Sad is the only way to describe it.

The trigger is 7 lbs with plenty travel.

I shot several groups with factory ammo, and nothing was better than 1 1/2"

Thank goodness the rifle I used was not mine, or it would gt a quick trip to the next gun show.

Usually when a new cartridge comes out you see all the glowing reports of great out of the box accuracy from people who just bought one. I have yet to see any of those grandiose quotes such as:

"It outshoots my 223, or 22.250 or 22 swift"

"It's the best out of the box rifle I have ever seen"
or
"It's the easiest rifle I ever got to shoot well"

etc.

I do see some people with the 204 saying that but none of the 223WSSM people that I've met are.

Strange, huh?

I am personally no big fan of the 223 wssm, but part of the thing about not hearing much is the fact that they are not selling.

On a guess I'd guess the 204 outsells them somewhere around 500 to 1.

MD

quote:

Originally posted by Terry Blauwkamp:
Sad is the only way to describe it.

The trigger is 7 lbs with plenty travel.

I shot several groups with factory ammo, and nothing was better than 1 1/2"

Thank goodness the rifle I used was not mine, or it would gt a quick trip to the next gun show.

First of all what model Win. M70 are you tlking about? My M70 Coyote trigger wasn't the best but no where near what you describe. I haven't shot any factory ammo but the first three sight in shots went into a groups that measured just under 1" and has only gotten better with load work. Lastly contrary to what some want to believe, the .223 WSSM is selling very well. The .25 WSSM got off to a slow start but is now selling so well there seems to be a waiting list in many areas of the country. It’s the new Velocity King of the factory .22 centerfires. Lawdog

I bought a new in the box mod 70 .25 wssm. for whiteail and other small game. On my first trip to the range I brought some win factory loads 100gr supreme. When I fired them the bolt was difficult to lift the handle but I continued to zero the scope and the shoot some groups. This gun shot worst than any gun I have ever fired. 3-4 inches at 100 yards was the best group. so I checked the scope cleaned the gun and tried again another day the results were tyhe same. I could not belive my results so I took the gun to my gunsmith and had him remount the scope and then took the gun to a local guy that makes realy good custom ammo and left it with him to work up a load,after a few days He called me and said to come pick up my rifle that he could not make it shoot. I called winchester and the service people treated me like I was a idoit and were no help.Just told me to send them the rifle.
I talked to my gunsmith he said that in his experince that they would send the gun back and say there was nothing wrong with it. I belive Him after my conservation.
I'm stuck with a gun that I can't feal good about selling so I guese I'll let Kevin Weaver rebarrel and square my action. around $600.
Has anyone else had thes problemes with winchester.

Ditto to what Dr B posted.

My son's Win Shadow in 223wssm is, in a word, horrible. Best 'group' we could get was 2", and then only with 45gr IMR 4350 and a 50gr Nosler BT or 52gr Sierra HPBTM. All other powder/bullet combos turned into patterns, one shot 6" left, 2nd shot 5"high and 3"right, 3rd shot off paper. Most frustrating rifle I have ever shot!
Was sent to factory, they said nothing wrong and sent it back.
Cases were trimmed and annealed.

I have 2 Winchester 70s in 25 WSSM, a Super Shadow and a stainless Ultimate Shadow. Both required some trigger adjustment and I opened the barrel channel to insure that the barrels float, but other than that no problems. The 85 grain and 115 grain SBT ammo shot great groups from the start. No feeding problems either, but these rifles shoot so well that there shouldn't be a reason to take a 2nd shot unless it is done to take a 2nd deer. The $429 Super Shadow is among the most accurate out-of-the-box rifles that I have ever owned and the 2 different factory loads were great. Now if Leupold would only make a set of QR bases, I'd be even happier. Dr. B, you should email me and tell me what you want out of the dog of your's maybe it would hunt for me.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Lawdog_Gary:

quote:

Originally posted by Terry Blauwkamp:
Sad is the only way to describe it.

The trigger is 7 lbs with plenty travel.

I shot several groups with factory ammo, and nothing was better than 1 1/2"

Thank goodness the rifle I used was not mine, or it would gt a quick trip to the next gun show.

