As I stated in the heading, I am new to modern Savage bolt action rifles, Model 16 in particular. I am in the process of working up a load with it for a 87 gr. Sierra Sptz. bullet and have tried a WIDE variety of powders. When ever I get near 3000 fps with any load/powder combo, I get some of the worst flattened primers I have ever seen. I have tried CCI 200 and Fed. 215s. I have noticed the face of the bolt is concave and the primers belly out to fill that profile. I have several loading manuals that show loads for bolt action rifles, a Sierra reloading manual being one of them, and I am no where near their max. loading nor velocity. I have found that this rifle has almost no leade and that if I seat bullets to the stated 2.515" OAL I am touching the lands. even had a bullet get stuck on the lands when I opended the bolt to remove the un-fired case when checking the case length. Even with the flattened primers I don't have any sticky cases and I can't detect any harder bolt lift between having a round in the chamber and not, although the bolt on a Saveage feels totally different than a Winchester or Remington due to the way it is desinged. As I stated in my heading, I am out of my comfort zone, and would like some opinions from Savage rifle owners.

Are the flattened primers cause for alarm even though I am not getting a sticky bolt/sticky case extraction? Nor am I at a higher velocity with the 87 gr. bullets. It doesn't matter what powder I use, whenever I get near the 3000 fps mark the primers flatten, and I mean bad. Due to the concave bolt face the cases get a rub mark on the case face also. Havn't seen any ejector marks to speak of. The chamber is VERY close tolerance. I do see reamer tool marks on the soft Remington brass that I am using.

Should I stop at the loads I currently have, maybe even back up or am I safe to go ahead until I get a sticky bolt and sticky cases? As per several books, I should get close to 3150-3200 fps. with several powders and the 87 gr. bullets.

BTW, the accuracy has been phenominal. I have never had a rifle shoot this good straight out of the box without any work! And that includes Remington, Winchester, Tikka, CZ.

What caliber are you shooting?

87 grains sounds like a .25 caliber to me.

All rifles are different as to what they will tolerate for pressure. Few things to consider here, are you FL resizing or Neck sizing your brass? Nobody said the case OAL has to be 2.515", have you tried seating your bullets .020 off the lands or deeper? Remeber your manual is a guideline there are too many rifles for it to be set in stone, find what works with your rifle.

Here is the other thing I've learned over the years. I don't care how fast my load is going or if I ever reach a max load as long as it is accurate. An 87 grain bullet zipping along at slightly under 3000 fps is going to ruin a varmints day anyway so don't worry about it. Just enjoy your accurate rifle and have fun shooting it, this if JMO but an accurate rifle is much more fun than a fast one.

If the face of your bolt is indeed concave, I can see all sorts of reloading problems. In fact, I would imagine it would contour the head of the case so's it wouldn't even fit in a shell holder.

FWIW, with modern rifles, a bit of flattening or even cratering around the pin strike is not a cause for concern. The Remington bolt faces have a over sized hold for the firing pin and even on light loads you will get cratering. If you are getting flattened primers on the first firing of your brass, it could be a head space problem that will go away is you set up your dies to reload for your chamber. Or go to partial full length resizing with your 1X brass.

FWIW, there's nothing magical about 3000fps. Many believes there is but it ain't so. The best velocity window for best bullet performance is well below that.

Thanks for your replies guys.
I failed to mention in my late night post that the rifle is a 250 Savage. I am getting the extremely flattened primers when the velocity approaches low 2900 fps. on up, and gets particlular bad when I get near or over 3000fps. Again, I have never seen primers flatten this bad in any of my other rifles ie. post 64 Win. M-70s (mostly) a few m-700s, a Tikka and a CZ 550. I load to the upper end of the spectrum on most of them. I always use ease of case extraction, sticky bolt lift and brass flow (into the chamber & ejector) as my main criteria for excessive pressure.

I have shot a full 50 rounds of new brass and then partial-resized the same 50. None of the primer pockets have shown any expansion that could be noticed with a hand primer and the resizing was the same as far as ease of part. resizing.

The 2.515" OAL is shown by the Sierra manual as max for their 87 gr. bullet which I am currently using. When I seated to that length, the bullet stuck on the lands and pulled from a loaded round, spilling powder etc. I am currently being forced to seat at 2.480" OAL with the same bullet.

The reason I am shooting for the 3000 fps. is for trajectory reasons and for the simple fact that a Savage M-99 lever gun can achieve this, so I feel a bolt gun should do the same. If I stay in the upper 2700 fps to mid/upper 2800 then there are no flattened primers.

