if you were to choose a cal. of 25 or more and you could only use 100 gr. or less bullets wich cal would you choose . this is the law in n.j. if you want to go ground hog hunting with a rifle . i also would use this rifle for hunting out of state . possibly deer . under a 25 cal you could use any gr. bullet in your rifle .what cal do you reccomend . thanks Bob

Interesting dilema. Consider that even a .270 Winchester will shoot a 100 gr bullet.

So get a .270 Win. or WSM.

Once you blast a few chucks and there are no complaints about the noise keep going. If there are get a ligher chuck gun later.

BobReed,
25 caliber and 100 gr. bullet restriction? Thats a no brainer......257 Ackley Improved. I've had one for going on 30 years and killed everything from p-dogs to elk. There is no better quarterbore IMHO.

Ding! Lightnin' is correct. Either the 257 or the 257 AI is the correct answer. Thank you for playing. - Dan

I'd use my .25-284. 100 gr. Barnes XLC's for all the big stuff.
Actually mine shoots the 75 gr. Barnes X at the same POI, so I'd probably go for a 75 gr. V-Max, etc for varmits.
Brass is a no brainer. Run whatever 284 case you have through the die and your done. No fire forming, etc. 3300-3400 fps. with the 100 gr. bullets. E

Eremicus,
The 25-284 is a good cartridge but IMO it is not nearly as efficient as the 257 AI. I can get 3400 with the 100 gr. bullets using 53.3 grs. of H-4831. Jim

Gentlemen:

I'd like to tap into the experience on the quarter-bore that is evident in this thread. I'm thinking of building a light mule deer rifle on a short action [I have a Kimber 84M] with a 20-21" tube. I am a huge fan of the .257 Ackley, the concern I have however is that with only a 20 inch barrel, that particular cartridge is simply too much powder. I am wondering if I would be better of with just the .257 Roberts on the argument that the Ackley Improved is simply too overbore for such a short barrel such that the extra powder capacity would be mostly wasted.

I have also considered Duane Spooner's .257 DGR, but if I go that route, why not just go with the .257 Roberts and get a little more powder capacity? Another option is the .250 Savage Ackley Improved. Everyone seems to like this cartridge, but is this cartridge on the small side if my goal is to launch a 100 grain bullet at 3200 fps out of a 20 inch barrel? I would love to be able to shoot 115 grainers at 3000 fps too boot! [Yes, I want it all!] In any event, perhaps that is wishful thinking with only a 20 inch barrel regardless of which case I use. At the same time, I don't want to be ridiculously overbore [well, maybe just a little!].

So, any thoughts as to the best quarter-bore cartridge in a short actioned rifle with a 20 inch tube gunning for mule deer and expected velocities with 100 and 115 grain projectiles is appreciated?

Thanks,

Jordan

The old standard .250-3000 Sav has been doing it's job downing whitetails for almost a 100years now, it gets my vote.

Jordan,
The length of your tube has no bearing on whether or not your cartridge is "overbore" The relationship between bore size and case capacity remains the same regardless of barrel length. A 257 Weatherby is "overbore" with a 20 inch barrel and it is "overbore" with a 40 inch barrel. If you want a short barrelled rifle you will just need to go to a quicker powder. I have a shooter that comes to the range here and he has built a scout rifle on a mauser action and chambered it for 257 Roberts. His tube is only 19 or 20 inches long and he loves it. When he uses 4831 or something slow like that the muzzle flash is excessive but if he uses an appropiate powder the flash is greatly reduced.

Thanks to all for the information. Lightning, regarding my implicit definition of "over bore", I have always understood the term to refer to the inefficiency of too much powder from a given barrel diameter and length of the barrel. As I read your post it seems we might disagree that barrel length is relevant to the definition. The reason I argue that barrel length is relevant is that with a long enough tube, virtually any amount of powder can be burned such that it will give some return in velocity. So, I would argue that barrel length is always relevant to any assessment of whether and to what degree a cartridge is "overbore"; whether it is grossly inefficient.

I have heard it said that all cartridges are "overbore" in the sense that the bore is sufficiently small [and the barrel short enough] relative to the volume of expanding propellant gases to create pressure and thus motivate a projectile to some useful velocity. It seems to be that saying barrel length is irrelevant to an assessment of whether a particular volume of powder and a certain bore diameter are an efficient combination, is tantamount to saying
barrel length exerts no meaningful influence on velocity, [which it obviously does].

This is how I understand the concept.

