The price on these rifles is going to come down over the next few months. What is you primary intended use?
JCN

OK Covey, Like I said at the 1st, I really don't know a thing about these guns. How hard is it to assemble from parts? Sounds a little intimidating looking from the outside in.

Terry

If you're willing to spend in the thousand dollar range, buy a complete Rock River Lower of your choice(a2 stock,A1 stock,collapsing stock whatever) or a Bushmaster(along with a non Bushmaster aftermarket trigger ) and then call White Oak Precision,Accuracy Speaks orCompass Lake and tell them what you intend to use the rifle for. They will build an upper that will amaze you for much less than you think.

You will also save on taxes along the way.



An 18" slim profiled barrel, flat topped ,A1 stocked ,scoped AR15 upper from Derrick Martin is a compact amazingly accurate fun gun that might fit your needs.



Covey16



Ps in the interest of equal time,Frank White or John Holliger and several others can build the same gun of equal quality for the same money. Choice mainly decided by who can deliver soonest.

TC1, you will like having an AR15 for coyotes. Several varmint hunters in my area use them in preference to bolt guns for those dogs. I'd get a medium weight 20" barrel though, these guns are not that heavy, being mostly aluminum and plastic.

TC1, One factor you might consider in building a "parts gun" is that a factory made rifle in general will hold its value better. You may have built a better mousetrap but any custom rifle usually looses more of it's cost during resale than a box stock gun. This is true of other types of Custom rifles also. I've bought/sold/traded in the neighborhood of 15-20 AR-15's so I have some good experience to base this opinion on. I think it's good advice to build custom if you know exactly what you want and will get the full use out of it but buy a stock gun if you want to play around and possibly buy/sell/trade it later.
I think that the modular Bushmaster with a Eotech sight would make a fun home defense/coyote gun. You could pop the EOTECH off and slap a scope on if you wanted a longer range rifle.
With proper ammuntion a 223 will have less chance of overpenetration in a home situation than many 12guage shotgun loads. I think that Clint Smith did some tests on this in a recent "Guns"? magazine........DJ

TC1
In case I missunderstood your post about building from parts and you were talking about a do it yourself from the ground up, it's about like assembling your kids bicycle on christmas morning.
You can put together a shootable AR with hand tools,a pipe wrench and a vise.No exaggeration, it's been done.
To do it right, at a minimum you need a DPMS barrel wrench combi tool,an upper receiver holding device of some kind,a torque wrench, pin punches, hand tools and easily obtained knowledge on gas tube alignment and disconnector setup.
Headspace is virtually never a problem with quality parts as this is set by whoever screws the barrel extension onto the barrel.
That won't be you unless you are setup for real gunsmithing.
Generally they just fall together, but you need to know what "correct assembly" looks like for function and safety.
Generally, if you are going to have just 1 AR in your life, it's not worth accumulating the proper tools.
If AR's grab you, you'll buy the above mentioned tools and more. .

My final comment is to stay away from Les Baer, Wilson Combat etc unless you just want the name recognition.

There are a lot of folks out there that can meet or exceed their results for substantially less money.

Covey16

TC,
You can get the Rock River Arms lower assembly (with the target trigger installed) pre-assembled for about $300.00 - #350.00 . As Covey said, White Oak Precision/ White Oak Armament makes a varmint upper that will just water your eyes at how accurate it is. You can even get them in the new .204 caliber.

This may surprise you, but the M-193, 55 grain FMJBT round gives LESS overpenetration of interior house walls than 9mm, 40 Slow & Weak, or 45 ACP bullets fired from handguns. A shotgun with #6 shot or less will cause the least overpenetration (if shot out of an open choked barrel).

RB Precision has some of the best prices going on Rock River Arms products. The owner's day job is with Rock River:
http://www.rbprecision.com/index.htm

A wonderful book is The AR-15 Complete Assembly Guide by Walt Kuleck with Clint McKee. It is available from Brownells and Fulton Armory.

If you have any specific questions during this process, feel free to shoot me a PM. You can give Covey a call. He is usually available from 11 pm to 3 am

Price decreases will likely be modest.

JCN

JCN
Call if you hear about work.
I'm available for parties and Bar Mitzvah's.

