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Rcamuglia---Your post 12 apr at 02:39 your calling smokinjoes group (your words--not his) an 1 3/4" group. Same date by 05:43 you are calling it an 1 1/2" group----what's a 1/4 inch among friends? Then you post a link for a new world record and state it's size smokinjoe is claiming and the link speaks of a .943" group.--Yea right about same size. I can see why you think there are liars--I think so too. | |||
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You guys are great!  The OP has a basic hunting rifle that he wants to develop a load for, presumably to bust a deer at a hundred yards or so, and we have just gotten into who the issue of who has won a championship! Gentlemen, thank you for the laugh on a dull Tuesday morning but I think we are making a mountain out of a mole hill!  IMJ, Is the rifle mainly for hunting? If it is what calibre is it in? I ask as if you had a .270 for example and were looking for hunting accuracy you might just try and work up to the famous 60 grains of H4831 over just about any 130gr bullet just to check pressure and fiddle with seating depth if need be to get it under an inch. More of these pet loads exist for the common calibres and could you say you more time and money than either of the two ways mooted here. I do think it's important to be clear about what your goals are with a reloading project, do you want some fodder to make it go bang, do you want to shoot bugholes at 600 or something inbetween? Experienced long range shots like RC and LG argue about stuff like this the world over, you should see my rifle club's bar after the Christmas shoot....Fisty-cuffs have broken out on topics as diverse as whether BSA or Royal Enfield produced soppier chambers through to bushing neck dies vs PL-FL resizing. Where are you on the scale? | |||
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Won them with a shotgun Won a handful of precision rifle matches, won back to back Sporting Rifle Matches one of which the score set record for the course's 6 year existence. The point is I've been shooting rifles and shotguns, loading for them, and competing with them long enough to know what is good, what is possible, and what is complete unadulterated BS. And yes Ghubert, I'm having fun | |||
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Ok, I am going to give you my way of load development, which is a mixture of various theories and has absolutely no scientific validity, but it works for me every time. Take your chosen bullet, case and powder combo. Establish your max OAL - either 20 thou back from the lands, or at magazine length, whichever is least. Run a basic ladder of 2 shots per powder charge up to the book max load, desired velocity - whatever. Helps to do this over a chrono. This should give you a clear idea of pressure etc. Pick a powder charge which looks good in terms of velocity and hopefully a cluster of shots on paper. Now load up about 40 rounds to this recipe and go to the range with your press and dies so you can adjust OAL. Start firing 3 shot groups at a target. After each group adjust the dies down a further 10 thou and keep going. At some point between 20 and 140 thou you will get a nice tight group. Once you get this, adjust the remaining rounds to this length and fire a few more groups to prove the load. Once you are happy, you can call it good and go huntng. Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they are not out to get you.... | |||
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It indeed would be excellent shooting - if repeatable. Any chance your buddy might have been pulling your leg a bit?   | |||
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Well reckon I wasn't blowing smoke about you being a shotgun jock. | |||
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With a shotgun eh? No wonder he likes those "patterns"  BTW; I've only won 5 state championships with a rifle and numerous other matches along the way with a rifle. Just thought I'd let you know. Larry Gibson | |||
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I do believe that ole' RC has done flung down the gauntlet. All you "platform" owners and store bought rifle owners that shoot them little-bitty groups "all day long" at all sorts of amazing distances just get your wallets out and line up. I'll help him carry his money home. I have used both methods to achieve accurate loads. One point is that the trial and error method is often all that is available to some shooters because of the limits of their range. I agree with Foobar. When I'm starting out with a load development at 100 yards, I use three shots with rather gross steps in the powder charge. As I narrow down my selection, the steps get smaller and the number of rounds get higher. Not everyone has the luxury of a range outside his shop nor do they have a set-up so they can reload at the range. So reloading the same three cases over and over won't work. That's when you get into fire culling which is another can of worms. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Thanks! State Championships are like getting a GED. Little Fish in an even littler pond. If you were more accomplished, you'd realize that SJ's group shot with an AR at 600 is not the norm. I'd love to meet you at Whittington with a rifle, lighten your wallet and shut your mouth.
