I have a Win 70 Featherweight in 257 Roberts. I was thinking of having it Ackley Improved. It currently has a 22" barrel. Is the barrel long enough or should I leave as is? It is primarily being used as a deer rifle. Thanks for the help.

Too short for what?

You will gain proportionately the same amount by going from the standard to the Ackley, no matter what the length of your barrel. I would prefer a 24" barrel in either caliber, but your 50 or so fps gain will be there no matter what the length.

Normally I shoot 4831 behind a 87 grain bullet with my .257Roberts improved. If you are thinking of velocity loss than I would move to a little faster powder like 3031,4895, or 4064 and go up a 1/2 grain at time in test loads. Cases don't last as long when improved so you don't have much to worry about except a little shorter barrel life. Good Luck

I HAVE GOT MY 257 ROBERTS ON REMINGTON M700 ACTIONS UP TO 3000 FPS USING RL22 WITH OK ACCURACY. BUT MY DEER KILLER LOAD IS 120 PARTATIONS WITH 45.0 GR OF IMR 4350 = 2850 FPS AND .6" ACCURACY.

HOW DOES YOUR WINCHESTER 257 SHOOT? A KEN WATERS ARTICLE SAID THEY WOULD NOT SHOOT BULLETS HEAVER THAN 100 GR.

The rifle only has a 1-10 twist (not 1-9), but it doesn't have a problem stabilizing the 120 partition. I have only shot Federal 120 Partition +P and Hornady light magnum 117 to date and they both shoot well. However, the Federal does shoot better than the Hornady. I was thinking about getting into reloading and I thought the 257 Ackley would be a good place to start. I was concerned with the barrel length and I did not know whether the 22" barrel would be optimum or more efficient for the standard or ackley roberts.

Savage 99. Why would you not suggest an improved cartridge?

Thanks for all replies.

Itbball,

Fireformed or as they are misnamed "improved" cartridges in general are more trouble than they are worth. I say this from experiance as I have three of them now.

On one hand it's fun, at first, to fire a standard round in a fire formed chamber and extract the empty and look at the tiny miracle

But after a while it gets old. Factory ammo will shoot at a lower velocity and the case that you fireformed cost you some barrel life to create.

I suggest that you start handloading first. This is quite a hobby and makes shooting far more rewarding. Later as you learn more about the "improved" situation you will be in a positition to appreaciate it. The 22" barrel on your Winchester is just right. Enjoy it.

The most effective way to improve a .257 Roberts is to sell it and buy a 25/06!

Well Okay
I LOVE My .257 Ackley !!!!
It Is A Ruger 1B-26" Barrel , Rechambered It Back
In 1985. It Will Still Shoot 3/4" Groups @ 100 yds.I Have Two Loads That Have Served Me Well Over The Years : The Sierra 90gr HP And The Nosler 120gr Partion , Both Loads Are With IMR 4831. 90gr Load Chronographs @ 3600fps,120gr Nosler Chronos @ 3100 .
BUTT It Is A RELOAD ONLY Caliber,No Factory Loads Availeable.So Become Familiar With Reloading Your Own Ammunition FIRST.
I Shoot Several WILDCATS And It Can Be Very Pleasing To 'ROLL YOUR OWN AMMO',But It Takes Time And Effort To Get Them Just Right-Just Another Excuse To Go Shoot More Often

Aw Hot Core. You caught me in a slip up. Not my first. I am trying to call improved cartridges fireformed cartridges and now I have coined a new chamber!

I would agree with the idea that you start reloading for your 257 Roberts first- kinda get your feet wet, before you jump into a cartridge that you must reload for to benefit from the increased case capacity. I think everyone deserves at least one "improved" or wildcat cartridge in their gun case, but I also feel you should learn the basics first, and the 257 is an easy to work with, very forgiving cartridge for a person to gain experience with, after all you might discover that you don't like to reload.

www.duanesguns.com

Hey Don, I occasionally see some Loads listed on the Reloading Board that "could" create a Fire Formed Chamber.

I kind of figured you would be happy I didn't point out to ltbball the significant advantage of just stepping on up to a "good old" Belted Case - 257WbyMag.

Speaking of Belted Cases, I got tired of waiting for you to jump into the "Do we need Magnums" thread on the Reloading Board and already started working you over there about them. Hurry up and get there! It's just not the same without your thoughts on Belted Cases!

