Okay guys, I need some advice. I just sold my Browning A-Bolt .223 WSSM because of various reasons (none related to performance, just my preferences). I'm looking for a good, accurate replacement in .223 Rem. At first I was looking at the Weatherby Vanguard Sub-MOA but now I'm looking very hard at the Kimber 84M Pro Varmint, which has a 22" medium-heavy fluted stainless barrel and laminated stock. I'm already completely sold on the workmanship and "feel" of this rifle as I handled it today at a local shop and it is the best feeling, best balanced varmint rifle I've ever laid my hands on. My question is in regards to accuracy. I've spent the last 2 hours looking around on the web for good reviews of this rifle and they are just non-existant. I've read several people's opinions on Kimber rifles in general, and it typically boils down to: 1. "they are tack drivers and great quality" or 2. "they are pieces of junk that are overpriced and inaccurate".

So.....which is it?? I've never shot a Kimber rifle, but I do have a Kimber 1911 that I carry for personal defense and it is very nice. I don't see why the Kimber Pro Varmint in .223 would be inaccurate. According to Kimber.....it has a match grade chamber, match grade barrel, and pillar bedded stock.....along with a crisp 3 lb trigger.

I would really appreciate any information and/or advice you guys could provide. Thanks.

Kimber chambering and bore quality is so hit or miss I wouldn't buy one unless allowed to shoot it first.

If you can live with a single shot do check out the Cooper rifles - they all shoot very well. Or dakota predator for more $$.

Just curious.....how do you KNOW this about Kimber rifles? Not trying to sound disrespectful.....

Yes

quote:

Originally posted by Eland Slayer:
Just curious.....how do you KNOW this about Kimber rifles? Not trying to sound disrespectful.....

Nomo4me,

I asked HOW do you know this about Kimber rifles??.....as in do you own one? have you shot one? know someone who owns one or has shot one??

I'll put in my 2 cents and say that "I do not own one" but have many friends with them. The majority seems to be disappointed with the performance of the rifle (s) and feel it is way over priced..

ES,

I've owned 8 Kimbers in their current iteration (Yonkers, not Oregon). Five were Classics, three were Montana's. They have been chambered in 260 Rem, 270 WSM, 308 Win, 300 WSM and 325 WSM. Only the first two were bought retail The others were bought off Gunbroker in the $650 to $750 range. I've got a 308 Montana on Gunbroker right now. I paid $650 for it. It has a bid of $725 on it as I type this(this one is a shooter, I just happen to be financially embarrassed at the moment). I have a love hate relationship with Kimbers. I love the ones that shoot, I hate the ones that don't shoot or have problems. Seven of the 8 would shoot under an inch at 100 yds. Two had feeding issues or were just jinxed. If I point a rifle at an animal, attempt to pull the trigger and the end result is not a dead animal, and it happens twice, the rifle gets sold.
If you can buy the one your looking at for a price that you can blow it out if it don't shoot right, and not loose too much money, do it. Kimbers have good wood, and excellent feel. The Montanas are impervious to the elements.
Some times they need a little tweaking. The triggers are adjustable like a Rem. 700. You can get them down to +/- 2 lb. pretty easy. You can open the barrel channel a little. Even though they are pillar bedded this is what I do. I take a couple pieces of aluminum foil(or something else) and fold it several times, Make a hole in the foil and place it between the receiver and stock and tighten down hard on the action screws. Has worked for me in the past. One last thing. I see your in Montgomery Texas, which I consider part of east Texas, so chances are you're not making 600 yd shots on prarie dogs. Unless your shooting 400 yds or more, a MOA rifle will do all you need.
I'd say go for it.
Best
GWB

Eland if you search these forums you should find some first hand experiences. I believe that one person bought his new, and then had to send it back to Kimber. Everything I have read (admittedly on the web!) points to a lack of uniformity in production despite the claims of match barrel. match chambers etc. For a long time I had a hankering for a Kimber Select Classic in 257R. I decided against it and have survived. They are beautiful guns however, but, for about $1K I would expect one that shoots as well.
Good luck.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Eland if you search these forums you should find some first hand experiences. I believe that one person bought his new, and then had to send it back to Kimber.