Ah, the "new HC", more subdued and less  I know what you really want to say! Hey CD! I do it the same way, but shoot the Audette's test first, then go to the range with the chosen load and press for the seating depth test. Now back to the OP's question................. I just finished load development with the 95 gr Nosler BT in the .243 WSSM that shoots terrible horizontal 1/2 MOA groups at every range I shot an Audette's Ladder yesterday at 330 yards  The obvious node is circled. I loaded my test rounds right in the middle of the charge weight node; 42.5 grains of 760 and went out with 15 of them seated .010" into the lands for a seating depth test, with my press and dies. I shot 2 shells at 200 yards. If they are close to each other, I seat another bullet to that depth and shoot it. If not I move on seating .010" deeper and repeat. Here is the finished load at .030" off the rifling.  This method makes sense to me by finding accurate exit times for the bullet due to barrel harmonics. It just works. | |||
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RC, I hope you don't mine but I put your name on the list for the next Top Shot show after this current series ends. Larry and I will eagerly be watching you win this event unless your wonderful personality gets you eliminated.  | |||
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I figured you two as "reality show" zealots  | |||
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You're a legend in your own mind RC. If you'd watch that show you'd see the shotgunning champs get their asses whipped good by the boys that really know how to shoot rifles and handguns. Like I'm going to believe a guy who just started rifle shooting is going to clean everyone's slate....not hardly. I'll put my money on ex-military Larry against your ass any day. So I'm done with you, there's no telling you anything, there's no being nice to you. Good day to you sir. | |||
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 No, I just won't let anybody get away with posting BS Oh, one more thing before you curl up. I'm sure that the 1/4 MOA AR has a Lothar Walter barrel that you forgot to tell us about. That would really make the story complete!  | |||
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Why you let yourself get away with it then? At any rate I posted again to tell you that Olympic Arms makes their own barrels. You have room to talk bad about LW barrels, you bought one. | |||
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I'll meet all of you at the Obama National championships when they open shortly after 2012. Bring your best shooting eye!  /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Welcome back! | |||
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All these national titles and no international ones yet? Not even a mention of penis length either. BTW my postman can beat up your postman.p | |||
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Ray, I'll make a wager that your postman has shot rifles longer then RC. | |||
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Whooosh..........!!! | |||
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rcamuglia Excuse me but your "obvious node" covers .8 of a gr spread. Your load of 42.5 gr is not "right in the middle of the "node" either. It is .1 gr into it. My guess is that rifle is going to shoot that well with any of those loads. Your top load of 44 gr at 3344 fps (hard to read the writing) could very well shoot just as well or even better. Your possibly missing out on a better load because your stuck on a ladder rung and will never know by taking the short cut you did. All that still doesn't address the horizontal stringing of your other rifle. Be glad to meet you at Whittington or anywhere else for a shooting match. I suppose you'll want to shoot long range....full choke at 60 yards Larry Gibson | |||
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Thanks for the input Larry. I'm always learning. Nodes usually are about one full grain IME. The barrel is at a quiet spot for movement and that's why it's large. The bullet is usually exiting just before the barrel peaks on the upswing so during it's transition quietness ensues and accuracy happens. I'm at Whittington the first Sunday of every month. Bring your BB gun and long range rifle. | |||
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I doubt my old S10 ZR2 would help much, but a buddy stopped by with some kind of a HUGE Ford with a V-10 under the hood. I feel sure he could help - and he has a HUGE trailer too.  | |||
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rcmuglia Another point that you, Hot Core and others who claim great things for the "ladder" method accurately, especially quality target rifles don't realize is that many rifles will shoot a lof of loads accurately. As I pointed out in my observation of your test you selected a load in the middle and it shot well so you stopped there. If that's what you want then go with it. However, if the top end loads shoot just as well then you are giving up performance that you don't know you had because you didn't test them. I'm not saying one needs to test every combination out there but it's not difficult to select just a few componants to test. A more thorough test may very well find a better load. Using the ladder will not find those because you don't test. Simply put the ladder test may find a load but you won't know if it's the best load. How about 1000 yards prone unsupported or are you one of those F class guys that needs a rest? Larry Gibson | |||
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I see the point Larry and it has merit. I've tried both methods as I posted with the same rifle and components. Each test gave the same result. Before signing up here, I had done a lot of loading and reading about what works. Audette's worked for me then and now. I also read about seating depth's affect on accuracy. I was and still am now amazed at how much affect it has. I did a bit of testing with simply finding the load FOOBAR talks about; highest velocity load just before pressure signs. I would simply take this load and adjust seating depth to find accuracy. It worked many times and didn't sometimes. The times it didn't work, it could have been just the barrel didn't like the bullet choice. I tested the same rifle with a few different bullets. When I posted it here it created good discussion. I've caught woods on it. I think he was doing the same thing for a while and having success, but didn't want to say  After doing a lot of experimenting, I realized that you really can't make the rifle shoot what you want and cartridge parameters that you want. Every barrel has different harmonics and you have to shoot what it wants | |||
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I had a precision/tactical match in mind or the Sporting Rifle Match. No sighters. No wind flags. First shot hits only count of course. Many unsupported postions. Better have your equipment and data just right. Kinda like real shooting. | |||
