quote:

Originally posted by stepchild 2:

quote:

Originally posted by 260remguy:
Which Speer manual are you citing data from?

Jeff

Number 8 Page 168 100gr data. N205 57Gr. 3,410fps.Stepchild

Old prelawyer manual and obsolite powder. roger

I have a call in to the Speer help line. When the guy or gal from Speer calls back, I'll ask him or her what they have to say regarding the data that appears in Speer #8 and post it here.

I am not saying that anything that has been claimed can't be achieved. I'm just saying that I take POA's loading data with a huge grain of NaCl and think that when you compare POA's data to any current loading data, you will find that POA's data claims more speed than current wisdom deems to be within the boundries of safe reloading practices. All performance increases come with a price, which often comes down to how much you are willing to pay. Excess pressure is no laughing matter and having blown up a rifle early in my reloading career, at age 12, I can assure everyone that I don't want to do it again. Only by God's grace and a strong FN Mauser action did I come away unharmed.

Jeff

OK, this is what Linda from CCI/Speer told me.

The data cited is correct for Speer manual #8, which has a copyright date of 1970.

The 257AI data changed in the next Speer manual, #9, to a maximum load of 54.0 grains of N205 with a 100 grain bullet. This load is listed as producing 3361 fps from a 24" 1 turn in 10" twist barrel in a custom Mauser. The data in Speer manual #8 was given for a 22" 1 turn in 10" twist barrel from a custom Mauser.

In summary, it appears that the loading data cited is for an obsolete powder and from a 36 year old source that has been superceeded several times.

Also, I don't have a burn rate chart that lists N205, so I don't know where it would have fallen in the hierarchy of powders that are currently available. If anybody does have this data, please let me know.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by 260remguy:
Also, I don't have a burn rate chart that lists N205, so I don't know where it would have fallen in the hierarchy of powders that are currently available. If anybody does have this data, please let me know.Jeff

Don't have any hard evidence but it looks close to accurate 3100. roger

quote:

Originally posted by 260remguy:
OK, this is what Linda from CCI/Speer told me.

The data cited is correct for Speer manual #8, which has a copyright date of 1970.

The 257AI data changed in the next Speer manual, #9, to a maximum load of 54.0 grains of N205 with a 100 grain bullet. This load is listed as producing 3361 fps from a 24" 1 turn in 10" twist barrel in a custom Mauser. The data in Speer manual #8 was given for a 22" 1 turn in 10" twist barrel from a custom Mauser.

In summary, it appears that the loading data cited is for an obsolete powder and from a 36 year old source that has been superceeded several times.

Also, I don't have a burn rate chart that lists N205, so I don't know where it would have fallen in the hierarchy of powders that are currently available. If anybody does have this data, please let me know.

Jeff

You've sure gone to a lot of trouble to prove me right, haven't you, your ego is getting in the way here, you couldn't just say well I guess the guy was right after all, but that wouldn't work would it? You have to cite copywrite dates and comment about the powder being obsolete, Exactly what is the point?

Your H20 numbers don't hold water either, I have put 63gr.of Norma 205 into a Winchester 257AI case with a drop tube.No, that's not a typo.

You say the powder is obsolete, I think the
word you were looking for was discontinued.

N205 was replaced by MRP,for your information, Linda could have told you that too if you'd only asked. I notice that you convieniently omitted the velocity(3,410) from the # 8 manual.

So in summary, lets see if I have all of this information correct that you have so graciously provided. I'm supposed to toss my loading manuals because of the copywrite dates and toss any discontinued powder that I have on hand, I don't think so!

And Roger,i'm surprised at you, with that pre-lawyer comment!

