Just wondering what to expect for a barrel used with moderate (not max) loads under controlled fire, i.e. keeping barrel cool enough to touch comfortably.

I'm not looking for an exact number, just a ballpark.

Thanks,
Todd

My 700 BDL has about 1600 rounds through it and I now cannot safely seat any bullets out far enough to have it touch the rifling, although the gun is still accurate enough for coyotes (3/4" three shot groups). My loads have always been moderately hot but I never let the barrel heat up and follow good cleaning procedures when I'm done for the day.

Todd, you might use the search function to check out some of the information about the 17's here on this site. I've posted several times about mine and there is lots of good info floating around on the net.

My favorite load is 25 gr Rem or Horn bullet, 25 gr IMR 4320, Rem cases, BR primers and seated to 2.21" and I guarantee that bullet doesn't come anywhere near the rifling, if there is any good rifling within 2" or so. I have it sighted dead center at 160 yds and it will put 3 in a nickel most of the time. That load works out to around 300 yds but that's pushing it in my estimation. The velocity keeps the hold over to a minimum.

I bought the rifle used and it took me over a week to get the bore clean using Sweets, JB compound and Shooters Choice and I've put close to 3000 out there since. This barrel is so rough almost half way down the bore it feels like sand paper when you run a wet patch through it.

I clean every 10 rounds with a nylon brush, patches and Butches Bore Shine because if I don't anything beyond 11 or 12 is lucky to hit the ground all due to the roughness in the first half of the barrel. I also use Sweets or CR-10, JB compound, BBS and Kroil at 50 rounds. I have some Wipe-Out coming because everyone is jumping up and down about it. It might help but it might also take out all the junk in that rough section and make me have to put on my Shilen. This barrel is so close to being a jack handle it surprises me every time I check the accuracy.

Varget is an up and coming powder and will give you about 150 fps more velocity with similar pressures to IMR 4320. I tried a set of loads with 20 gr Horns at 24.0, 24.5 and 25.0 gr but the results were poor. I have another set with 23.5, 24.0 and 24.5 with 25 gr Horns and Rems I just haven't gotten around to testing yet. Hey, the diggers are out, testing can wait.

One thing you have to be very careful of is pressures can jump REAL quick in this small bore. In the above loads I jumped 0.5 gr at a time because I've already tested loads at those levels but anytime I deal with a new 17 load that I don't have data on I go up 0.1 gr at at time. I guarantee this little booger will jump up and slap you in the snotlocker if you break out in stupid only one time. It will eat a receiver faster than a pig eating an apple. Get a wild hair SLOWLY.

This caliber got a lot of bad press from a bunch of ignorant word sellers when it first came out just like the Swift. The 17 isn't any harder on barrels than any 22 centerfire except it has to be cleaned more often. Knowledge will set you free.

I just talked to CP Donnelly about some projects I have coming up and he told me most of the people who deal with 17 on a large basis like Shilen barrels because they are smoother and don't foul to quickly. I just happen to have one waiting in the wings so it will be going to him pretty quick. PacNor also has good 17 barrels as do Kreiger, Hart, Douglas and a few others.

I have a 17 Mach IV, 22", featherweight barrel in mind for a Savage SA with a slimed down laminated stock for a walkaround potgut getter. It should do nicely out to about 250 yds. Don't get many shots beyond that where I hunt, too many trees in the way.

This isn't a caliber to play with if you don't have patients. Stuffing IMR 4320 powder down that little hole can make you very crazy and holding that tiny bullet in my gnarled fingers so it goes up the seating die right will make you a schizo quick. When I'm through loading a block of 50 I have to go outside and shot a few holes in the ground and walk around yelling to releive the tension. My dog even jumps up in the P/U until things settle down, even though I would never mistreat her. She just looks at me and smiles. Varget works better. H414, BLC-2 and H380 all flow like water but I couldn't get this 700 to shoot any of those powders well. Hope the Shilen will like the ball powders.

