I have a pre-64 Model 70 .243 that will shoot a 5/8" group at 50 yards, but only a 3"-4" group at 100 yards. The scope & mounts are tight and fine. What's my problem ???

Bullet?



Wind?



Scope - is the parallax goofy? If it's a variable power scope, do you use a different magnification at 50 yds than you use at 100 yds?



The twist rate should be fine for even 105 gr bullets. Is the rifling still good?



Did this happen just once or multiple days with different loads?

Two days in a row with 95 gr. and 100 gr. bullets.

I would look at bullet weight first.

My brother, a friend and myself all bought .243 BARs back in the early 80's. I had never bought anything other than Winchester ammo so that is what we got. We bought 80 gr PSP and 100 gr PSP. The 80s shot like they were on rails and the 100s bounced all over the place. We shot 80s for years, killing lots of deer.

About 10 years later, my friend bought some new Federal Premium 100 gr Boattails (he had forgotten about the previous 100 gr bullets) and he became convinced that his barrel was shot out and ended up selling the gun (before we could remind him). My brother and I were still shooting the 80s with very good accuracy and results.

Three years ago, I had a bullet failure on a broadside 100yd shot. I knocked the deer down, he did a 360 degree spin and then ran off to my amazement. Never even found a drop of blood. I switched to the 95 gr Winchester Supreme (BST). The first shot is good, the second shot is fair but the thrid shot in a group is kinda depressing. The next year I killed my best buck ever (151 5/8) with the 95 BST, but I was still concerned about accuracy. This past fall I bought a box of 95 gr Hornady SSTs and the accuracy is back. Not a tack driver but less than 2" MOA.

Maybe a change of ammo brand or bullet weight will help.
(I still like the accuracy of those 80 grain bullets ).

Frank-

Are your bullet holes at 100 yards good & round? Or is there any sign of instability/keyholing?

Frank,

Do you have a standard grade or the Featherweight?

What were the 95 and 100 gr bullets. Do the 100 yd targets show signs that the bullets are tipping?

What does the bore and in particular the throat look like?

Since it's varmint season now I suggest you get some shorter varmint weight bullets and test the rifle with them.

Shiming an action or barrel might work but if the tang screw is tightened it will bend the action. I would try the shim with just the front action screw tight.

There are a myriad of things that might be wrong. Perhaps one could start a thread and we could all add to it. I would guess that there are over twenty common reasons for inaccuracy.

Frank, It sounds like bullet instability as others have suggested. Try shooting a group at 200 yds. Roy Dunlap, in his book "Gunsmithing", told of a 30-06 match rifle he built that shot lousy groups at 100 yds. but shot fine at 200 yds. or better. It took that long for the bullets to "go to sleep". Or something is damaging the bullets as they pass through the barrel which is causing the instability.

I have a pre-64 M70 30-06 that would shoot 1" five shot groups with Federal or Remington factory ammo in its heyday. It would approach half inch groups with handloads. Nothing wrong with pre-64's! I did have to correct a bedding problem, also reworked the trigger, removed the forend screw and free floated the barrel. And thoroughly clean the barrel as I don't think it had been cleaned in the thirty years before I bought it.

The rifle is a Featherweight .243 made in 1957. It's condition is 99% "as new". The bore of the barrel is EXTREMELY clean; it looks as bright as a new CZ barrel. The recoil lug on the stock has been glass bedded and the wood/metal fit is as good as any new production rifle. That's about all I can tell you about the gun. When I load my shells, I weigh each charge carefully. The brands of bullets loaded are Hornady & Sierra. Thanks for any additional help.

Frank Beller: I hope we can get this pre-64 Model 70 in 243 Winchester to shooting better. Contrary to what anyone in this thread might intimate to you the vast majortiy of pre-64 Model 70's were and are above average accuracy wise! When compared to ANY commercially produced Rifle of its time. To allude otherwise is nonsensical and flies in the face of reality.

I am a student of the pre-64 Model 70's. I also use them to Hunt both Big Game and Varmints with. In addition I have bought and sold them for 39 years now. I am also a collector of these fine and safe arms and have more than 30 in my collection now. Including 243's in Featherweight, Gopher Special, Standard Weight, Varmint and Target Models!

I have two pre-64 Model 70's in 243 Winchester that I still actively shoot to this day. They are both splendidly accurate, reliable and safe Rifles! All these Model Rifles were made with the utmost care and top quality components - steel and wood alike! Do not let anyone tell you otherwise. Especially those Rifles made in the 1950's like yours!

Not only was your Rifle from that era the strongest action commercially available then it was (again I will repeat myself because it is so important!) by far the most reliable and safest! Nothing on the market then even came close. Also I have spent many hundreds of days at the range with many pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters! If not thousands of days!

Having said those things and corrected some ridiculous postings along these lines - lets get to work on your Rifle!

The fact that your Rifle is in such great condition I am surmising that the reason it was glass bedded was because a previous owner also had accuracy problems! I would take the Rifle to a competent Riflesmith and while it is there I would have him adjust the splendid Model 70 trigger (by using the built in adjustment system!) down to about 2 1/2 pounds if it is not there already. Then have the bedding job examined and if need be have it replaced/repaired.