Stepchild

I would ventre this opinion.
Step child has a load he seems happy with, It seems to be safe in his rifle. Speer at one time had a rifle and or used presure testing methods that led them to print the data.
They later changed rifles and or preasure testing methods that caused them to print a milder load. But not a lot milder.
Anyone thinking of using such a load would be crazy to start with the load stepchild is using.
but if somebody is interested in working slowly to such a velocty using a good modern action , its up to them.
with my low numberd springfield, NO WAY.
I have hot loaded in the past with certain rifles, but in my opinion, if I want magnum velocity I will shoot a magnum rifle...tj3006

At one tinme Sierras 90 gr hollow point was regarded as a varmint bullet. Check with Sierra re appropriate use. I have used them in a 25-06 excellent accuracy, but in my opinion they are a varmint bullet not a game bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by stepchild 2:
And Roger,i'm surprised at you, with that pre-lawyer comment!Stepchild

I shall imediately put on my sack cloth shirt for 3 days of penence. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bbell:
At one tinme Sierras 90 gr hollow point was regarded as a varmint bullet. Check with Sierra re appropriate use. I have used them in a 25-06 excellent accuracy, but in my opinion they are a varmint bullet not a game bullet.

That bullet sure does a number on large mule deer out of a 257 Roberts! How bout it stepchild? You remember the two we took at Manderson? Jim

The Sierra 90 g boat tail hollow point with IMR 4064 is giving me my best groups so far from my Savage 25-06. I just don't see the boat tail. It has the slightest hint of a radius. Shoots well, though.

The only game I've shot it at was a grounghog in the head at 100 Yds. It definately made a big exit hole!

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by stepchild 2:
And Roger,i'm surprised at you, with that pre-lawyer comment!Stepchild

I shall imediately put on my sack cloth shirt for 3 days of penence. roger

Just say 3 Hail Parkers and ye shall be forgiven.

Stepchild

quote:

Originally posted by Jim White:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bbell:
At one tinme Sierras 90 gr hollow point was regarded as a varmint bullet. Check with Sierra re appropriate use. I have used them in a 25-06 excellent accuracy, but in my opinion they are a varmint bullet not a game bullet.[/Quote

That bullet sure does a number on large mule deer out of a 257 Roberts! How bout it stepchild? You remember the two we took at Manderson? Jim

Jim,
I sure do,they bounced like basketballs when they hit the ground. Gasorp,Lights out.

Stepchild

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 260remguy:
I have a call in to the Speer help line. When the guy or gal from Speer calls back, I'll ask him or her what they have to say regarding the data that appears in Speer #8 and post it here.

I am not saying that anything that has been claimed can't be achieved. I'm just saying that I take POA's loading data with a huge grain of NaCl and think that when you compare POA's data to any current loading data, you will find that POA's data claims more speed than current wisdom deems to be within the boundries of safe reloading practices. All performance increases come with a price, which often comes down to how much you are willing to pay. Excess pressure is no laughing matter and having blown up a rifle early in my reloading career, at age 12, I can assure everyone that I don't want to do it again. Only by God's grace and a strong FN Mauser action did I come away unharmed.

Jeff[/QUOTe

Jeff,
Cartriges of the World has a Wildcat section in which there is a write up on the 257 Ackley Improved.
The fastest data shown there shows 3,200fps with a 100gr. bullet. Source: Ackley, that's over 200fps less than Speer's numbers,how do you explain that?, what was that you said about a grain of salt?
I just referenced Parker Ackley's(Excellent Read) Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders.. Vol 1 and the hottest load listed is 3,322 well below Speer's numbers, so how do you figure that Parker Ackley was trying to pull the wool over anybodys eyes? You sure didn't do your homework on this one. You have the Balls to call Parker Ackley a sham artist,read on.
Roy Weatherby, bless his heart made a living(a very good living) off of people that believed his velocity claims. And again ,i'm not posting this to piss off the Weatherby people here, just referencing the dreaded Speer # 8 manual where they have a chapter devoted to advertised vs. actual velocities and just as an example Roy's 300 Weatherby Magnum, I repeat Magnum had an advertised velocity of 3,545 and chronographed 3,130 with a 150gr bullet, well, boys and girls, that ain't much better than the Good old 30/06 that burns, what 20-30 grains less powder,and has been killing most everything on the planet(without loosening your fillings) since 1906, you do the math! And just in case you thought I was bashing Old Roy, No Way, his 180gr load did much better, advertised was 3,245 vs 3,179 actual. Again these numbers are from Speers ballistic lab but don't pay it no mind as it was copywritten way back in 1970.