[ 01-06-2003, 18:49: Message edited by: Hot Core ]

I'm with Luther I LOVE MY 257AI & THE 7x57AI. My 257 sports a 22" barrel and it works fine for everything from chucks to Mule Deer. My favorite deer load is IMR 4350 and 115gr NBT.

reload,
I need to disagree with the statement regarding case life and improved cartridges. In fact it is just the opposite, they last longer than the standard brass. There is also an added benefit in that the improved brass all but eliminates case triming. My cases get trimed after fireforming and then don't require another trim for as many as 5 or 6 firings. I have a 257 imp. on a Rem. 700 Classic with a 24" barrel. Heavier bullets are not a problem for the 257 imp., in fact, my rifle will not shoot 100gr. bullets from any company but will shoot the 117gr. Hornady SST into .75" groups all day. All of that accuracy plus the velocity is over 3000fps. It's not a 25-06, but its pretty damn close! Antelope beware!
Elk Country

[ 01-08-2003, 21:16: Message edited by: Elk Country ]

Elk Country,
I will join you in disagreeing with reload about the brass not living as long. I would also like to add that my 257 AI has a 26 in. tube and gives up nothing to the 25-06 in fact it rivals the 257 Weatherby and is much more efficient with the powder it burns. It burns the powder in the case and not out on the lands and grooves thereby extending barrel life. If there is a down side to making a 257 Roberts a 257 Ackley I don't have a clue what it might be. Jim

I have the same case but with a 6.5mm pill. A 22" berrel will do fine but the 26" will do beter. Mine has a 20" barrel.

Lots of missinformation here. Improved cases will last much longer than the standard case. Even the 220 Swift improved will stop cases from growing. I have a few 22-250 Ackleys and 6mm Ackleys and the cases have been loaded as many as twenty times without trimming or any other failures.

The 257 Ackley is the most "improved" of all the Ackleys. The performance advantages are amazing.

The 257 Weatherby mag will burn 52% more powder and using a 4" longer barrel will get you 200 FPS increase!

The 257 Roberts Ackley will give you 3350 fps out of a 22" barrel with only 44.5 grains of powder with a 100 gr bullet. Amazing!

Pick up a copy of the Jan/Feb Rifle Shooter magazine. Excellent article written by George Calef that will make you a believer.

Hot Core,

I have not read anything yet on the Do We Need Magnums yet so I can't even comment here either. But I have them and I don't "need" them but being American I have stuff because I "want" it.

On case stretching. They all stretch! Being improved or not does not matter much. For instance the regular 30/06 case will not stretch in the body if the headspace is normal. This fact pretty well settles it. Measure your case length before and after sizing. That's what stretches cases.

Those miracle reports of a .257 Ackley being so hot is just baloney. They just load up the improved cartridge to higher pressures or use a drop tube and fill it tight with slow powder. Thing vary also, fast barrels, temperatures etc.

Savage 99 - sorry but you just could not be more wrong. Improved cases, and with the 257 AI, it is definitely an improvement, cases usually do last longer. They stretch less. Some of them, such as the 257 AI, offer a significant performance increase. The very first rifle I built for myself was a .257 AI. It was outstanding. I have built and shot hundreds of improved rifles over the past 21 yrs. They can be quite spectacular. They are not for everybody, and I would even agree, to a certain point, that they are not really necessary. However, to try and say that some of them don't work better than the parent cartridge is ridiculous. It's been proven over and over. If you don't want to use them, fine, but they sure work for a whole lot of other people.

John Lewis,

Since a standard 30/06 does not stretch in the body upon firing with the correct headspace and using a action that locks up at the front there is nothing to improve. Nor do they stretch in FL sizing when the die is set correct so then the body taper and shoulder angle on that world standard must be adequate. Improving that case to the 40 degree version does nothing but raise the velocity 75 fps after burning more powder. The necks of the "improved" version stretch the same as the orginal after neck or FL sizing.

Now the 300 H&H is different situation. It has in essence no shoulder. It's angle is only 8 degrees and no matter what you do that case will thin in the web. So there is a necessary angle to a shoulder that must be around 15 degrees to prevent body stretching. Again all sized necks stretch when conventional methods are used.

So we are both right on stretching but the 257 RR is not a good example as the parent cartridge has an adequate shoulder.

As to velocity I have never seen any increase due to anything but more case capacity.

Thus the bottom line on improved cartridges is that they are a complete waste of money. What am I going to do with the JC Higgins M 51 now that I had it screwed up and "improved" to the 30/06 version? I have lost money and gained 75 fps! What will you offer me for it now? How much money? The barrels roll marks no longer line up. Now I have to fireform cases and if I shoot the regular 30/06 in there I get 300 Savage performance! The bullets also hit way low.

I suppose the action is worth something as it's an FN. But the complete rifle is now almost impossible to sell.