Covey16

I'll agree with covey on the Wilson's being a little overpriced, but of all the AR-15's I've owned the Les Baer is the best - I hope to buy another one someday. It's kinda like buying Starrett Micrometers and measuring tools - others will measure just as accurately but the Starretts are definately nicer if you can afford them.......DJ

I've never owned a Bushmaster gun, but have shot several owned by buddies that worked well. I've built several using DPMS receivers, they make both cast and forged, and I used a heavy upper to support a 24" bull barrel that's very accurate (10 shot groups = .3 moa) and crowds my .22-250 for velocity. I've found Olympic Super Match barrels very accurate, but no more so than the DPMS barrels. I like the Jewel triggers, Krieger barrels, and Derrick Martin's free float tubes. Get Glenn Zediker's book, The Competitive AR15, Zediker Publishing, Zediker, and Derrick Martin's book, The Complete Book of AR15 Accuracy from Accuracy Speaks. I've had best results getting lower receiver parts from one vendor, sometimes tolerances stack up against you if you mix parts. Pay particular to twist rates and match it to your intended bullet weight and these guns are amazingly accurate. The best will shoot with the bolt guns. Most importantly, they are lots of fun to shoot.

Thanks guy's! I wanted some people in the know to respond and I think I got that in spades ! The store owner wants $1099 for the rifle, What do you think about the price? He's usually in line on his prices. I've been looking around and would seem to be cheaper to buy this rifle and have the trigger changed than to buy the plain vanilla modify it to what I want. It's set up pretty much the way I'd want it with the exception of a flash hider, I guess I could live without that or have it added later.



Terry

I have a Colt CAR15 and a Colt M16. Both are set up as anti-personel (flashlights lasers and HALO sites with folding stocks). Both shoot decent. I have shot the AR-15 Varmit style Bushy. The are nothing short of incredible. From reading your posts, I would lean away from the modular IMO. They had some problems but they are supposed to be good to go now. Get a solid stocked flat top, with a floated barrel in the varmit configuration. DMPS makes an upper that replaces the the 223 upper on any AR and you can shoot 22LR for plinking. Rock River and Bushy would be my first choices, Oly arms and DPMS are coming along also. Good luck they are a blast with which ever you decide.

Wound Ballistics Review ,
This is the journal put out by the International Wound Ballistics Association (IWBA).

Because of the nature of your work you would be eligible to join, and order back issues.

I gave mine to my niece, because she is studying to become a forensic scientist.

I believe the pertinent article is in the following edition:

Wound Ballistics Review Volume 3 Number 4, 1998
Questions and Comments

Notice for Members Outside the USA
Viper Velocity
Review of Understanding Ballistics
Federal Lawsuit Dismissed

Forensic Pathology in Firearms Cases
Joseph H. Davis, M.D., Director (Retired), Medical Examiner Department of Miami-Dade County; Professor of Pathology Emeritus, University of Miami School of Medicine

The Wounding Effects of 5.56mm/.223 Law Enforcement General Purpose Shoulder Fired Carbines Compared with 12 Ga. Shotguns and Pistol Caliber Weapons Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant
Gary K. Roberts, DDS

Editorial Comment: Perspectives on the .223 Remington
Martin L. Fackler

A Body Armor Penetration Rumor
Duncan MacPherson

Update on the IWBA Handgun Ammunition Specification
Duncan MacPherson

A Review of the Wounding Effects of the Colt AR-15 and FN FAL Rifles used by Martin Bryant in the Port Arthur Shooting Incident, April 26, 1996; Tasmania, Australia
Sergeant Gerard Dutton, Ballistics Section, Hobart Tasmania Police;
Dr. Tim Lyons, MB ChB, FRCS(Ed), MRCPath, DMJ(Path), FRPCA(Forensic); Director of Forensic Pathology, Tasmania;
Sergeant Shaun Roach, Forensic Ballistics Section, Sydney, NSW Police;
Sergeant John Dickinson, Forensic Ballistics Section, Sydney, NSW Police.

The specific contents of the articles are not for general dissemination, but the concept of reduced over penetration has been discussed in general readership magazines ( SWAT, Special Weapons for Wannabees in the Checkout Line at Piggly Wiggly, etc. ). PM me, and I get you in touch with a forensic pathologist who does about 100 gunshot autopsies a year. He has a special interest in these types of issues, and could point you in the direction of other resources.
JCN

PS We may be talking apples and oranges. The M193 does a decent job of penetrating non armored primary targets. Once the bullet breaks at the cannelure it dissipates energy pretty quickly. The M855 ("green tip"), of course, penetrates very well. Some would say too well.
Then there is the cottage industry in semi, or fully frangible cartridges (eg some of the Hornady TAP ammunition).
JCN