I am beginning to think that maybe the concave bolt face is the contributing factor for the flat primers. The primers begin to leave the pocket a tad and then flare outward making it look worse than what it is. I hope but don't know. Again the chamber/throat appear to be very tight and close. I am getting reamer marks on the soft Remington brass when approaching the 3000 fps. mark also. But again no hard case extraction.
I have tried H-4895, IMR 4064, IMR 4320, H-380, Win. 760, H-4350 & RL-19. All powders grouped excellant to VERY acceptable with the H-4350 being most accurate of all so far. Note: the primer flattening occured with all powders when approaching the 2900 plus velocity mark.

The concavity on the bolt face appears to be just at the primer area and is pretty much the same diameter. I don't think that my loads could have made the bolt face concave, could it? The Savage bolt head appears to be forged and polished instead of machined but I don't know that. Can't tell.

One more thing, I have Weaver bases and Weaver Medium rings on the rifle with a 4.5-14X40 Grand Slam scope on it. I noticed that I ran out of elevation adjusment on the scope. I did some checking here at the forum and found someone else had the same thing happen to them on a Model 16 Sav. in a 204 Ruger caliber. I thought this a bit strange. Will be getting the Burris ZEEs and compensate for that until I can get another scope to play with.

The easiest thing to do if you are worried about the boltface flatness is to change out the bolt head. It takes about 10 minutes for a simpleton to do. (It took me 20 minutes my first time and I could probably do it in 10 if I had more practice.)

Can you post a photo of the concave bolt face? I have never seen one. If the primer is top hatting you indeed have space directly behind the primer. roger

Fjold,
Thanks for the tip but,
it's not that I am worried about the bolt face being concave or bellied in or what not, it is that I am wondering if it is causing my problems with the pre-mature flattened primers before I reach said velocities of known lower pressures in lever guns.

I want to achieve 3000 plus feet per second, prefer 3150 fps., with at least a 87 grain bullet as two of my older manuals suggest with a bolt -action rifle.
It may not happen and appears it probably won't, but as I said I am out of my comfort zone and don't know what to look for or expect with a modern Savage rifle.

Rock on! Before you say trajectory is what drives your quest, I'd suggest taking a look at a ballistic table. At the difference in the POI at say 300 yards between 3000fps and 2800fps with a zero of 100 or 200yards. (a .250 ain't exactly a lazer)

When I look in my very old Hornady book, I find only one powder that will exceed 3000 and the rest reach 3000fps only by red lining. In my much newer Lyman 48th, it shows that 3031 will exceed 3000fps but all the rest of the listed powders fall below 3000fps.

Bartshe,
I will have a go at posting a pic for you. I am not very computer saavy and do not have much time at home as I am always on the road - somewhere. But I will give it a try, maybe this weekend.

Wasbeeman,
as per the Sierra manual that I have, the rifle used for load developement was a 24" barrel Mauser action. The powders listed, I believe, were IMR 4064, 4320, and IMR 4895.....I think. I know there were three listed. And several showing 3100 fps. In any event, if I can't get 3000 fps., without excessive pressure then the velocity will be dismal with a 110,117 gr. bullet.
My old Nosler manual also showed some good velocities with a bolt action 250 Sav.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
FWIW, there's nothing magical about 3000fps. Many believes there is but it ain't so. The best velocity window for best bullet performance is well below that.

Wasbeeman,
I disagree.
The full name of the cartridge is 250-3000 Savage not 250-2800 Savage. And it was done in a M-99. This particular rifle shot just as well at 3000fps. as it did in the 2700 fps. range. It just had the VERY flat primer issue, if it is a issue. I have never had a rifle that has shot this good straight out of the box, and with such a wide spectrum of powders to boot.

(If velocity doesn't matter then we would all be hunting with 30-30s and 22LR and the African guys would be using a 45-70 gov't. for DG.)

Hey Rae, Get a strong light, your Bolt, a Flat Tip Screwdriver, and a pair of Magnifying Reading Glasses. Hold the Screwdriver tip across the Firing Pin Hole and see if it is in fact Concave. Check with the light on the "other side" of the Screwdriver Tip and if you can see light coming underneath the Tip, it is concave. I've never seen that situation before on ANY rifle I've ever had, but that does not mean it is not possible.

As far as "looking at Primers", I've done it for over 5-decades and it can be very misleading. They will Flatten with HIGH Pressure as well as Low Pressure. If it is too Low, they can back out during Firing and then the Case is Forced back onto them. And it can be as simple as the particular Lot of Primers having a slightly "Soft" Cup. This is not near as common as it used to be, but with the HIGH demand for Primers, you never know.

