I have a Rem 700 SPS .243.
I have been shooting the blue box 80gr sp from federal.
The accuracy has been decent, but i am concerned that the bullet is too light for the 1-9 1/8 twist 24" barrel that the Rem SPS comes with.
How did Rem come up with such a odd-ball twist anyway?
They should have used a 1-10 twist, I think.
Anyhow, the 80gr sp bullet is a speer hot cor, which is supposed to be a real good deer bullet. That's good, because that is what I want to use it for.
I have shot 7 shots thru the chrono and got a 3350fps avg--just what the box says it does.
That's why I like this bullet weight out of my .243, it's a little more flatter shooting.
I guess what i'm getting at is:
can I use this light bullet in that twist or do I need to re-barrel it with a 1-12 twist to get the best deer killing performance from it? meaning, will the bullet mushroom the same in a 1-12 twist as it would in a 1-9 1/8 twist?

That round will work fine on deer with either twist. I wouldn't try for hard angling shots or slam that 80 grain Speer into the big part of the shoulder bone but generally it is well liked as a dual purpose bullet. So however are both pointed soft points from Winchester and Remington. I reload generally and at present will soon test the 95 grain Ballistic Tips on a couple of deer.

Most 80 Gr or lighter .243 bullets are made for varmint shooting , 85 Gr and heaver bullets are made for big game shooting.

Actually the early designed 80 grain bullets like the Speer Hotcor and the original PSP's from the big two were and are not the dramatic expanders like the present generation of thin jacketed or plastic tipped varmint bullets. They perform very well on deer sized game and if you stay away from the shoulder at close ranges you won't get much meat damage. My last deer that I killed with a 6MM I used the 80 grain Remington PSP and it did a credible job on a spine hit behind the shoulder blade about even with the bottom of said scapula. It blew bone ito the chest cavity, shattered 5 inches of spine and either exited or threw bone fragments out the other side on an 80 yard shot. Deer dropped and I must admit that I lost some backstrap but I did hit her there so that was my fault.

l used to use Fed' classic loads in 80grn Speer Hot Core, and found them more than acceptable on Roe deer. Meat dammage was as said minimal if kept off the shoulder, and shot as flat as a lasser for fox's out to 250yrds (1.25inch high @100yrds)

quote:

but i am concerned that the bullet is too light for the 1-9 1/8 twist 24" barrel that the Rem SPS comes with.
How did Rem come up with such a odd-ball twist anyway?
They should have used a 1-10 twist, I think.
Anyhow, the 80gr sp bullet is a speer hot cor, which

Generally speaking, too fast a twist is okay; too slow a twist is not. You can't overstabilize a bullet, but one can be not stabilized. However, a twist can be too fast if you are using a very frangible bullet---e.g., a Hornet bullet in a .22-250. Actually, a better example would be shooting a Hornet bullet in a fast twist .223 since the twist rate has more effect than velocity on the spin rate of hte bullet.

Twist rate is not something that most of us need to be too concerned about unless the bullet is unusual for caliber. In your case, most factory twists (inc. a 9 1/8") won't stabilize 105+ grain target bullets like Amaxs or Matchkings. Otherwise, don't worry about it.

LWD

The 87 Grain Hornady has been recommended for deer but I would never use one for deer after shooting a crow with it. The crow was about 150 yards away in pecan tree in a stiff breeze. Most of the crow just flew away in the breeze including one wing that went about 40 yards like a boomerang.

Birds generally fly apart when hit with high velocity bullets even if there is little expansion. Imagine that destruction inside a deer chest cavity.

quote:

The 87 Grain Hornady has been recommended for deer but I would never use one for deer after shooting a crow with it.

I agree. Furthermore, I would never shoot a deer or any other game animal with the same bullet that I had shot a crow with. Big game animals deserve the respect of shooting them only with brand new, unused bullets.

hey guys, just an update,
well the more i shoot the fed blue box 80gr sp, the more i don't like it's accuarcy--maybe my rifle just doesn't like it.
i will try some fed premium 85gr gamekings hps and see if that makes a difference... i sure hope so.

Steven g--get some 100 grain bullets for the .243 and they dont have to be a premium bullet---the cheaper Winchester bulk packed work great. Put them in the right spot and you are good to go. Back in 1955 when Win came out with .243 and Rem the .244,the Rem wouldnt stabilize heavier bullets so the .243 caught on. The .244 was rebarreled to stabilize the 100 grainers in 1962 and named changed to 6mm Rem---had they done that in 1955,who knows if the .243 would have caught on? To me the 100 grain is the bullet in .243. Certainly lighter ones will do fine if put in the right spot.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

The 87 Grain Hornady has been recommended for deer but I would never use one for deer after shooting a crow with it.