Savage99 - the bottom line is that you are making a generalization that simply doesn't wash. I will wholeheartedly agree with you that some of the improved chamberings aren't enough of an improvement to make them worthwhile; .30-06 Ackley, 7mm-08 Ackley, .308 Improved. The expansion ratio of the parent cases makes any improvements minimal. However, many of them such as the .22-250 Ackley, .243 Ackley, .250 Ackley, .257 Ackley, and .280 Ackley all have significant gains in velocity.

If you are building a rifle to sell, I will absolutely agree with you that a factory chambering will hold it's value better. If you are building a rifle to shoot and plan to keep it, then chamber it for whatever you want. I, to be perfectly honest, stay away from the improved cartridges more and more. But my reasoning is different. Any rifle I build for myself is liable to be sold at any time and a potential customer might not want to handload.

A lot of guys like to tinker with their rifles and get the most they can out of them. Improved cartridges are great for them. Itbball's case is the perfect setup for an improved chambering. He wants more velocity out of the rifle he already has without re-barrelling it. The .257 Ackley will help him out.

This member does not even reload!

Steps in progression.

1. Factory rifle and ammo..............................................
2. Handload factory rifle and handload............
3. Try X bullets and give up......................
4. Miss deer with 257 Roberts and blame the load..
5. Read about how even a miss with an Ackley Improved cartridge gets the game as some guy shot a tree down behind a deer with one and the deer ran up to him and he got it on the next shot......
6. Get 257 RR rechambered to the improved version.
7. Spend the next summer in bliss looking at the cool shape that ejects from the chamber.
8. Hunt all season with it and don't get a shot...
9. Hear from buddies that they are going out west for some nice deer hunting.
10. Sell .257 Improved for $250 and get a .270 that you should have got in the first place.

Savage99 - I would definitely agree with you that any improved cartridge is not the one to learn reloading on.

I'm going to have to throw my 2 cents in here. I had a 30-06imp. built last summer on a Rem. 700 BDL and I am getting 2950fps. from a 180gr. Hornady (24" barrel). The last time I checked my loading records I was getting right around 2750fps. from the same gun in the standard chambering (22" barrel). That's a 200fps. increase with NO pressure signs at all! All of this talk about the '06imp. not being worth the trouble, time and money in my opinion is a bunch of BS, I'm happy with the end result. It's absolutely an improvement and I have the chrony records to prove the data. I think it's going to be the ultimate elk cartridge for me. It will produce velocities that better the 300 H&H and I don't have to mess with that stupid belt!
I also have a 257 rob. imp. and my loads with 117gr Hornady SSTs are right at 3100fps. That's about 200fps. faster than the standard RR. Also a smart move on my part to go ahead and rechamber that rifle. If I had the chance to start over, I would also have my Savage 112 .223rem. chambered to the improved round but I already have 1500 pieces of fireformed brass. Oh well, I guess I can't have everything!
Elk Country

[ 01-13-2003, 20:27: Message edited by: Elk Country ]

Savage 99- I don't see how you can say the Improved version of a cartridge is a waste of time and money. If someone wants a 270 then fine buy a 270, if they want to tinker with reloading to find something a little different then a 257 AI might be just the ticket. I happen to have three wildcats and enjoy them very much. The brass from my 257 & 7X57 Ackley's never seem to need trimming and I check the case length after 5 or 6 loadings. Both these offer significant increase in velocity. Your opinions are yours and your entitled to them. Rember this though opinions are like assholes as everyone has one.

Elk Country - your rifle is getting a bit more than most .30-06 Ackley's do, which is great. 200 fps is nothing to sneeze at. Your .257 AI seems to be right on with all of the others I've seen. It is an impressive cartridge, no matter what anyone says.

Savage99,
Only an idiot would take step #10 in your little scenario above. Going from a 257 AI to a 270 would surely be a step backwards.

As far as I'm concerned, 22'' barrel is too short for any rifle. I'd rather have 24, and 26 for the magnums, can't tell any difference in handling, just more velocity and hold better offhand.

I have a Ruger LW with standard 20" barrel that has been rechamberd from .257 Roberts to .257
Ackley Imp. It took quite a bit of different loads but with RL 19 and 120 grain Speer Bullets
I can get 2925 fps with good case life.

Itbball: FYI, I ran some numbers thru Quickload and came up with the following: Assuming a 100 gr Sierra bullet seated to SAAMI specs and using 42.9 grs. of IMR-4895, a 24" barrel would give 3096 FPS while a 22" barrel gives 3028 FPS.
Going to 52 grs. of H-4831SC with the 100 gr. bullet, the 22" barrel gave 2892 FPS and the 24" barrel gave 2967 FPS. Hope this gives you an idea of what you could expect. Bear in Fairbanks

[ 02-14-2003, 00:11: Message edited by: Bear in Fairbanks ]