stand by it ! | |||
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Yup. We've had this discussion before. Tumble also means "turn over" and can thus mean exiting point first just like it entered folks. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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hmmm..you said it...then you said you didn't say it...then you said you stand by it??? ok | |||
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I believe that Hornady does not produce the 120 HP as it once did. Sierra produces one....or is it Speer?????....anyway the comment from the (so called) tech at Hornady is not at all supportable.....such an answer would cause me to lose some confidence in their product.....but they still make great bullets in spite of it all. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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It certainly supports the mind set of questioning the experts and getting info from more than one source  .Perry | |||
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Several years ago I called the “experts” at Sierra. The guy I got was pretty clueless, and didn’t seem to know their product line very well. I discounted everything he said when I found out that Sierra was using non-employees who answered phone calls forwarded to their homes! Don’t know if they still do. Called Hornady over a decade ago, during the conversation I asked if the velocities in their bullet tables were impact or muzzle velocities just to check on his knowledge. He said “impact”! Another clueless call center operator, but at least he worked at Hornady’s location (I think). . | |||
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Actually it is supportable 30 cal Sierra MK  HP Match bullets are not true HP's in the sense of HP bullets by design. They are HP's by virtue of their manufacturing process and the small aperture left in the nose when the jackets is formed in the press does not act like a HP that is designed to open up. As such these bullets are allowed under the current rules as laid out on the Conventions on land warfare; The US JAG allows their use in warfare. | |||
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The issue of the HP bullet and its solid behaviour requires some clarification. In the study of bullet behaviour it became apparent that certain bullet designs were behaving contra their design purpose in testing. Testing was originally mainly conducted for purposes of military use and specifically to be compliant with international law. Two designs come to mind. First Military FMJ's which break up after impact and secondly hollow points that do not expand but behave like Solids. In the history of Conventions governing use of arms in warfare we see this issue come up in the "Rules" The first convention was the Geneva Convention of 1864 held under auspices of the Red Cross. What followed was the St Petersburg declaration, the Brussels convention followed by the First Hague convention, all before 1900 These specifically banned the use of expanding, exploding or fragmenting bullets. The British circumvented the provisions by claiming use against "uncivilized" people ie India and then the Boers in South Africa. The bullets designed by British engineers at Dum Dum in India were used in India and in South Africa. The British having knowledge that FMJ bullets tumble in target enhanced this effect by filling the Tip of the Mk 7 303 bullet with wood pulp and later aluminium pushing the CG back and making it even more unstable. We then also see that when some models of the FMJ tumble in target they break up under stress Some like the 30 cal will break up in two and the little 5.56 will disintegrate in multiple fragments. This is contra their design but still legal. The Latest versions of the Geneva convention (1980) added a new provision and that is proof of behaviour in target by valid simulation. Ie a FMJ can no long be used as a FMJ if it breaks up when tumbling. Under the same Rule of testing then the JAG allows for the use of the Target HP such as the 30 cal Sierra MK. Testing shows that though its design is contra the original rules its tested behaviour is like a FMJ. Now for the caveat ! the same design shot from a 223 fragments under simulation and is thus illegal for use in warfare. | |||
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The HP being talked about is an Interlock Hunting bullet, it's not a match bullet. It was designed to open. This is the response I received from Hornady via email January 2015 when asking how easily the 120 HP will open. Scott, You are talking to a fellow 257 Bob shooter – and I’ve come to learn there are not many of us out there! That 120gr HP does a number on animals for sure. Because it does not have a polymer tip to force that expansion, impact velocity is a bit higher than our SST’s and I would not recommend taking shots where impact velocity dips below 1850fps, which should put you at about a 400 yards maximum distance. Thank you and good shooting! | |||
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| one of us |
Hornady's 120 gr FB HP was introduced in 1971 and was designed by Joyce Hornady specifically for Remington's new 25-06 commercially introduced in 1970. The intent of the bullet was specifically designed as a accurate long range medium game bullet. The criticism of Speer's version of the same was that the aperture was to large and the jacket to thin so the bullet behaved like a long range varmint bullet with violent massive expansion. The Speer HP was a 100 gr bullet. Hornady had a varmint version in the ligher 75 gr offering in HP and it had a very light jacket To bring the 120 gr up to medium game standard the aperture was made very small and the jacket was beefed up. Old advertisements of this bullet touted it as having "Match grade jackets" So was all happy with Hornady's bullet ? No ! we see anecdotal reports in gun rags by hunters and shooters reporting failure to expand or alternatively violent expansion when shot at high velocity from the 257 Weatherby. The violent expansion is not so much a issue , not unexpected one could argue. The lack of expansion on the other hand a concern to hunters believing that the bullets would "pencil through". Of particular concern to those who make bullets for law enforcement this phenomenon of "plugging" of the aperture or the aperture simply closed down by impact a concern ! Bullets designed to open up without shooting through a intended target now acting like a solid after encountering barriers like dry wall or particle board. The forensics and terminal ballistics literature cover the subject quite well ! | |||
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| one of us |
I have used the 120gr Hornady HP extensively over the last 25 years in a 257 AI. It has performed perfectly on dozens of deer. Good expansion and penetration. Typical Interlock performance. The only one I ever recovered looked like a Hornady ad. Never a “blowup” and never a pencil through. Speaking of pencilling through, you mentioned that possibility in your last post, but that couldn’t happen, because if it doesn’t expand the bullet would ALWAYS tumble, right? | |||