I agree. Furthermore, I would never shoot a deer or any other game animal with the same bullet that I had shot a crow with. Big game animals deserve the respect of shooting them only with brand new, unused bullets.

And twofers?

Both of my daughters shoot the .243, between them they've taken probly 30 head deer, and antelope. Go with the 95 or 100 partion well worth the extra $.10 a bullet. If you can tell difference in recoil between 80 and 100 gr in .243, you must have a real good scale there.
As soon a you get out there a ways a heavier bullet will catch or pass that fast light one anyways. I have found that rem and win make good 100 gr sp and use the for target and pratice and then spend extra $ for hunting.

You need to shoot a few hundred rounds a month just to stay in pratice any way. I'll usually load down to youth loads from hodgdon site, sweet light kicking and accurate.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

The 87 Grain Hornady has been recommended for deer but I would never use one for deer after shooting a crow with it.

I agree. Furthermore, I would never shoot a deer or any other game animal with the same bullet that I had shot a crow with. Big game animals deserve the respect of shooting them only with brand new, unused bullets.

Gnk gnk gnk! Now, how does a fella mop a snort of Merlot out of the keyboard?

all,
thanks for the replies and humor.

i could not get the fed 80gr sp factory round to shoot in my rifle, so i tried the fed prem. 85gr bthp, that was a dog as well.

what to do...i went to a privately owned sporting good store and spoke with some one knowlegable about the problem.
the man said before i run to get that sps rebarreled to try the win 80gr psp. we stood up the fed 80gr and the win 80gr on the counter. it was clear to see that the win 80gr bullet was seated out further from the case. he said try that because it would be a little closer to the rifling and may help my accuracy.
so i go to the range and whamo--first 3 shots touching at 100 yards. the next 2 groups of 3 shots did not touch, but fit easily in a 1" square. much better me thinks.
now for those of you that say use 100gr and use partitons, i might, but i want a flat shooting round right up to 200 yards--i get that with a 80gr bullet. who knows i may reload the 80gr hot cor in the near future and just seat the bullet out farther.

hello all,
i just wanted to thank everyone that wanted me to use a 100gr bullet.

being opened minded to suggestion, i went out and bought the very affordable winchester super-x 100gr power points at $15 a box out the door from wal-mart (for now, before the prices go up!!

at the range, i shot 4 shots into a 1 1/2 inch group at 100 yards, so that was good enough to kill a deer.
the same morning, i then shot five shots into a 3 inch circle at 220 yards, so i figured that was good enough. at that distance, they dropped about 4 inches.

so i go hunting for a cull buck at my cousin's ranch. i was hunting from a ground blind, so i knew i would have to aim low. a 4 year old, thick horned 7pt came out at 164 yards, he was slightly quartering toward me. i aimed low at the shoulder and squeezed...you know there are many things that you like to see in your lifetime, and one of my FAVORITE things to watch is a deer do the rodeo bucking back legs kick--cause ya know ya drilled em!!

so here is where it gets interesting--not much of a blood trail at all!! i saw some splatter where he stood but i did not see much else after that. i found him not 40 yards away in a straight line from where i shot him--a good old fashioned "death run", but no blood trail to track--dang that was with 100gr bullets, don't think i will go with 80gr after all. what had happened is the bullet went thru the shoulder exactly where i aimed and exited tight behind the opposite shoulder. i supposed he would have dropped if i would have hit both shoulders.

so, anyone have any experience with the 100gr power points, maybe they don't expand that well? the exit hole was not much bigger than the entrance hole--i had a hard time finding it btw. zero blood from the entrance hole.

i guess it comes with the territory for a .243, but i like the light recoil and the more affordable ammo--way more so than say the 25-06.

Steven g
Do yourself a favour and pick up a box of the Federal Fusion loads. They come in 95 grs and they are about as close to perfect as you can get for a non prmium bullet load. Very good accuracy and top game performance.
I think you will be really pleased with them.

quote:

so, anyone have any experience with the 100gr power points, maybe they don't expand that well? the exit hole was not much bigger than the entrance hole--i had a hard time finding it btw. zero blood from the entrance hole.