Stepchild

quote:

Originally posted by mudstud:
Roger, et al;

OK, OK! Guess we can blame Sierra for having confusing nomenclature! Nevertheless, I have had great success with this bullet on antelope. On the other hand, many people I know consider antelope to be nothing but vermin! So, I will concede the point as follows: The 90 gr. HPBT is a varmint bullet, useful for varmints up to, and including, speed goats! (-:

Now I'm going to get really heretical! The throat on my Ackley is about gone, and accuracy is starting to suffer. I've been considering rebarreling the long-action 700, but upon further review, I've been thinking about just going to a 25WSSM for my truck gun! The WSSM would be considerably shorter than a long 700, thus handier to carry in my outfit. And it oughta shoot those 90 gr. varminters plenty fast enough! What do you all think? (-:

I, personally think that would be a mistake. After the wussum fad has passed(and I think it will) and the brass becomes hard to find or is discontinued, you'll wish you'd just rebarreled it back to(but wont be able to because the bolt face has been altered/feed rails modified) the cartridge that has put a smile on your face many times. Brass for the 57m/m case will be around as long as you and I are alive and maybe longer.

Stepchild

I don't know you and I don't care what you shoot. Period. Your safety is your responsibility and if you feel safe, who am I to question it?

I have formed my opinions about metallic cartridge reloading from watching my Father reload for his varmint and target rifles and from reloading myself for the past 38 years. That long a period of time of doing anything usually adds up to having some understanding and/or expertise. Although I don't consider myself to be an expert reloader, I do consider myself to be a very competent and very, very careful reloader. Heck, as I type this I probably have well over 10,000 rounds of reloaded ammo on the shelves in my storage room and the parts to make another 10,000 rounds.

I chased your load because it seems too fast to be safe, but as I have noted many times, different people are willing to accept different levels of risk to achieve their goals. I am convined that most of POA's published loading data runs at very high pressure, so much so that it constitutes an unsafe reloading practice, particularly given the pressure testing technology available in 2006. In other words, I believe that what you believe is a safe load, for your level of risk, in your rifle, may be a bomb in another rifle. This is 1 reason that I don't ever shoot ammo that has been reloaded by anybody but me, as I don't trust my health to other people's reloading techniques. Neither do I offer to share reloading data, since there is risk of litigation involved.

Interestingly, I was looking at my loaded 257AI ammo and note that I have 50 rounds loaded with 90 grain Sierra BTHPs and 50 rounds loaded with 75 grain Sierra HPs for the Ruger 77 and 100 rounds of 100 grain Partitions loaded for the Savage 99. According to the shooting log for that rifle, the 100 grain loads clock 3,012 fps in a 22" barrel. This appears to be the maximum load for this rifle/bullet combination, but it is a weaker action and Partitions usually run a little higher pressure since the web of the partition doesn't squeeze into the rifling as easily as non-partition cup style bullets.

Good luck, good shooting, and be safe out there.

Jeff

Stepchild2. Re: P.O. Ackley. Much of the data in his handbooks was never pressure tested for one thing, and he did not, AFAIK, have access to powders like N-205, MRP and the like. I think that most of the loads were furnished by the "inventors" (?) of the wildcat rounds in question, and even the AI loads may have been estimated velocities.
Also, a comment on the Speer #8 loading manual. The #9 was brought out after only a fairly short run, because some of the data in the #8 is bad. IIRC, the little copper slugs that were used to determine pressure were delivered witht he wrong tarage table, thus the readings for pressure were erroneous. It was not the fault od Speer, but the manufacturor of the copper slugs. Just another excellent reason to start low and work up. The body parts you save may be your own.
Paul B.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul B:
Stepchild2. Also, a comment on the Speer #8 loading manual. The #9 was brought out after only a fairly short run, because some of the data in the #8 is bad.