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rcmuglia The point is you won't know what the rifle "wants" just by using the ladder method. That's why this and other forums are frought with frustrated shooters trying to use it to no avail. Had they used the traditional method they would have found a good load much quicker with less componants used just as most of us do. Additionally if you did then go about testing the other "node" lodes by shooting groups then you used just as many componants and just as much time, if not more of both, than you would have using the traditional method of working up a load, shooting groups. So if you did that then what was the purpose of the "ladder test" to begin with.....no real purpose at all. That is the point. BTW; I've ben know to do a little bit of "real" shooting....must be why I won IPSC championships and LEO championships with tactical and sniper rilfles......and survived 2 wars and numerous shitholes along with instructing in tactics and weapons to military and LEO around the world for 40 years .......no sighters, no wind flags and only the 1st hit counts there. So you see your chest thumping and fancy foot work don't scare me at all as some of us may just know as much as you claim, been there and done that perhaps a little more than you claim and might just have a little more ability than you claim to. I give all the credit for shooting a shotgun quite well but that still does not make the ladder system the best method for developing a load for a rifle, especially for beginners. Annndddd....you still haven't addressed the horizontal stringing of that one load.......  Larry Gibson | |||
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How many trophies do you have for arrogancy? You're sure loaded with it. I bet you roll your gonads around in a wheelbarrow too? I'm ashamed to be of the same nationality of you, or should I say that nationality is ashamed of you? Throw in being a fellow American. What do your serve at your restaurant..bullshit? | |||
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rcmuglia Thinking about our shooting match. Obviously you live somewhere close to Whitington? I live in Washington, a considerable distance farther, but I do get down Arizona way every year. How about we meet in the wide open spaces off I40 on BLM ground. That way neither of us has "home court advantage" so to speak. We can put 2 E targets or 2 M9 targets, if you want scoring, up and then move off to 1000 yards. We can just liesureally stroll toward the targets and stop when we agree, assume an agreed position and shoot 1 shot then move forward again. We can shoot 10 shots, 20 shots or what ever we agree on and whatever spot we choose to stop and shoot. You want to use a rest, that's ok. A sling, that's ok, A shooting mat, that's ok. A shooting jacket, fine with me. Adjust sights, ok by me. Use a range finder, ok by me also. Time limit for the shot, good to go. I'm pretty much open for just about anything as long as you carry it with you. That pretty much makes it "real" and "tactical" unless you want a running gunfight IPSC type course. How about it? Larry Gibson | |||
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If you show up to Whittington, a 60 target course is set for us with the same parameters. There's no "home advantage" whatsoever as no one has ever hit every target since the inception. It is a very difficult place to diagnose the wind. Tubbs shot there and found that out. The Precision match is so much more difficult in comparison. | |||
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Does this mean the thread should be moved to the big bores forum? /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I have a couple of suggestions if I may? Firstly, please do keep cordial, this is a fascinating chance for two obviously talented shooters of different disciplines to try something interesting. I think who "wins" would be irrelevant compared to why the chap wins. Larry has made his tactical suggestion of 1000 yards prone unspupported ( crafty buggers, old target shooters! ) and Rick has made his equally tactical suggestion of a Service rifle match.Now I mean no offense nor to impune the skills of any of the two but it seems to me that the man competing on his own terms has the advantage. A man used to a bipod will be lucky to be on paper at 1000 using a military sling wrapped round one arm and the man used to being able to settle down in a jacket into a natural point of aim will be at a disadvantage sooting dangling half over a rock with no sighters. What is the aim here, to establish which guy is better at which event or what? If it isn't then I think we are basically talking about who can read the wind better, Iam assuming nobody is slandering anybody else's trigger squeeze and breathing here, and who can load the better ammunition. In that case why not have a benchrest style competition of 1 shot each in turn to a total of 15 and then do it again in the afternoon to test loading technique and wind reading. | |||
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That's what the SRM is except in field shooting, hunting situaitons. 99% of the shots are prone from your bipod. I test those skills every month against the best around. LG is welcome to attend. | |||
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And you tell me there is no "home court advantage"....get real. You shoot there all the time, you know the ranges, you know the conditions....99% of the shots from prone with bipod is hardly "real" or "tactical", it is simply playing the game. I didn't mention service rifles BTW but that would be fine with me also, especial rack grade with no match modifications. But what you're telling us is you simply shoot F class across a "course". Come shoot with me where neither of us have shot before at unkown ranges (at least until we stop moving forward and agree to shoot). Lets shoot prone supported (you can use your bipod - probably one of those stretch the rules to the max Sinclair Tactical/Varmint or F Class bipods eh?) from 1000 to 700 yards. From 700 to 500 yards we shoot prone unsupported. The sitting unsupported from 500 - 300 yards and finally off hand (no sticks allowed) at 300 - 100 yards. That would surely be a lot more "tactical" and "real" than shooting 59 out of 60 shots prone supported with a bipod. Are you up for that? Larry Gibson BTW; Field and hunting is not done with 99% of the shots prone off bipods. I think perhaps you watch too many TV "hunting" shows. Also if you'd bother to read what I've written on the ladder method I've not said it was "worthless", just said it was not the best nor the fastest way to find the best load. Yes you can find an "accurate load" but you've unintensionally proven it's not the fastest nor the most economic way to the best load for a rifle and a given set of componants. That's where you, HC and others fail in your claims for the ladder method. | |||
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Rick, I never intended to start a pissing match. I know you like long range shooting and I merely showed you a target from a friend shot from an entirely different format because I thought you would have been interested. No, you took it the wrong way and went on a tyrant. Surprising to you I'm building another rifle it's not wearing a LW barrel. It's wearing a Shilon. | |||
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