The 17's are great to shoot and I usually start the season with my 17 Rem then go the the bigger 22 centerfires later on when the diggers get smart. I think you can't go wrong trying one out and barrel longevity depends on how well you clean, how hot you load, what accuracy you settle for and how fast you shoot, and all these factors are debatable. Just like the Swift you can burn one out in 500 rounds or it can go 5000, just DEPENDS. Makatak

Todd
For all things 17 caliber related check out
www.coyotegods.com
Click on Forums, scroll down, click on Tech Talk with S. Frame.

The boys on that board, a real wealth of knowledge of all 17 caliber things, real and theoretical.

Gungadin 99,
Where do you get your information about Hart and Krieger making 17 caliber barrels? Shilen makes them but in select only. They don't make-um in match grade. I think the next one I build is going to be with a pac-nor. I have a Shilen now and it is a shooter but is offered with a 10 twist only. I want to try something a little tighter and Berger 30gr. bullets.
Try some Re-7 and Hornady 20gr. pills. I get real good groups with 18.0 and they are still running 3750-3800.

Ahhhhhh. It's great to find a place where people aren't stupid about .17s. Enjoyed the post Gungadin99 - of course a lot of that has to do with the fact that my experience (cleaning every 10 shots, very sensitive to minute reloading changes, etc.) and opinions (it's a very good/accurate caliber that got bad press by ignorant word sellers) are very similar.

I add only that since I use the .17 on big game, I restrict max ranges to 150 or less, and I consider 150 to be "pushing it". My 10-year-old daughter took her first caribou with a .17. One shot, 139yds (laser ranger). Didn't leave his tracks and dead when he hit the ground.

BTW, mine shots ten at 100 yds in a perfect circle that would cut a quarter out. 21.0 grains of H414 behind a 25 grain Hornady HP: mean MV 4115, SD 17, N=121. Haven't checked the MV and SD in a few years, so barrel wear MAY have changed the figures, but accuracy hasn't changed since the day I bought it. Also used.

Paul

Yo' Lightnin;

I may have done a whoops listing Kreiger and Hart having 17 barrels. You'll have to check their sites. I was basically listing excellent barrels makers to go to, ones I've used and recommend. I have used their barrels in 22 cal and above but not 17 and just didn't look first.

Thanks, All, for the load info. I haven't used RE-7 at all and don't have any in my stockpile. I was looking for velo's in the 4200 + range with the 20's using Berger moly's and Horn's clean, and all I was getting was BIG patterns. Most of the problem was mixing moly and clean AND a totaly wasted barrel, but it's now on the order list. RE-7 is tweaking the "littl grey cells" and I know I had it on the "to try" list for something else but just can't dig it out. Lightnin, you're making me totaly crazy until I find what it was.

I have several pounds of H414 and have used it in almost every caliber and bullet weight I have, EXCEPT for the 17. I just sorta blew right over it. Tried it in my 22-243 and 6mm-284 but neither liked it. I think I had other problems going on at the same time. Got a little crosseyed and was blaming the powder, I think. I'm working on a new barrel in 22-243 for a LA Savage and H414 will be among the starters. It works well as a swap for the 4350's, around 2 gr more or less to start, when I'm trying to squeeze the group and the 435's aren't cooperting. I'm working on loads for my newly aquired 25-06 and it features a prominent role in the 100-120 range.

One of the best things about this site is the information that is stored on all those magnificent minds out there that becomes available for those who listen and have open minds. AND, it is also the worst thing because many of those minds a totally locked and twisted.
The aggressive nature of Homo Sapiens got us to where we are now, I just hope it doesn't wipe us all out as a species.

Thanks again all and Keep on, Keepin' on. Makatak

Gitano,
Like JoeM said the coyotegods site is the place for all things 17. What cartridge was your daughters rifle chambered for.