Which is why I'm not all that fond of the .243 for deer, especially large Mule Deer. before all you .243/6MM lovers fire up your flame throwers, it is just my personal choice. Shoot whatever you like. I can only base my opinion on what I saw while hunting a private ranch in Nevada. One deer bang/flop/DRT. very impressive. The next five deer shot, while killed were not so impressive. The rifle was a Kodiak mauser (mine) loaned out to friends for their first deer hunts. The rifle was very accurate with a Hornady spire point Interlock bullet over a stiff charge of H-4831. Several of the hunters I was guiding were junior hunters on their first deer hunts and the rest adults who wanted to try deer hunting. Deer were Mule deer most running from about 180 pounds to 200 pounds in weight.The deer were shot at ranges running from about 50 yards to maybe 150 yards. All were well hit in the chest cavity. The deer after being hit ran from about fifty yards to one deer covering almost 200 yards running into a fence, backing off and hitting the fence again. It did that one more time before expiring. Terrain was open enough that we could track visually where the deer ran and fell. After backtracking the deer, in no case was there a blood trail that we could find even when the bullet passed clean through the deer. I was lucky in one aspect as the kids and adults I was guiding paid attention and listened to my instructions as to when and where to shoot. My point being, if the terrain had not been as open as it was, I do believe that located the deer whould have proved difficult for the ones that ran more than about 50-60 yards and the one that ran and hit the fence may never have been found. FWIW, he was also the largest of the deer and had a pretty decent 4x4 rack; a proud trophy for a 13 year old kid.
Paul B.

I like the 95 grain Partition for deer and the 95 grain BT for coyotes. Since they shoot to the same approximate POA, there isn't any need to change your zero.

For a 243 that is a varmints only rifle, I like the 85 grain Sierra BTHP, but I won't use it for deer any longer since having a couple of failures to penetrate into the pleural cavity of average sized whitetails.

Jeff

First of all, congrats on persevering and getting the deer.

Secondly, 80 grains is not "too light" for that twist in a .243 WCF -- it's just about right. You can't, within reason, overstabilize a bullet, but you certainly can understabilize one.

Also, the small size of an exit does not necessarily mena the bullet did not expand. Large exits are often caused by secondary bone fragments and not the bullet itself. You'd need to examine the bullet's path to actually know what it did.

Lastly, I have a couple of comments from your posts:

steven g wrote:

quote:

we stood up the fed 80gr and the win 80gr on the counter. it was clear to see that the win 80gr bullet was seated out further from the case. he said try that because it would be a little closer to the rifling and may help my accuracy.

All factory ammo is limited by SAAMI specs, so there is no real difference in one bullet being seated farther out than another. The all adhere to a max OAL.
---
steven g also wrote: " i was hunting from a ground blind, so i knew i would have to aim low"

Hunting from the ground does not mean you need to hold low. Please elaborate on that statement.

260remguy,
i would not mind doing something like that in the future, esp because the BT's would be cheaper. so, i assume you mean the 95gr BT is made by Nosler as well? if so, isn't that a longer bullet than the partition, wouldn't that effect POI? when you reload for them, do you seat them at different depths to match the OAL? i would think that would effect the velocities and then POI, i am brand new to reloading, so i am missing something?

bobby,
i will glady explain what i mean by aiming low from a ground blind...
you are shooting from the same level as the deer, so in order to get a blood trail, which would be the ideal.. you want to hit the deer low in the vitals so you can get a fast blood trail. here's what i mean by that, you hit a deer high or mid-level in the lungs, he WILL die, but he will run off and not start to give you a blood trail until he's 50-100 yards away--you want to know why, because it's takes a little time for the lungs to fill up with blood to reach a mid level or high bullet hole on a deer, in very thick brush--where i hunt in deep south texas--this is not good at all.

now, if i was hunting from an elevated blind, i could have the luxury to aim in the middle of the deer and know that because of the angle, i would get a lower exit and then a decent blood trail from the get go, more-so than from a ground-level shot where the exit and entrance are at the same angle.
i hope that made sense to you and anyone else that reads it.

ok, on the OAL thing, i guess the win 80gr round was closer to max OAL, thus it was more accurate in my rifle, the 80gr psp had a slightly longer OAL than the 100gr power points, but i guess it was not enough to effect the accuracy like the shorter OAL federals did in my rifle.

steven g wrote: " in order to get a blood trail, which would be the ideal.. you want to hit the deer low in the vitals so you can get a fast blood trail. here's what i mean by that, you hit a deer high or mid-level in the lungs, he WILL die, but he will run off and not start to give you a blood trail until he's 50-100 yards away"
---

That is simply not true. The last deer I shot was taken with the bullet centering the mid-level of the lungs, and he dropped on the spot -- as do many others with that very same placement.