First of all what model Win. M70 are you tlking about? My M70 Coyote trigger wasn't the best but no where near what you describe. I haven't shot any factory ammo but the first three sight in shots went into a groups that measured just under 1" and has only gotten better with load work. Lastly contrary to what some want to believe, the .223 WSSM is selling very well. The .25 WSSM got off to a slow start but is now selling so well there seems to be a waiting list in many areas of the country. It’s the new Velocity King of the factory .22 centerfires. Lawdog

It was Super Shadow.

quote:

Originally posted by Terry Blauwkamp:

quote:

Originally posted by Lawdog_Gary:

quote:

Originally posted by Terry Blauwkamp:
Sad is the only way to describe it.

The trigger is 7 lbs with plenty travel.

I shot several groups with factory ammo, and nothing was better than 1 1/2"

Thank goodness the rifle I used was not mine, or it would gt a quick trip to the next gun show.

First of all what model Win. M70 are you tlking about? My M70 Coyote trigger wasn't the best but no where near what you describe. I haven't shot any factory ammo but the first three sight in shots went into a groups that measured just under 1" and has only gotten better with load work. Lastly contrary to what some want to believe, the .223 WSSM is selling very well. The .25 WSSM got off to a slow start but is now selling so well there seems to be a waiting list in many areas of the country. It’s the new Velocity King of the factory .22 centerfires. Lawdog

It was Super Shadow.

It figures. I really haven't heard a whole lot of good about the Shadow. Next time try a M70 Coyote. I own two and my daughter in-law has in in .25 WSSM and all of them shoot great. Don't knock a good cartridge(s) just because of one lousy rifle. Lawdog

quote:

On a guess I'd guess the 204 outsells them somewhere around 500 to 1.

If Winchester would give up on the loser WSSM s and start chambering for the .204 , they too could get in on the harvest .

I'd love to add to my .204 battery with a one in a M-70 Coyote........

"Pitiful" best describes the last 2 Winchester 70s I have handled. The latest was a .270 WSM that a local resident won in a drawing. Out of the box, it would do no better than 4 to 5" groups at 100 yards. The trigger was over 7 lbs.

Chatter marks in the chamber were so bad that they were visible to the naked eye using only a penlight. A conventional borescope revealed a much more detailed problem.

A good bit of effort was needed to transform it into an acceptable shooter -- and, in my opinion, it's still just barely "acceptable."

In the lower end of the firearms price range, the best of the lot in terms of accuracy, triggers, etc. in an out-of-the-box rifles are the Savages and Howas. If you want a Remmy, get an older one. They, too, have been producing sub-par products.

And for just a bit more $$$ than the Savage or Howas, the CZs and Tikkas are nice, too.

I got one of those 270WSM with the rough but square machining and barrel fouls terribly. This was and is the worst looking barrel on a new rifle I've ever seen through a borescope. With all that said it shoots wonderfully. When I got it I lightened the trigger and shot 3 boxes of win 150 gr power point factory loads through so I would have brass and they shot terribly, but they also had up to .010" runout and seating depths varied by .020". My first handloads tightned right up. I look in the barrel with the borescope and all you can see is copper and this is the way it shoots best. I spent hours cleaning it to bare steel many times and fired it and examined it with the borescope after each shot and after 5 shots it was copperplated as bad as after 80 rounds without cleaning and didn't group until it was fouled this way, I have quit cleaning this rifle all together and will see how many rounds it will go until it quits grouping. Most 5 shot groups are 1" many much smaller, there have been 260 rounds fired since I cleaned it last. Just under 1000 rounds through it all together.

Terry, sorry about your experience with the Model 70, but it is much like mine.

I bought a Wincheser Super Shadow Super Short chambered in 223 WSSM and it was a TOTAL dissapointment.

The gun was finished well, fed those short little shells with no problem, but shot like crap!! I don't think that thing would shoot minute of pickup, let alone minute of angle!!

I tried all sorts of stuff. Like the one you tested, the trigger was over 7 pounds. I spent the bucks and put a Jewell trigger in it.

I tried three different scopes on it. I changed the mounts and bases once as well.