There are still only two reliable ways to know what is happening with Pressure - CHE & PRE. You certainly do not need to use either, but of course then you do not know spit about the actual Pressure.

Congratulations on getting a "Shooter".

Best of luck to you.

Take this for what it is worth. The only powder that I had showing getting the 85-87 grain bullet to 3000 fps and beyond was H380. This was in my Sierra V, Nosler #5, Speer #12, and Lyman 49th manuals. Hogdon's web site only shows IMR 8208 XBR as the only powder getting the 87 grain bullet to 3100 fps. Plus all my manuals that show accuracy loads showed the best accuracy with these bullets around 2900 fps.

Here is a list of powders that all the manuals said would get you to at least 3000 fps:

IMR 3031, 4895, 4064, 4320, 8208 XBR
H380, 414, BL-C(2), Varget

quote:

Rock on! Before you say trajectory is what drives your quest, I'd suggest taking a look at a ballistic table. At the difference in the POI at say 300 yards between 3000fps and 2800fps with a zero of 100 or 200yards. (a .250 ain't exactly a lazer)

The .250 Savage with and 200 yard zero this is there drop at 300 yards.

-8.5" @ 2900 fps
-7.8" @ 3000 fps
-7.2" @ 3100 fps
-6.9" @ 3150 fps
-6.7" @ 3200 fps

So you are looking at 1.6" of difference at 300 yards at your target velocity. Now you have to decide if you want to try and get there if you are showing signs of pressure to get a 1.6" flatter trajectory.

Taylor,
I never thought the 250 to ba a laser. But I did think it could achieve 3000 fps. without any trouble. And again I also want to shoot 100 gr. plus bullets. Having said that if the rifle won't make 3000 + fps., and more likely 2850 fps. with 87 gr. it will probably be alot less with the heavier bullets. Then the trajectory will be much more arc like.

I WILL live with what ever the rifle gives me and I WILL BE HAPPY!
One more time - the rifle shoots just as well and maybe even a little better at the higher velocity end as does at the lower. And the lower end is great! It is the flattened primers that I am getting WITHOUT any noticable heavy bolt lift/harder case extraction (and other signs) being present that has me wondering. I was hoping maybe another Savage owner might chime-in on the subject and give me some insight on what might be happening and if there is any cause for alarm.

F87 grain bullet in the 250-3000

42grain H414, 3297 fps.

41grain H380, 3210 fps.

37grain H4895, 3208 fps.

36grain Rl15, 3136 fps.

36grain BL-C, 3114 fps.

35.5grain IMR4064, 3075 fps.

35grain H335, 3075 fps.

41grain H4350, 3063 fps.

34grain IMR3031, 3055 fps.

100grain bullet, 40grain H414, 3102 fps.

My long throated 250-3k Stevens wll meet most of this performance.
What hindered the original cartridge to reach 3000fps. with a 100 grain bullet was the short OAL determined by the rifle and the pressure capability of the same rifle. These compounded by the contemporary powders available. roger

Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone..

Not trying to upset you in anyway with my posts. I've got two Stevens rifles in 6x47 and .223. I've had primers slightly crater and flatten on one load for my 6x47 and go up 1/2 to 1 grain from that and have them look normal again. You have to decide wheather or not you want to push the cartridge and rifle.

Thanks Taylor and Bartche,
I think I will go up a bit and see what happens.

If you wanted a 25 caliber that would shoot 3000fps and handle heavy for caliber bullets maybe you should not have gotten the smallest one of the bunch. Maybe a 25-06 or .257 Wby is what you really want.

Don't sweat a couple hundred fps if the gun shoots good and you want the small round. Just because it was named 250/3000 doesn't mean every rifle can do it.

According to Hodgdon, using 35.0gr of IMR 8208 XBR will produce 3103 fps with a 10 twist, REM 9 1/2 primer and 24" barrel. I own several Savage rifles and have never seen a concave bolthead, not saying it's impossible, it is man made. But I agree it could be a headspace issue. As far as your velocity it could be a barrel twist matter, a slower twist can increase FPS with the same load, so I've been told. Good luck, hope you achieve your goal.

If I remember my history, the term 250-3000 was a marketing decision not a ballistic reality. By red-lining a 87gr bullet they alledged to get 3000fps. (with the powders available then, I'm sure that was quite a feat).
The developers of the cartridge wanted to bring the rifle to market with a 120gr bullet but were over-ruled by marketing. There's that magic 3000fps again.