Just for the record "step2"! This was the meaning behind my pre lawyer comment.I'm still baffeled what your meaning was behind your rebuff? At first I contributed my lack of understanding tomy brain slowing down. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by Paul B:
Stepchild2. Also, a comment on the Speer #8 loading manual. The #9 was brought out after only a fairly short run, because some of the data in the #8 is bad.

Just for the record "step2"! This was the meaning behind my pre lawyer comment.I'm still baffeled what your meaning was behind your rebuff? At first I contributed my lack of understanding tomy brain slowing down. roger

Well, I guess what I meant was that because my manual is pre-lawyer and my powder is supposedly obsolete that somehow I should toss my stuff and buy new, I didn't mean any offence to you.

Stepchild

quote:

Originally posted by Paul B:
Stepchild2. Re: P.O. Ackley. Much of the data in his handbooks was never pressure tested for one thing, and he did not, AFAIK, have access to powders like N-205, MRP and the like. I think that most of the loads were furnished by the "inventors" (?) of the wildcat rounds in question, and even the AI loads may have been estimated velocities.
Also, a comment on the Speer #8 loading manual. The #9 was brought out after only a fairly short run, because some of the data in the #8 is bad. IIRC, the little copper slugs that were used to determine pressure were delivered witht he wrong tarage table, thus the readings for pressure were erroneous. It was not the fault od Speer, but the manufacturor of the copper slugs. Just another excellent reason to start low and work up. The body parts you save may be your own.
Paul B.

Paul,
That's exactly what i've been doing for the last 46 years now!

Stepchild

Jeff,
You chased my load hoping to catch me in a lie, well, it didn't work did it? I'm a little tired of you minding my business for me. I can handle it all by myself, contrary to popular belief!

Stepchild

Stepchild2,

So, besides being a guy who doesn't take into account changes and revisions in reloading data, you're also a mind reader? If what you posted about me is an example of your mind reading skill, I'd respectfully suggest that you don't quit your day job.

I never tried to catch you in a lie, heck, this is the internet and at least 1/2 of the people posting on it are making things up as they go along. I believed (and still believe) that the loading data that you have shared may be dangerous in some rifles, since you can't make a 257AI into a 257ROY, there just isn't enough case capacity and efficiency can only add go so far. I called Speer/CCI to see if they still felt that the load that you cited, and they published in Speer #8, was safe. The answer that I got was vague, something like, yes it was safe at that time, in that rifle, with that lot of powder. But note that the maximum recommended load for N205 was reduced in Speer #9 and that all of the reloading data for AI cartridges was dropped by Speer at a later date.

I don't know you, I don't care anything about you, and I'm absolutely sure that you have no insight into my reasons for questioning you and your hero, POA. I was a bit surprised by a long time reloader such as yourself citing reloading data from COTW. The true expert reloaders who I know all have multiple copies of COTW, but they use it as a cartridge reference, not a source of good/quality/safe reloading data.

Good luck, good hunting, and be safe out there!

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by 260remguy:
Stepchild2,

So, besides being a guy who doesn't take into account changes and revisions in reloading data, you're also a mind reader? If what you posted about me is an example of your mind reading skill, I'd respectfully suggest that you don't quit your day job.