Gitano:
Please tell us what .17 round you are shooting?
A load of 21grs. of H414 in a 17Rem is a very light load. Most of the guys shooting H414 in the Rem. case use around 26grs. and this usually
dosn't break 4000-fps.
There are 2 sides to every story. I have been shooting the 17Rem. for coyote calling off and on for the last three years. Quite often if the coyote is over 150yds. it will run with a lung shot. If there is snow on the ground no problem. If on the other hand the gound is bare and the grass is alittle tall you can spend alot of time looking for the critter. The secret to shooting a .17 for coyote calling is to have a good tracking dog.

Pete and Lightnin,

.17 Rem. on a 700 action. I'm as surprised at the 26 grain figure as you are at the 21. I'm not sure I could get 26 grains in my .17 Rem. Possible, but it would certainly be near 100% case capacity. The rifle is an '81 if I remember correctly.

I made the mistake of shooting a Sitka black-tail at a range approaching 250 yds. And as usual, I shot it in the chest, behind the shoulder. At the site where I shot it, there were three drops of blood. If I hadn't seen that, I would have thought I had missed. Fortunately for me, there was about 4" of fresh snow. I tracked that buck for about 5 hours before I found and killed him. I am certain beyond any doubt that he would have survived the initial wound, as it didn't even fully penetrate the chest cavity. That little pill looses gas fast.

I really don't take the .17 after big game on a regular basis. I bought it for fur and "varmints". But I loaned it to a fella once that shot three caribou with it and he told me that they dropped as if pole-axed. (Of course they were all shot in the neck.) SO, I took it on a deer hunt as a second rifle. As it turned out, it was a good thing I did. One of the nimrods in the camp broke the 'scope on the wildcat 7mmx300 Weatherby (a long time before the current 7mmSTW, but ballistically identical)I had brought as my primary weapon. I was left with only the .17 to "defend myself". I shot 5 black-tails on that trip, and other than the one mentioned above, all died in their tracks.

My daughter's caribou, (two of them now), were shot with the .17 because (1)she's kinda small in stature, and it is a rifle she could handle both in size (I made a special stock for her) and in recoil, (2)I knew the .17 was "up to the task", (3)she's an excellent shot, and can put the bullet where she wants it to go, and finally (4) I was backing her up with my .338.

There's something "magic" about that 4000fps MV. Becauseof my opinion about that, I have been shooting sabots (.30cal with .22 cal cavities). AS of yet, I haven't had the opportunity to test them on game. But I have finally developed some duplex loads that are both fast and accurate. (In my case, no small feat with sabots.)

I'll check the case capacity on my .17 rem and let you know what it is. I'm also in the process of getting a Oehler Ballistic Lab with pressure sensors, and when I have some new .17 info I'll post it.

Paul

Paul:
Do you happen to be the same Paul the late Finn Aagaard mentioned from time to time? I really enjoyed his writing.
Seriuosly, H414 is a ball powder and you can get alot of it in the 17Rem. case. I shoot Imr 4320 in one .17 and Imr4895 in the other. Both are balkyer powders then H414 and I have no trouble getting 23.5grs of 4895--25gr. bullet, and 25grs. of 4320 with a 20VMax. Anyway the 23.5grs.-4859 with a 25gr Rem or Hornady turns up just over 3900fps in the Sako and 3860fps in the Rem. Both 24in. barrels. My point is both those powder are faster burning then H414 and I am using atleast 3grs more powder. My point is maybe you are mistaking on the powder charge or the powder you are using. Don't want to make a big deal out of this, just can't figure it out. Pete

Idaho Pete,

I was just about to mount up my self-righteous high horse, when I decided to "check my notes". (Caution is the result of a life-time of learning to like crow meat. ) Got out my trusty reloading log; what to my surprise (and embarrassment ), do I find, but the fact that it is 25.0 grains of H414. NOT 21.0. I can't imagine how many people I have given that 21 grain figure to. Thanks for "holdin' my feet to the fire" on something that didn't fit with your personal experience.

Shows how long it's been since I loaded up any .17 ammo.

Paul