Well...Well...Well,
With Winchester LR primers, 36.5 gr.of H-4895, and 87 gr. Sierra spt. bullets and a Chrony chonograph I am getting 3120-3155 fps. out of 22" barrel. I am not getting a sticky bolt nor sticky case....yet. The Win. primers do not seem to flatten as bad as the Fed. 215 primers (but they do flatten) nor get flowing of the primer into the firing pin hole like the Feds did. Have not seen any brass flow either. Oh yeah and the accuracy is still there too.

In my limited experience compared to the others here, Federal primers always flattened more than the other brands using the same load. Merg

Just to edumacate this thread: The "Savage Dimple" results when Savage's parts contractor tosses the machined bolt heads into a vibratory tumbler. The ceramic media do something geologists call "spheroidal erosion", and create a concave dimple where they eat at the edges of the firing pin hole.
I've owned 3 savage rifles with this dimple. One was serious enough that I ordered a new bolt head from Savage to replace it. The replacement part was dimpled but not as badly. it was fixed with a bit of bubbasmithing.

quote:

Originally posted by Nomo4me:
Just to edumacate this thread: The "Savage Dimple" results when Savage's parts contractor tosses the machined bolt heads into a vibratory tumbler. The ceramic media do something geologists call "spheroidal erosion", and create a concave dimple where they eat at the edges of the firing pin hole.
I've owned 3 savage rifles with this dimple. One was serious enough that I ordered a new bolt head from Savage to replace it. The replacement part was dimpled but not as badly. it was fixed with a bit of bubbasmithing.

Interesting, may I ask where you got this info?

I have shot lots of handloads through two Savage 7 mag rifles. They seem to flatten primers on lots of different loads. I think maybe it is somewhat the configuration of the rifle, but I don't get too worked up about it unless I get other pressure signs.

The 250 Sav will easily exceed 3000 fps with an 87 gr bullet in a modern bolt action rifle. A little extra barrel length will improve the results also. My 600 Rem with a 25" bbl does 3400 with 75gr, 3200 with 85-90 gr and 3000 with 100 gr with no pressure signs and excellent brass life, at least 10 loadings with no loose primer pockets. I need to rebarrel my rifle, at last count there was 5000 rounds and too many times there were just too many prairie dogs begging to be shot.

www.duanesguns.com

quote:

I have found that this rifle has almost no leade and that if I seat bullets to the stated 2.515" OAL I am touching the lands. even had a bullet get stuck on the lands when I opended the bolt to remove the un-fired case when checking the case length.

quote:

My long throated 250-3k Stevens wll meet most of this performance.

As Bartsche stated, more leade= lower pressures. You might try seating your bullets a bit deeper.

Regards,
hm

I bought a Remington 788 in 22-250. When I first got it. I couldn't even shoot factory loads in it. The factory loads blew primers. I ended up sending it back to the factory. They said the chamber was Rusted. They set the barrel back one thread, and rechambered it.
It shot great after that. Most anything I shot out of it shot 1/2 inch or better.
I think I might get your rifle checked out. It may just be a problem that got by the inspectors at the factory.
I like the 250 Savage. It gives up very little to a 257 Roberts and not much more to the 25-06.
Compare what your loading book tells you. 50-100 fps behind the 257, 150-200 behind the 25-06. It does this with much less powder, in a shorter lighter rifle.

Have you checked headspace?

Fred at Sharpshooter Supply can correct that dished bolthead for you.

From Ammo Guide...........


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bullet Make & Wt. (gr) Powder Type
Charge (gr)
Muzzle Vel. (fps)
K. E. (ft-lbs)
Barrel Len. (in)
Owner

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

87 Remington IMR-4064
37.0CM
3205
1985
24.0
View
stigma
87 Remington IMR-4064
37.0CM
3205
1985
24.0
View
stigma
87 Speer Hodgdon H-4895
37.0
3208
1989
26.0
View
ammoguide
87 Speer Hodgdon H-380
41.0
3210
1991
26.0
View
ammoguide
87 Remington IMR-4320
38.0M
3236
2023
24.0
View
stigma
87 Remington IMR-3031
35.0M
3247
2037
24.0
View
stigma

Since most loading data for the .250 Savage is limited to the low SAAMI pressures intended for the M99, you simply can't say that exceeding those loads is "redlining" or unsafe - they only produce 45,000 cup or less for goodness sakes. Lyman is one of the few to list "bolt action" level loads. #48 lists several loads reaching or exceeding 3200 fps with 90 grain bullets. So does Sierra for their 87 grain bullet. Relax on the overload worries, just follow proven loading techniques just as you would for any wildcat and you'll be fine.