I never tried to catch you in a lie, heck, this is the internet and at least 1/2 of the people posting on it are making things up as they go along. I believed (and still believe) that the loading data that you have shared may be dangerous in some rifles, since you can't make a 257AI into a 257ROY, there just isn't enough case capacity and efficiency can only add go so far. I called Speer/CCI to see if they still felt that the load that you cited, and they published in Speer #8, was safe. The answer that I got was vague, something like, yes it was safe at that time, in that rifle, with that lot of powder. But note that the maximum recommended load for N205 was reduced in Speer #9 and that all of the reloading data for AI cartridges was dropped by Speer at a later date.

I don't know you, I don't care anything about you, and I'm absolutely sure that you have no insight into my reasons for questioning you and your hero, POA. I was a bit surprised by a long time reloader such as yourself citing reloading data from COTW. The true expert reloaders who I know all have multiple copies of COTW, but they use it as a cartridge reference, not a source of good/quality/safe reloading data.

Good luck, good hunting, and be safe out there!

Jeff

Yes, it was safe at the time, with that lot of powder, in that rifle, imagine that!DUH!
And what has changed since then, other than frivelous lawsuits?And the alignment of the moons,maybe?Or the greenhouse effect? Did the earths rotation change directions?
And that my load might not be safe in someone elses rifle is an ignorant statement! Where did you see me suggest that someone try my load in their rifle? As most of us know, you start with the starting load and work your way up.DUH!
You need to show some respect for your elders boy, Parker Ackley included. Parker Ackley forgot more about rifles than you'll ever know,((and me too) regardless of what daddy tried to teach you.
My COTW reference was to show you that Parker Ackley wasn't trying to go over the top and believe me, That's not my reference for my data,
just making a point. The point being that you don't have a clue about Ackley Improved cartridges, never owned one, have you?
That you don't know me or want to know me is fine with me!,a relief in fact. Did you once hear me tell you how to load your ammo? No, I didn't think so. So don't tell me how to run my reloading bench. And just for your information, I don't have a day job!So, I have to ask, exactly what is your point,anyway? That's assuming you have one.

Stepchild


Stepchild

POA was a great guy and you know more than anybody since him about reloading, NOT! Satisfied?

Based on our "conversation" on this forum, I have no use or respect for you, even if you are older than me and I'm 48. So you can KMA anytime you like. FU, FU, FU, etc.

Doing a quick sort of the EXCEL file of my firearms inventory shows that I have owned 7 rifles chambered for AI cartridges. I still have 2, in 257AI, and I have the finish reamers for 250AI, 257AI, and 7x57AI should I ever have need of them again. I have actually thought that I might try the 223AI, Big Stick over at 24HCF thinks of it as the solution to the 22-250 and BS seems to know his stuff.

I don't recall tell you how to load your ammunition. I did, however, challenge the legacy of POA and the safety of the load that you have cited in other rifles. Oh, and you're the guy who cited COTW as a reference to prove your point, not me.

Good luck, good shooting, be safe out there, and STFU!

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Jones:
Sierra makes a 90 grain hollow point game bullet for quarter bore nuts like myself. I was looking at the comments on the Midway site and everybody there seems to think its great !
Both in acuracy and terminal performance.
I have a hard time going bellow 100 grains when i am hunting mule deer, but i would like to hear of any experence you guys might have had with this bullet.
I shoot 2 .257 Roberts a 20" and a 24"and I have a 26 inch 25,06. I bet it would be great for antilpoe and coyots and such, mabye bigger critters to, anybody have any stories , good or bad ? ...tj3006

I've owned three .257 roberts so far.....one a browning micro medalion with a 20" barrel and that thing shot 90 grain sierra's HP at 3,100'/sec.....some time ago....I used H-414.

I also use a M-70 featherweight in .257 Roberts (wouldn't dream od screwing it up with a AI reamer) and with it's 22" barrel that thing scoots the 90 Grain HP to a bit over 3,150'/sec

Bottom line is this.....the Sierra 257 90 gr HP just plain is a great deer and pronghorn bullet in the 257 Roberts. I use Hornady's 120 HP mostly in the .25-06 because it's a longer action and has more boiler room for the longer bullet.