Sincerely,

Jordan

Gentlemen:

Thanks for the information. It seems to me that there is a very fine balance to be struck here if one intends to chamber a quarter bore in a short tube. Jim, it is clear from your post that every lost inch in length makes alot of difference with a case as large as a 25-06. I suspect the same relationship holds true, more or less, with the .257 Ackley.

I talked with Mark at Kailua Custom and he was very helpful. He does shoot a .250 Savage Ackley and is adamant that he gets 3100 fps from a 19.5" tube with a 100 grain Nosler bullet. I did not have him hooked up to a polygraph [it was a long distance call!], but I have no reason at all to doubt what he says. He really seemed to know what he was talking about and even gave me the load he uses to achieve this velocity.

Sooooo....based on everything I have read I am leaning toward the .250 Ackley Improved, but still have not ruled out the .257 DGR. Will study this a little further and then make a decision.

Again, thanks to all for the information.

Jordan

Jordan,
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I stand by my statement that barrel length has no bearing on whether or not a given cartridge is "overbore".
Jim

I've shot a 25-06 for years with a 100gr ballistic tips. And it is phenomenal on everything from small rodents to mule-deer-of-unusual-sizes, and once an elk too!

Now in a short action, with a short barrel for ground hogs and occasional whitetail deer, I think a .250-3000 Savage would be just perfect!!! Heck, improve the thing if you want. But what a neat, handy, unique, and POTENT little gun that would make! Nevermind how plain fun it would be to own and shoot!!!

When I first started shooting the quarterbore I had great success with the 100gr Speer hollow ponts. And I can testify that at speeds 3200 or less they make a gread dual purpose bullet. Just don't let the big hollow point fool you!

I think you're on to a great idea.

I really enjoyed my 257wby but if I was looking for a quarter bore today I would go with the wsm case necked down to .257.

Jordan,
Which ever one you go with I hope you accomplish your goals. The 250 Ackley would be a good choice but I still like my 257 AI. Ackley himself said the cartridge is ideal capacity for the quarterbore and if Parker said it , I believe it. The man was a genious. Good luck with whatever you choose. Keep us posted.

Holmes,
Where are you located in Wyoming? I lived in Rock Springs for a few years. I sure do miss Big Wonderful.
Jim

Thank you Lightnin.

I too like the .257 Ackley, I am just in a quandry as to where the balance should be struck in terms of case size and barrel length---and let me muddy the waters a bit! It is very, very hard to argue against the 7mm-08, or '08 Improved in a short barreled rifle. I have read others claims that the 7mm bore size gives a real nice return on velocity [for a given volume of powder] in a 20" tube. Problem is, I am just very infatuated with the quarter-bore. I actually have a 7mm-08 tube already for re-barreling, but then the quarter-bore bug bit me. I should probably just flip a coin and get on with it, rather than agonize so much over which cartridge. All advise has been and is appreciated.

Sincerely,

Jordan

Thank all of you for the replies . i now have alot to think about and alot of options . Bob

If you're still thinkin' I'll add my .02 worth.

If you want the short tube, go with the .257 Roberts. It is a no-brainer as was stated in a previous post. Expect something in the range of 3200-3300 fps w/ VMAX 75's or Nosler 85 BT's(read: dead 'hogs) 100 gr deer bullets such as Nosler partitions or X- bullets, should do 3000fps w/ H380 or RX15 without problem. Go with a longer tube then move up to the 257 AI or maybe the 25 Souper(.25-308). The earlier discussion about 'overbore' cartridges is not terribly pertinent in this regard as you'll not shoot out a barrel on 'hogs and deer before you can afford another. Also, the concept of overbore is not well understood for the most part. I think Ackley started this idea and it has merit only in context of today. When he was doing his thing, slow powders were a thing of dreams except for cannon powder(he tried that too), so one quickly entered a realm of diminishing returns by adding powder(25-06) and thus with the powders of today and yesteryear there are limits on what you can achieve without stretching reality. .257 as an example. You can hurt yourself with many powders from then and now w/ that case, yet you can also stuff it full of RX22 and not get hurt. Ackley did not have access to such fuels, so in context the 25-06 was overbore, the Roberts and AI version weren't. At least not by much. Second aspect is that to take advantage of the slow powders, one needs long barrels. Period. There are no slights of hand on this one. It has to do with expansion ratios etc. If you use short tubes on a 7stw you'll find your short is longer than a Roberts short. Every time, and by quite a lot. The 7STW starts to lose everything when the barrel drops to less than 28". Exit pressures exceed 25kpsi, accuracy is adversely affected, and on and on.

Best of luck to you.

If you want to shoot something in .308 it is pretty easy to find Sabots and then there are plenty of good .224 bullets that would do a great job at 4000+fps