.

Fjold: Didn't you kind of forget that the headspace would need to be rechecked? Being from Backerfield you need to check my post on the new Barnes titauim bullet under "Reloading".

I've been playing with Savage rifles since the early 60's. I have 2 LA and 2 SA actions and a bunch of barrels and stocks to swap around...AND several bolts and boltheads to play with also...and yes the Savage is probably the most accurate out of the box rifle out there. I've also built a Savage rifle for many of the members of my family.

Many of the boltheads were slightly dished when I acquired them and I just chucked them in the lathe and faced them flush, then reset the headspace to fit the sizing die for minimal brass working. You can have your bolthead "blueprinted" by SharpShootersSupply at http://www.sharpshootersupply.com/ to solve that problem...plus all the latest "goodies" for Savages.

Not to put too fine a point on it but you NEED to re-read the hows and whys of reloading in most any of the reloading books. The fact of velocity differences in rifles, differences in chamber dimensions, seating problems etc are pretty well covered. Too many times reloaders gloss over the basics that are the REAL valuable portions. No diss or flame intended...I continually have reality checks on myslef and learn new things daily.

Forget what the manuals say except for the basic idea of reloading and load for YOUR rifle's differences. Each rifle has it's own idiosyncracies and what one rifle in one manual happened to chrono doesn't mean you will get the same results. I'm old fat and ugly and I sure can't outrun the kid on the farm down the road. We forget that rifles are in the same boat...not all created equal.

Buy a set of headspace/OAL gauges(AND a chronograph, if you are using velocity data from a manual you are alread in deep doodoo), find out WHAT the seating length is for YOUR rifle, for EACH different bullet and EACH different brand...they all have different ogives...and start over. ONE seating OAL doesn't cut it.

Measure an unfired case, load it, fire it, then measure it again...base OD, shoulder OD, base to about the middle of the shoulder, neck OD and ID, case wall thickness...you need references before you can even begin to talk about your problems in a meaningful way, otherwise is it just whizzing in the wind.

Flattened primers per se don't mean doodly...but if you get flattened primers, hard bolt lift, expanded primer pockets, head separation, etc you might take a hard look at all the wrong things your doing.

If you have a tight chamber, you might be a smidge too tight for the neck wall thickness of the brass you are using, which would increase pressures, flatten primers but not necessarily cause case sticking.

You definitely need to back off until you identify what is going on...that goes without saying.

Start at the beginning with a middle load after you have measured everything and have some reference points to use. Use only ONE load, ONE bullet, ONE powder, ONE primer and ONE brand of case. Bench prep the cases. Bouncing around amoung components only confuses the issue. Work the load up until you have some data to work with. Change ONE parameter at a time.

The problem usually is that of patience...most people don't have the patience to work through in a uniform way which is too bad because you usually get much better and quicker result that way.

Everyone here gave you very good bits of advice. I've been "reading" primers as long as Hot Core and I think it is like reading tea leaves...pretty much a myth that won't go away...what a primer does is only a very small part of the total equation. I've have several calibers that NEVER showed flattened primers until the pressure was sky high and I need a hammer to get the bolt out.

Plus it takes a while to get the bark knocked of of the lands and grooves. You will find as the barrel breaks in your velocity will increase for a while then start dropping off until it stabilizes...but it can also go the other way....remember again...your rifle is an individual just like yourself. Treat it as such.

I have a 250 Savage AI on a Rem Md788 action, with a Douglas #2 countour 22" bbl. Because of the rear locking lugs I can't attain the velocities I could get with a front locking lug action, plus the cases stretch more at the top end velocities and pressures in the 788, Sav 99, or any other levergun for that matter. Then you have the difference of barrel lengths between your rifle and what the loading manual used AND the difference in receivers.

Remember a reloading manual is ONLY a reference...and should be used as a guide, not the last word.

Hornady 87 SP's, Nosler 85 and 75 Vmax's shoot the best in my 250 AI with H380, AA2700, H4350. Now that I have a supply of 8208 and RL-17 I will try those.

I've mentioned it several times on this forum that I used to load a 100 rounds every so often for an ol' boy and his Md99 250...Rem 100 gr corelokts at factory velocity. He shot EVERYTHING with that load...moose, elk, deer, varmints etc. It always brought home the meat and usually with one shot.

I like my 250 AI. It does the job just as well as any of my other rifles when matched to the game.

Enjoy yours.

Luck