Hey guys, i'm new to the forums and look forward to being a part of this site.
After 25 years of plinking with a .22LRRF i'm moving up. I'm looking for a centrefire rifle to knock off rabbits and foxes out to 250 metres tops.
I'll need to be mobile as walking will be a big part and also spotlighting from a vehicle. I won't be shooting more than 2-3 rounds at a time and then there'll be time for the barrel to cool.

I have my eye on either the Savage 16FHSS in .223 Remington or the Tikka T3 Lite stainless in .223 Remington. The other option is the Tikka T3 Varmint stainless in same.

I will start with factory loads to get some brass and then reload in a few years time.

What's the main reason for a heavy barel over pencil barrel and what do you guys think of these rifles for what i'm planning on doing?

Thanks guys.
Matt.

.223 is really a perfect round for what you are talking about. Ammo is cheap and it's a superb varminter.

Heavy barrel vs. thin. Do you intend to benchrest the rifle or carry it? Thinner barrels = less weight = an easier weapon to carry.

Heavy barrels are stiffer and may be more accurate. I've seen plenty of thin barrel rifles shoot 1/4" moa at 100 yards so given the distances you are talking about (relatively short) I'd say that a thin barrel will serve you just fine. Especially if you were looking for a "walkabout" type of rifle.

On the other hand if you were benchrest shooting or not planning to carry the rifle much more than around the back of your truck for a stable rest, then a heavy barrel would be just fine.

IMO, hunting rifles are light. And you DID say you need to be mobile...

(just as a backup to the caliber, I regularly shoot a .35 Remington chambered Marlin 336 ss ltd lever action guide gun. It's a stubby 18.5" barrel. I have a handloaded 125gr hp pistol bullet over a bit of imr 4895 at around 2300fps. Silly load groups 1/2" at 100 yards. I've shot bunnies at over 200 yards with confidence many a time. Just goes to show that you don't need a whole lot of gun given the ranges you are talking about.)

I have a T3 Varmint Stainless and for the money it is superb. It will shoot small one hole 5 shot groups all day long reguardless of what it is fed.

At 3.6kgs (8 pounds) it isn't to heavy to carry around, unless you are climbing up and down mountains all day. I have taken roos, foxes, cats, hares, crows and small pigs with mine.

Tikka's come with Sako barrels and the superb Sako trigger which is one of the best factory triggers avaliable. Tikka's shoot superbly straight from the box, all you have to do is lighten the trigger, a 2 minute job.

In my oppinion they are the best value for money by a long shot.

A sporter weight .223 will do you fine. Milsup and re-manufactured ammo is so cheap you may not need to reload (bite my tongue). Don't go for any exotic twist or heavy bullets. Get a 1/12 or 1/14 and shoot 50 or 55gr bullets and you will have a ball.

I'd lean toward the Savage...I have always liked Tikkas, but not the new ones..

Access to the magazine is too limited in my opinion, in case of a jam or problem...

Both are good choices tho, as both will be very accurate, and with a synthetic stock you can bang them around all day long, and not worry....

223 chambering is a good choice over a 243 or 22.250 if you are going to shoot alot...

I don't know if they are available down in OZ, but look at Savage's Predator in 223 or 204 ( if you prefer that round, I don't myself)... that is just one neat camo'ed and easy carry, nicely balanced package...

I does have a one in 9 twist, which will allow you to shoot heavier bullets up to 80 grains, which doubles the range on a 223...only draw back is the one in 9 will vaporize real fragile bullets like Sierra's Blitz and Hornady's SPSXs.. but beyond that, you gain a lot of flexibility with the ability to shoow 68, 69, 75, 77 and 80 grain bullets...

you should like the looks of this one...



link: http://www.savagearms.com/2007_pressrelease.htm

cheers
seafire

Seafire, just to clarify so as not to confuse the OP, do you mean 9 twist 'vaporizing bullets' after impact? Or will they in flight? I would think at 223 speeds 'in-flight' is ok, but perhaps that twist will lose jackets in air. My experience is ltd. to 14 twist. Thanks.

A one in 9 twist, even at 223 velocities will vaporize a fragile bullet not far after it leaves the barrel.. to the tune, or you won't hit a target at even 10 yds, because the bullet came apart already...

fragile Varmint bullets like the Hornady SPSX and the Sierra Blitz will only take about 180,000 rpms....a one in 9 twist will make them have about 270,000 rpms... which will virtually vaporize them coming out of the barrel...

The SPSX and the Blitz are really the only two bullet styles that this happens on, from the major manufacturers.. ALL other 223 bullets will take that amount of RPMs with no problem...

the 50 grain TNT might be border line, with MVs in the 3400 fps range....

A 223 is a great caliber, ammo is inexpensive and highly available, velocity is good (espec with 26" barrel), and recoil/noise is less than a .22-250 or 220 Swift.

1 in 9 may or may not blow up 50 gr bullets, 1 in 7 definately will. If your .223 is going to be a varmint gun, pick up a 1 in 12 barrel. If you are going to use it as a match rifle, go 1 in 6.5 and use the 90 gr Sierra Match Kings.

John
So many guns, so few targets....

Scarab---I would add CZ to the mix of brands you are looking at. I like the .223 and my Win mod 70 in .223 is probably my most accurate rifle using jacketed bullets. But it doesn't shoot cast bullets. You mention taking up reloading in the future,you might consider taking up casting too. I got into both at same time about 40 years ago. I have done a bunch of jackrabbit shooting with a spotlight as you mention. For this,I much prefer the cast bullets as the noise inside a pickup is much reduced over the jacketed bullets. I'm using 58 grain RCBS mold cast bullet about 2000-2200 fps and they reach out as far as you can get a good spot on them. Very pleasant to shoot and very cheap where I have been able to get free wheel weights. My .222 and my .22-250 both shoot the cast as well as the jacketed. For that reason if I were buying new,I'd go with .222. Probably the twist is the difference.