I'm that guy. Bought a new 84M Select in 257R. After the first day at the range I sent it back. Would not hold a 6" group. Kimber replaced the barrel and sent it back. It is now more accurate then I am. I easily shoot .5-1.25 depending on the load and my own limitations. I actually had a Zen moment 2 weeks ago and placed 3 shots in one hole at 100 yards with Sierra Pro Hunters.

Is it a bummer I had to send it back? yes, but Kimber did me right and I now have a beautiful 5 1/2 lb rifle that shoots great. I would buy a new one again knowing Kimber stands behind it's products. I don't think I would roll the dice on a used one. I think Kimber does have some QC issues based on my experience and other posts. I think most people just unload them on Gunbroker if they don't shoot so I'd be hesitant to buy a used one.

I own 3 Kimbers: SuperAmerica .22LR, SuperAmerica in .260 and Classic Select in .257 Roberts. All are pretty to look at. The .22LR has shot well from the start, no worries. The .260 had to be sent back due to horrible "patterning". Kimber re-barreled and returned. Now will consistently shoot 1-1.5 MOA with factory ammo. I'm more or less happy with that. The .257 again would not group less than 2" at 100 yards. Decided to have the Hill Country Rifle guys re-barrel it. For what it's worth, the HCR guys decided over a year ago that they would not perform their general accurizing service on Kimbers. This is the only manufacturer they will not work on. They say that the barrel quality is so hit or miss that they will only re-barrel and accurize. After re-barreling, the .257 shoots just under MOA. At the end of the day, I think the Kimbers are just inconsistent in their QC. Good luck. I've spent several months pursuing a control-round feed actioned .223 project, and may end up with a Kimber for the platform.

quote:

I think most people just unload them on Gunbroker if they don't shoot so I'd be hesitant to buy a used one.

Scott,
I would have to take exception with you. I think you should give your fellow rifle looneys a little more credit.
The two Kimbers I had feeding problems with, I took them back to the shop where they were bought, explained the problem and got my money back. I didn't want someone I sold/traded the guns to to have a problem. I've bought three off Gunbroker, a 270WSM in a classic, 308 win and 325 Wsm in Montana. All will shoot an inch or better at 100 yds after a little tweaking, using my handloads. I've since sold two and am selling the third. I buy them, shoot them, hunt them and sometimes sell them. I've bought at least 20 rifles off gunbroker and at least a dozen off this forum. I've yet to have a bad experience, be burned when doing a deal with another gun guy.
I've a 100% rating on gunbroker, and that means more to me than making a couple bucks or selling a piece of crap to an unsuspecting person. Kinda like life, it takes you a lifetime to build and maintain a reputation, but a moment to destroy it.

I can't help but wonder if some of the problems with the rifles, people complain about isn't the nut behind the trigger.
A case in point. I've owned 20 or so Sakos, only 1 in that time could I not get to shoot under an inch at 100 yds. One of my hunting buddies had an older Sako chambered in 7 mag. It would spray bullets all over. He asked me if I could take a look. I did all my usual tricks but couldn't get it to shoot. Tried bullets from 130 gr. to 160 gr, no luck. Different powders, no luck. I have a routine that typically works for getting barrels clean, I tried that. Not having a borescope, I thought the barrel was clean. Turns out it wasn't. Seems this guy had been shooting this rifle for over 25 years and had never really cleaned the barrel. Once I got it down to bare metal then fouled it, it would hold groups under an inch.
Just my $.02.

ES, if you can be patient, you can probably find a pro-hunter at a good price. If not, and you want one, pay full price and take a chance. I look at it this way, all education costs something! Or you could always buy a Savage and be done with it.
Best
GWB

I've only owned one Kimber rifle. It would NOT shoot and I did everything humanly possibe to get it to shoot.
It went away, and NO more Kimbers for me, ever.
Kimber of Oregon is OK.

DMB,

Was it one of their lightweight rifles? I seem to have heard about lots of problems with their lightweight rifles but not so much with their varmint rifles.

Well.....I bought the rifle this afternoon. It is brand new and the price was right. I guess we will find out soon enough how well it shoots. I will post the results. Thanks to everyone.

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:

quote:

I think most people just unload them on Gunbroker if they don't shoot so I'd be hesitant to buy a used one.