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yep if it does not expand and does not fragment it tumbles unless off course its a round ball we are shooting if it did not tumble then we would need worry about rifled barrels would we  | |||
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| One of Us |
He's going to drop some science on you! I saw the same thing but I'm not smart enough to follow his posts. I just know a lot of people think their bullet penciled trough based solely on the exit. Many don't skin their game and drop it at the processor. Hides stretch so you often find devastating exits under the hide. | |||
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I don’t doubt they can tumble, or perhaps more often than not, they tumble. It’s the absolute, always, 100% every time, no matter the resistance, that I question. | |||
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olarmy: Again you willfully miss and twist what I stated, and specifically the issue of resistance. Our targets in question are living mammals and as such they are made up of a admixture of tissues of varying density and mechanical property. I state that there is no rate of twist from a barrel in a conventional gun that has the capability of spinning a typical bullet fast enough to give gyroscopic stability in the living target ! Without the counter of a effective gyroscopic force the typical bullet that does not expand or fragment will flip Muscle is a thousand times more dense than air !  And this is why:    | |||
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Double edged sword and double edged answers..Alf is safe in saying will tumble, even a soft point will usuallm tumble the last inch or so if it doesn't exit. Everyone Ive cut out of game that showed a bulge in the off side was turned over.. I think one would be better to say a bullet CAN tumble, not WILL tumble...and I have seen more than a few HP and SPs pencil thru a game animal. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Sorry, but I did not misquote what you said. You said:
and then you said:
Those are absolute statements, that a bullet will either expand or it will tumble, leaving NO possibility of any other result, such as penciling through. I have seen enough bullets pencil through, that I know those statements cannot be 100% correct. I would agree with Ray's comment that it would be correct to say a bullet CAN tumbler rather than it WILL tumble. And FWIW, I have taken between 75 to 100 deer with the 120gr Hornady HP and it has always performed perfectly. Have a nice day. | |||
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I'm just guessing here but I think if you called Hornady again you may get a different tech with a different "opinion". I highly doubt the gentlemen that gave you the above response is the total depth of the brain trust at Hornady. | |||
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| one of us |
Lets try again: Conventional "pointy" bullets ie length > diameter with a shaped nose fired nose first show 3 types of behaviours on and after impact. They can deform, they can fragment or they can stay intact and tumble. Unless there is another mode of stabilization present the bullet will tumble in target. What they do not do is pencil through ! The tumbling behaviour is self evident as the bullet loses it's gyroscopic stabilizing effect due to the increase in density of the target. The overturning force is muscle is 400 times greater than the bullets gyroscopic stabilizing force and this overwhelms the stabilizing force so that the bullet exhibits this tumbling behaviour. Put another way: There is no twist rate fast enough from a conventional barrel that has the ability of stabilizing a bullet in a target with the density of living tissue ! The distance it takes for the bullet to start this tumbling motion is dependent on the impact angle of attack and the geometry of the bullet. ie the distance of tip to centre of gravity and the moments of inertia of the bullet. Some here claim they can "see" what their bullets do in deer ? Methinks not because the terminal event occurs over a timespan measured in 1/1000 of a second. A bullet impacting a target at 2000 fps and coming to a dead stop at 12 inches in a target will do this in 0.0005 sec The typical way the event is measured is either by flash X-ray or placing the target in a electromagnetic coil and measuring the deflection of a signal on a oscilloscope when the bullet is fired. Break up behaviour of FMJ's typically occur in 3 ways. If velocities are very high the bullet can break up from nose first typically RN or bluff nosed FMJ's , more commonly is break up when maximum deflexion in direction of travel is reached ie when the bullet is side on and then many will break up from the rear of the bullet once is has gone through 180 deg of rotation. Typical Military FMJ's require about 600m/s to deform or fragment in target equivalent to a density of muscle. HP bullets are typically designed to rapidly expand in target but if the aperture is to small and the jacket to thick the aperture may become plugged or may close by deformation. Such a bullet is then effectively a FMJ and because of the cavity in the nose is highly unstable because the CG is far back in the bullet.  the fired bullets show this behaviour.   this is a TSX fired in hog fuel Wood waste  | |||
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You need to shoot more and cut and paste formulae less. | |||
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Interesting claim, given that we issue that exact bullet in the military. Only Angels and Aviators have wings | |||
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AK-Stick Yes you are correct and the Hague convention of 1980 addresses this. Not only now do they dictate that projectiles may not fragment but they are also placing limitation on how much energy a projectile may transfer to the target. This sound counter intuitive if not outright daft that we employ weapons of war to kill the enemy but we have to be mindful that we do not willfully maim them ? Worse still under the current conventions of war US and allied forces operating in a theater of war do so under guidance of lawyers. It is the name of the game ! | |||
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Given that all of our 5.56 loads fragment, and we issue the exact bullet that you're claiming we can't issue, I'm going to have to go with you're wrong on this one. Only Angels and Aviators have wings | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Small Calibers puzzling answer from a Hornady tech today about the 257 120gr hp
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I'll contribute that negative statement for that Winchester 25-06 hollow point. Some time in the early 80s I shot a beautiful 6 point mule deer with that ammo. 8 hours near evening we found it still alive ; but just. The bullet was perfectly placed and created a terribly large surface wound. It did not hit bone. The spread was close to 34".
Put a bad taste in my mouth for hollow points on large game. There are too many other good bullets to be had.
roger 