Also, as to you "holding low", I must point out that at 164 yards, the range you shot the deer, the difference in the bullet path through the chest of a deer would vary absolutely minimally no matter if you were on the ground or 8 feet up in a tree --all else being equal, that is.

Now if you took the deer at 10 or 20 yards, then yes, the difference in the bullet's path would come into play.

bobby,

first, thanks on the congrats, i don't like to give up that easily to find a deer.

i guess we have had different experiences with bullet angles then. because i once thought it did not matter as long as it's in the vitals--and if i was hunting in wide open country it would not matter to much then i guess. i will share some of my experiences with you.

once from a ground blind, i hit a buck high in the lungs at 210 yards with my 7MM MAG and he DROPPED and then got up and ran about 150 yards before dieing---very little if any blood to follow--because the blood did not fill up to the bullet hole until about 75 yards--deer can cover some ground ya know.
i am not making this blood filling up in the lungs to get a blood trail thing, it is well documented in bowhunters forums because they deal with it as well. i am a bowhunter as well, and i have hunted from a pop up bind and had the exit hole higher than the entrance hole, so i am forced to aim low. so i guess i use the same princple when rifle hunting, has worked for me very well since the 7mm mag incident.

to add, recently, i was in an elevated blind. a doe came out at broadside feeding 125 yards away, i aimed at the center of the neck and shot. when we walked up to her we saw the exit was 3 inches lower than the entrance hole--hmm,i bet shooting from an elevated position had something to do with that, plus i have seen it many times before as well on other deer people have shot, you can't beat gravity.

the only time i will say angle does not matter to much is if you hit both shoulders and the bullet could richochet(sp) and the exit could be anywhere then.

steven g wrote:

quote:

to add, recently, i was in an elevated blind. a doe came out at broadside feeding 125 yards away, i aimed at the center of the neck and shot. when we walked up to her we saw the exit was 3 inches lower than the entrance hole--hmm,i bet shooting from an elevated position had something to do with that

No, I am afraid it didn't. The thickness of a deer's neck is minimal, and if you had straight-line penetration, there is no way on Earth that the entrance and exit would vary by 3 inches on a 125-yard shot from an elevated blind.

I have no doubt that it did vary, just as you say. But it was because the bullet deflected -- perhaps upon impacting bone -- and deviated from its course as it lost velocity and shed energy.

I don't want to get into mathematical formulas here, but again, on something the size of a deer's neck, you will not get a 3-inch deviation simply due to shooting from an elevated blind at 125 yards.

You can try it yourself: Get a laser pointer and secure it to your elevated blind via a c-lamp, etc., pointing it downrange so that it would be perhaps chest-level at 125 yards.

Now walk down there. Mark the spot where it hits your shirt. Step back a foot and mark the spot again.

Assuming you are on level ground, you'll see that the difference is absolutely negligible and nearly impossible to detect.

But like I noted earlier, it's an entirely different situation for archers, where close-range shots are the norm.

They are only a couple 1/1000th of 1" difference in length. I load them both with the same die setting, the same powder/load, and get the same approximate down-range POA/POI performance.

Jeff

Exit holes in no way gaurantee a blood trail, especially on fat healthy deer. My favorite 243 bullet is the Nosler Ballistic Tip. nice exits and very quick kills.

Rickt300-

You are right: that 95 grain BT is a tough little bullet that penetrates extremely well. And, nice exits are the norm.

You are also right that a blood trail is never a guarantee. I shoot quite a few hogs each year, and the heavy hide, hair, caked mud and fat on them can result in a blood trail that's quite sparse. Even when handling & loading them, some will bleed precious little, even though the innards may be virtually liquified.

On the other hand, some will bleed like...well, for lack of a better description...a stuck pig.

A large boar I took in November right at dark made a few feet into a sea of grass before expiring. When I went to retrieve him, I approached the spot where he originally stood and noticed a large spray of blood (not to mention a few small pieces of lung tissue). Even the most inexperienced tracker could have followed that trail. Ditto for a sow I shot a couple of years ago. The sow made perhaps 20 yards but left an incredibly wide blood trail along the way after taking a broadside heart shot.

For the record, while the bullets were different brands, they both were standard cup-and-core 140 grain 6.5mms launched at moderate velocity.

I find high lung shots very rarely give any blood at all. Mid lung shots give a small amount but it's rarely over any distance as the lethality of the shot is very high indeed.
Low chest shots produce dramatic gouts of blood that can often be seen through the scope - too near the bottom for me and generaly the trail goes for quite a way as they seem to run longer.

I've found calibre to have very little effect on blood trails. Bullet placement however has had a massive effect.

I tend to move away from 243 at about 200lb+ weight.