Scott,
I would have to take exception with you. I think you should give your fellow rifle looneys a little more credit.B

Not talking about you GW. I would have no issue buying a rifle from you or other regular posters on this website. I just see all the threads where people talk of unloading their crappy shooting Kimbers on someone else. I think many get traded in the gun shops but I'd still would not buy a used one unless it was from someone I know and respect.

I have to agree with you about nuts behind the triggers. Ultra light rifles take a little time to get used too. Much different than shooting a 9 lb target rifle with a bipod.

I hope I didn't offend you because I really enjoy your posts and opinions.

Scott,

No problem here with anything you've posted. You were expressing your opinion. Thats what this forum is for.
Best
GWB

I can heartily recommend the Tikka T3 or White Tail Hunter.
My T3 is a 1-8 twist and is excellent.

quote:

I just see all the threads where people talk of unloading their crappy shooting Kimbers on someone else.

Scott, I am not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that it is inappropriate to sell a gun that does not meet my accuracy standards? I have sold several rifles either here or on Gunbroker and in all cases I have been prepared to email sample targets. You would be surprised that people are more concerned with the wood than they are with the accuracy! In several cases I have sold rifles that I have multiple versions in the same caliber and in all cases I have sold the least accurate. Now I may be an accuracy nut. I do believe that only accurate rifles are interesting. In the case of handguns, all the guns I sold did not meet my accuracy standards, but again, people were more concerned with the condition than the accuracy! Just my thoughts!
Peter.

Well, add me to those who are disappointed with the current quality of Kimber.

I bought a Model 82 22 rim fire years ago, and it was the best 22 rim fire rifle I have ever seen.

A couple of years ago I bought a brand new Model 82 with stainless fluted barrel. And although teh rifle looks great, there seems to have been some cost cutting somwhere.

The magazines are hard to insert, the bold feels quite rough when it is used, and we have feeding problems with it.

I have been given a Model 82 223, second hand, which I have not used much.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:

quote:

I just see all the threads where people talk of unloading their crappy shooting Kimbers on someone else.

Scott, I am not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that it is inappropriate to sell a gun that does not meet my accuracy standards?

I'm saying there is a big difference between a rifle that doesn't meet accuracy standards and one that is defective. I heard on several Kimber threads of people getting rid of their defective Kimbers to others. I doubt everyone gave full disclosure. I rarely hear about people sending them back to Kimber for repair. I was trying to make the point that;

1- If you get a new Kimber and it is defective, send it back. They will fix it.

2- If you buy a used Kimber, buyer beware.

I'm not trying to insult anyone that sells their guns on GB.

My Kimber Montana 223 is new but I'm making progress .The dealer didn't tighten all the screws when he mounted and bore sighted the scope. That fixed I lowered the trigger pull to 2.25 lbs.That fixed I started to shoot and the groups gradually got smaller.I agree that shooting a light rifle is a learning experience.

Having been involved with manufacturing and QC all my life I must ask questions. Is it a new product ? Have the problems occurred during a certain time period ? Have there been changes in workers,processes or material ? Have the problems been corrected ? It's common on the internet to have problems repeated forever even though they have been corrected.

Not sure how long the QC problems were. I bought mine about a year ago. When I called Kimber and they asked for the serial number, they said it was manufactured 8 months prior so mine was manufactured 20 months ago.

I know a lot of people have bought Kimbers before and after mine and had zero problems.

Do the folks here make some separation between the Oregon Kimbers and the more recent Yonkers models?

You did!
Most folks probably do too.
GWB

I hate reading the posts about kimbers being good or terrible. I have 2, a 260 bought off the accurate classifieds, and a .308 I got at a gunshow. They are both as fine a rifle, and as accurate a shooters as anyone could ask for. I hanker for others but am afraid of what I'd get.

Ya pays yo' money and ya' takes yo' chances, kinda like life!
GWB

quote:

Originally posted by Eland Slayer:
Well.....I bought the rifle this afternoon. ...I guess we will find out soon enough how well it shoots. I will post the results. ...

Soooo, how well does it shoot?

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by Eland Slayer:
Well.....I bought the rifle this afternoon. ...I guess we will find out soon enough how well it shoots. I will post the results. ...

Soooo, how well does it shoot?

I haven't shot it yet. I probably won't get a chance to go to the range for at least a week.....possibly two.

When I get a new rifle, that occasionally happens to me too. Each day is torture.