I don't have a 250 Savage but suspect the same results would be seen with Sierra's HP there as well.

Maybe it was intended to be a varmint bullet but it sure does a dead deal for whitetails and pronghorns.

Seems it was made just for the Roberts case.

quote:

Originally posted by 260remguy:
POA was a great guy and you know more than anybody since him about reloading, NOT! Satisfied?

Based on our "conversation" on this forum, I have no use or respect for you, even if you are older than me and I'm 48. So you can KMA anytime you like. FU, FU, FU, etc.

Doing a quick sort of the EXCEL file of my firearms inventory shows that I have owned 7 rifles chambered for AI cartridges. I still have 2, in 257AI, and I have the finish reamers for 250AI, 257AI, and 7x57AI should I ever have need of them again. I have actually thought that I might try the 223AI, Big Stick over at 24HCF thinks of it as the solution to the 22-250 and BS seems to know his stuff.

I don't recall tell you how to load your ammunition. I did, however, challenge the legacy of POA and the safety of the load that you have cited in other rifles. Oh, and you're the guy who cited COTW as a reference to prove your point, not me.

Good luck, good shooting, be safe out there, and STFU!

Jeff

I rest my case! without any profane remarks or abbreviations, good night,boy.

Stepchild

Stepchild,

I'd like to apologies to you for using profanity in a response to you.

I still think that your logic is illogical and that your reloading processes seem unsafe, but I have no reason to care about your safety or the safety of anyone dumb enough to use loading data found on the internet or in old superceded loading manuals. If somebody wants to test Darwin's theory of stupidity, who am I to hold him/her back from his/her destiny?

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by 260remguy:
Stepchild,

I'd like to apologies to you for using profanity in a response to you.

I still think that your logic is illogical and that your reloading processes seem unsafe, but I have no reason to care about your safety or the safety of anyone dumb enough to use loading data found on the internet or in old superceded loading manuals. If somebody wants to test Darwin's theory of stupidity, who am I to hold him/her back from his/her destiny?

Jeff

You still don't get it, do you? The load that i'm using in my rifle, IS SAFE, or I wouldn't be using it!
I didn't register here to bad mouth other members or to stir the pot, but you are definately mistaken on this one. You're entitled to your opinions and the only problem with that is that you don't have any experience with Ackley Improved cartridges(regardless of the Ackley reamers that you claim to have in inventory) or you wouldn't be going to the lengths that you have to prove me wrong. And you really could have done without the Darwin comment. I'll close this without any stupidity remarks, just that you need to expand your horizons. Just live in your own world and don't tread into areas where you are clueless.
You say that my reloading practices are unsafe, unsafe to who? What is this all about anyway?
If you have any questions Call 1-800-LINDA(grin)
You have nice day. And your apology is accepted.

Stepchild

Bullets do strange things at times. If you have a bad experience with one you quit using them, but it might have been a bad batch, for example.

Nobody would call a 150gr Rem Corelok factory load in a 308Win to fragile for deer especialy out of a 16 1/2" barrel. I shot a nice whitetail buck broadside at about 20 ft I was so dumfounded that it didn't DRT that I never levered another round into the chamber. We had fresh snow so I followed his tracks for quite a ways before some blood showed and you could tell it was being coughed out. On finding the deer he had a large crater on the near side about the size of a desert plate with no penetration other than some small fragments of jacket that ripped through between the ribs and dammaged the lungs.
I assumed that I had hit a small twig between me and the deer. Later in the day I shot a large doe faceing me the bullet again blew up in the lower neck area creating a grapefruit sized cavity with no penetration. The deer was recovered. The remainder of the shells were used for target practice and the rifle has acounted for many deer since in the hands of my nephew using 180gr bullets.

I just bought 500 bulk Siera .25cal 90gr HP from Midway but they are marketing them as varmint bullets.

375win.