I tried factory ammo, reloads, bullets ranging from 40 to 60 grains. Very inconsistant grouping, getting 1.5 inch groups one day and 6 inch groups with the same load next time out.

The last time I fired it I was getting groups of about 1.5 inches for three shots with the factory 55 grain loads. I decided that was pretty good so I cleaned it before I tried to finalize my sight in. I never could hit the target frame again after that!! Some shots hit the dirt 20 feet in front of the target.

I sold it to a guy who said "I can make it shoot". Well, he could not and he sent it back to Winchester. They sent him a complete new rifle. He kept that one about 2 weeks and sent it back. They sent him yet another new rifle and it would not hit shit either. He put a custom barrel on it and made it a 243 WSSM and it now shoots great!

I would not have another Winchester rifle chambered for a super short mag for a gift!

On the flip side of the coin my friend's new Model 70 chambered for the 25 WSSM shoots great.

Winchester really screwed up on this one!!!

R F

Savage is marketing a little number they call the "Stevens 200". A plain jane, synthetic stocked version of their old "111"s. But it is free floated and pillar bedded! Not to mention that it has a barrel that didn't have hammers beating the dog doodoo out of it(hammer forging vs. pulled button.....Savage has never had the money enough to buy a hammer f...up machine!!) The triggers are "classic" Savage.....won't register on a trigger pull guage(Accutriggers are not on this one!!) but since they are the old 111's you can adjust them down a bit(I got one down to a "safe" 54oz!!!) $259.00-$299.00 from a bunch of places!! After barrel break-in(same as I'd do on a Shilen or Hart or Douglas or whoevers) first handload using 75 grain VMAXS ahead of 50.0 grains of VARGET in a 25-06, measuring .147"......must be something done right! Oh yea, the 2 groups before that were REMINGTON standard factory 100 grain CoreLokts..... .707 and .747!!! This dog will hunt!!! First 2 groundhogs it saw(scope is a NIKON BUCKMASTER 4.5-14 SF) at 221 and 227 yards did the "DRT" number!!.....dead right there! Can't wait to make a "crop eater" do the same using a 117 SIERRA or a HORNADY 120HP!! Maybe We'll get lucky and have a "MuiGrande" or a "Bull of the Woods" show up!!! If not, then just do the "varmint hunting thing" and kill "2 a day for 30 days"!! It's easier to kill 300 whitetails than 100 groundhogs anymore!!! They're everywhere!! A friend fromW.VA told me yesterday they'd found a few cases of "CWD" in WVa!!! He said he thought they should have tied a rope to the deer and drug his ass all over the state!!!......can't argue with tht logic!!! Next big thing in the "trophy" hunting deal will be "Red Tailed Hawks"! Anything over 53" will make the book!!! But hey'll probaby get hit with WNV(West Nile Virus) or AV(Avian Flu) before they get to be a real trophy class beast!! GHD

A few months ago, I tested the Super Shadow in .223 WSSM for a magazine. At first, the rifle shot horribly. I then took it apart and found the receiver litterally floating in oil. I dried it up and adjusted the stock screws (being a borrowed rifle, I left the factory sealed trigger alone). From then on, it shot .7 MOA 3-shot groups.

I purchased a 223Wssm m70 Shadow as a rough use rifle that I can use for coyote calling and hiking around doing coyote control work. After relieving some tupperware from the barrel channel, and minimal load devt, I am happy with the rig and consider it a definite step up from a 22-250.

bR

I read all of this, and I am just happy as a clam with all of the 223, 22/250s, 243s I own for varmint hunting... and the other " been around" a long time calibers I own...

I really consider the 260 Remington as the only " new" cartridge that I consider worth a darn that has been introduced in the last 5 to 10 yrs...

Sad to say, but I see this Short Mag crap as the death knell for the gun industry... they have sold about all the 30/06s and 270s they are going to sell....when they have to develop new solutions to problems that don't exist to move product... the industry ,( regardless of what industry it is) is on its death bed....

as a shooter, that bothers me...

and all of this anti gun crowd aren't helping us either...

sad to say... but it seems like the truth to me...

seafire