Best of luck with it.

for my 2 cents worth. i've probably owned over 20 kimbers of various types. right at the moment there are about 8 or 10 in the cabinets. while i prefer the originals oregon ones, i find very little to complain about in the new ones. if you can find a transition model they were on par with the oregon ones. the only one i had trouble with was a new 260 that had a bedding problem. once fixed it shot just fine. BTW i do have a 223 like you describe. groups consistently under 3/4" if i do my part.

They are beautiful looking rifles. My buddies have had a total of 3 of them when they were apparently in some transition stage. They were in .223 and 308 chamberings and two of them shot groups in the 4-5" size out of the box and went back to be replaced with better barrels that shot more in the 1.5-3.0" size. The other one shot ok but nothing amazing out of the box with groups in the 1.2-2.0" size.

Eventually all were sold and the guys moved on to other rifles. Their experience has caused me to pass them by when I see them and then only if I had the chance to return them to the factory would I personally be interested in purchasing them.

Again, my choice and recommendation.

I am assuming the Kimber's 223 action is the standard 308 length, or did they make a scaled down version for the 223? A buddy of mine just bought one and he couldn't answer my question.

Lou

Whatthe, I agree with you. My Savage 110FP shoots just as well, however, there is a certain beauty of a rifle with nice looking wood! So, if you can get both accuracy AND nice looks, then I say "go for it!".
Peter

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Lou:
I am assuming the Kimber's 223 action is the standard 308 length, or did they make a scaled down version for the 223? A buddy of mine just bought one and he couldn't answer my question.

Lou

I don't know about the current models, but he one I have from Oregom definitely looks like a scaled down to fit the cartridge deal. Almsot looks like a Pre-64 M70 that got wet and shrunk.
The last time I shot it for group, the first 9 shots would fit under a dime without any showing. Either I misjudged the wind on the last just, or jerked the trigger or the shooting gods just wanteted to mess with me (you decide) but the last shot was out of the group which could still be covered by a nickel.
I found mine at a gun show and it looked so nice I didn't even quibble on the price. When I got it to the range,and sighting it in, all groups were sub-MOA with either factory ammo (Winchester 45 gr. white box) or my handloads.
Guess I have no reason to complain.
I did look at a synthetic stocked model at Sportsman's Warehouse a while back but a .325 WSM wasn't quite what I was interested in. Seemed like a nice gun though.
Paul B.

Finally got a chance to go to the range this morning. I couldn't be more pleased. I sighted in using Fiocchi 40 gr. V-Max match ammunition (3,600 fps). The gun shoots GREAT!! I fired a 10-shot group in 90 seconds with a slight crosswind at 100 yards, and it was still under 1". I also shot several 5 shot groups between 0.5" and 0.75"

I took the plunge on a Kimber Classic Select in .223 and am very pleased. First handload shot under an inch, and two factory loads (one loaded with 52 grain HP and the other with Hornady 75 grain TAP) both shoot .75 or better. All with a 6X scope, so probably greater potential there. This rifle is a winner, so I'm 2 for 4 on Kimbers.

I have a .22-250 with the 25" stainless fluted barrel, bought new about 2 years ago. Fantastic piece of wood, but shoots about 1.25"-1.5" at best with factory or handloads. Not very impressive for a varmint gun. I have several .250's that will shoot into .25", so as good as this one looks, it just stays on the Gator in rain or shine weather as a short-range hog or coyote gun. Hard to get excited about a gun that's not very accurate. I sure expected a lot more out of a varmint gun from Kimber.

A good friend liked mine so well, he bought one just like it (before I realized it wouldn't get any more accurate than it is).His is probably a 2" gun at best. He sent it back, hasn't gotten it returned yet so there's still hope.

Between the two of us, these will probably be our last Kimbers. There are just too many other choices out there to take another chance on another Kimber.

ES,
congrats!
It's a great feeling to acquire a rifle you've lusted after and dreamed of, and have it perform up to the level, or even exceed your expectations. Enjoy your fine rifle in good health. Here's to hoping is serves you well in the coming seasons.
Best
GWB

Whatthe
had the same rifle in 308. It was a shooter.



here is a typical target at 200 yds. As you can see, the rifle shot better than this twitchy ol' dude.



Best
GWB