.204 Ruger

I'd definatly agree on a 223rem,

If all you are doing is shooting JAckRabbits and Coyotes?
Avoid the fast twist barrels.

I bought a Remington 700 in 223 knowing full well it wouldn't shoot the heavy bullets with it's 1:12" twist
and It doesn't.

at 200yards you can EASILY miss a full size pickup truck
with SS109 Ball ammo.

While with 40, 45 50 & 55gr stuff you can make 1" target pasting "Dots" into smiley faces by shooting bullet holes into a smile across the bottom and two "eyes" at the top.

AD

It sounds to me like you're on the right track with the .223 for your purposes...and with the rifles you've chosen.

quote:

A one in 9 twist, even at 223 velocities will vaporize a fragile bullet not far after it leaves the barrel.. to the tune, or you won't hit a target at even 10 yds, because the bullet came apart already...

fragile Varmint bullets like the Hornady SPSX and the Sierra Blitz will only take about 180,000 rpms....a one in 9 twist will make them have about 270,000 rpms... which will virtually vaporize them coming out of the barrel...

The SPSX and the Blitz are really the only two bullet styles that this happens on, from the major manufacturers.. ALL other 223 bullets will take that amount of RPMs with no problem...

the 50 grain TNT might be border line, with MVs in the 3400 fps range....


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Not to be disagreeable but my .223 is a CZ Varmint Synthetic with a 1 in 9 twist. It is solidly sub half inch with most everything but it's full on favorite is the 40 grain V-Max or 40 Sierra BlitzKing at 3,680ish fps, (second favorite is the 50 Sierra SP at near 3,400 fps). One hole groups, most counterintuitive as a 1 in 9 is about the last twist you'd think would tack drive 40 grainers in .22 caliber but I've never air burst a bullet with it yet, of course the V-Max and BlitzKing are not designed for lower velocities like the Hornady SX. As I've heard about but never actually air burst one I should stick some SX's in that CZ to see what it looks like, it makes sense they would come unwrapped at that RPM and never having done it I feel left out.
I agree the .223 would be a great round or just to be different a CZ American in .221 Fire Ball.

Thanks for the replies guys.
I said in the OP that i was going for the 16FHSS, i meant the 16FSS, but no biggy.
I'll stick with the .223 Rem and go for a pencil barrel but... Savage (site) has only 1 in 9" while Tikka has 1 in 8" and 1 in 12". Is there factory ammo with heavy profectiles and what are the pro's and con's as far as trajectory and penetration go (i am only shooting rabbits and foxes)?
Does anyone know of any issues with Savage or Tikka (apart from magazines) and Would you recommend a 22" or 24" barrel?
Cheers.

Montdoug, I had a look at the CZ rifles but i can't find a stainless barrel anywhere...

quote:

Originally posted by Scarab:
Thanks for the replies guys.
I said in the OP that i was going for the 16FHSS, i meant the 16FSS, but no biggy.
I'll stick with the .223 Rem and go for a pencil barrel but... Savage (site) has only 1 in 9" while Tikka has 1 in 8" and 1 in 12". Is there factory ammo with heavy profectiles and what are the pro's and con's as far as trajectory and penetration go (i am only shooting rabbits and foxes)?
Does anyone know of any issues with Savage or Tikka (apart from magazines) and Would you recommend a 22" or 24" barrel?
Cheers.

I have one and it's been back to the factory twice. If I could do it over I'd go with a Howa, Tikka, or Remy.

quote:

Montdoug, I had a look at the CZ rifles but i can't find a stainless barrel anywhere...

I don't believe CZ makes one, but I have about 7 of em rebarreled into various sub-.22 caliber wildcats as well as several factory calibers and they sure do shoot well.
My take is a bit different. It's all a crap shoot with factory rifles anyway, some shoot to your satisfaction and some don't. Buy what ya like and if it shoots like poop don't go crazy chasing your tail, just send it to a good smith and have it rebarreled into the caliber ya want and as long as you use a good smith your almost assure of success (better than a factory rifle anyway). It really doesn't cost as much as ya think.

Okay guys I picked one.
I'm going to get the Tikka T3 Varmint Stainless with 1 in 12" twist. I'll begin with a 4-16 x 50 on it until i can afford something better and I'll stick to the 55 grainers.

Thanks heaps for all your input.
Cheers guys.
Matt.

quote:

Originally posted by Scarab:
...I'll begin with a 4-16 x 50 on it ...

Hey Matt, Nice size scope and a great Varmint Cartridge.

You mentioned "spotlighting from a vehicle" which to me indicates Low Light conditions. The reason I'm posting is that I've in the process of Testing some Illuminated Scopes and they might serve you well. Or I should say "some of them" might.

If they are too Bright at the Lowest Illumination, they can cause your eye to go into a Night Blindness situation - kind of like the Flash on Cameras. You also DO NOT want the entire Reticle Illuminated, just a small portion of it.

Lots of manufacturers are getting into Illuminated Reticles and some are really Bad, some so-so, some pretty good and some simply exceptional for their cost.

Best of luck to you.

Excellent choice, keep us posted.

quote:

Originally posted by Scarab:
Okay guys I picked one.
I'm going to get the Tikka T3 Varmint Stainless with 1 in 12" twist. I'll begin with a 4-16 x 50 on it until i can afford something better and I'll stick to the 55 grainers.

Thanks heaps for all your input.
Cheers guys.
Matt.

Good choice Matt.
Best of luck.