Yes a myriad of problems can cause poor accuracy in any Model Rifle. Also have the Riflesmith inspect the crown of your barrel under magnification. Even a small burr or nick in this area can cause real trouble.

I would be surprised if those high quality bullets out of your Rifle are making 5/8" groups at 50 yards and then not capable of the corresponding 1 1/4" groups at 100 yards! This puzzles me and I hope you are shooting very slowly and paying extreme attention to wind flags and barrel heat while you are shooting.

One bullet that does very well in my shooting Model 70 243's is the Sierra 85 gr. HP/BT. I use these for Varminting and have other suggestions if you want a Hunting bullet.

Wind flags.

Barrel crown.

Quality bullets.

Shoot slowly.

I hope that we can figure this situation out and like I say if you need a Big Game Hunting load I will get into my shooting log and retrieve them for you.

I will say this again - your Rifle is shooting pretty well at 50 yards and it should be shooting 1 1/4" groups at 100! I am puzzling over this transition to 3 - 4" groups at 100 yards!

And I would be surprised if your Rifle does not eventually shoot groups of 1" at 100 yards with enough scope power and

tuned handloads.

Another thought to stabilizing your bullets would be the use of a bullet seating depth tool. Lets get those bullets seated out close to the leades of the Rifling. That usually helps any Rifle. I use the Sinclair bullet seating depth tool ($23.00 from Sinclairs) but other folks have other systems.

Good luck with that Classic Rifle!

Hold into the wind

VarmintGuys

PS: If you had a nickel for every time a Model 70 Rifle won a shooting match from the late 1930's through the 1980's you could buy yourself a nice new diesel pickup truck and a house with a three car garage to park it in!

They are still used in competitions today and for very good reason!

I concur with the above post on Pre-64 mod. 70s, I have used them for 36 yrs. in the very tough conditions of B.C. and have actually carried one of thhese every day while working solo in Grizzly country, far from any possible assistance in the event of an incident. I had and have many other fine, classic rifles which I could have used, but, chose the old 70 because it worked so well in the worst conditions.

I have a rifle exactly like yours, it is so accurate with Nosler Bts. and Pts. that I seldom shoot it because it is boring; sub half-minute groups are it's regular performance, with a 3x9 scope. I have had many old 70s that will do this well after decades of honest use and the barrels last for thousands of rounds.

Nothing is perfect, the old '70 was exceeded in strength by some other actions of it's era; the Mannlichher-Schoenauer has greater lug shear area, the Weatherby Mark V and the various Schultz and Larsens were considerable stronger. BUT, no ordinary rifle was anywhere close to as good as the old '70 and most of them still aren't.

People who want to play with poorly designed, cheaply made, mass-produced "Mattel" rifles simply do not know whereof they speak; I have NEVER experienced a mechanical glitch with an old '70 and many of mine have had long, hard use under extreme conditions. I think that your problem is due to the glassbedding or to scope parallax.

Totally concur with Varmintguy and Kutenaymtn and don't give much credence to the "AR Village Idiot" regarding the inaccuracy of the pre-64s. I currently own quite a few pre-64s and the only one that ever gave me trouble had been incorrectly bedded. I bet that's where your problem lies. We'd all be interested in your final outcome. jorge

Hey Frank, I was thinking about your abysmal accuracy disaster last night and had a couple more tips for you to try with the (rag) Pre-64 M70. But as I got ready to post them, I noticed a couple of the "Holy Grail" experts and a Non-Hacker somehow got upset with me offering you some insight into potential problems to check.

Since I'm such an amiable fellow, I went back and edited out whatever must have had everyone so upset. And, even though I do know a whole lot about the (rag) Pre-64 M70s from lots of "first-hand experience", I'll be glad to keep it to myself and let them help you.

Best of luck (with their advice)!

cool core: If the pre-64 Winchester Model 70 is such a piece of crap why do you have so much experience with it?
Are you a really slow learner?
Are you so full of shit your brain is muddled?
Do you enjoy making yourself miserable by using "substandard" (in your opinion!) firearms?
Do you have so much time and money on your hands that you enjoy shooting below par Rifles as well as the Rifles that in your opinion are superior?
Maybe you do this as some bizarre act of contrition?
Or maybe you do it to constantly keep proving that indeed some Rifles are better (in your opinion!) than others?
In my opinion you are simply vindictive, contrary and full of shit!
You would not know a quality Rifle from a fiberglass stocked Savage!
There for sure is one person you have insulted with your specious rhetoric - and that person is yourself! You have proven by your ridiculous and ludicrous claims how stupid you are! Sorry man there is simply no other way to put it! You are stupid!
Please reconsider and recant your bloviations regarding the fine old Winchester Model 70!
Either that or stand by for additional correction and humiliation.
I personally am at the point in life where I no longer suffer fools (like you!) silently! Suffering fools (like yourself) does no good what so ever. In fact it may cause more foolishness to be tolerated! So be prepared - you make foolish statements and you WILL be corrected!
You make these aggregious, bizarre and irrational statements like you have in this thread and I for one will surely jump all over you! And I will take great glee in doing so! You have been warned several times now. Fair enough!
I will repeat (and apparently your learning curve requires lots of repetition!) any brand or model Rifle can have accuracy that needs improving!
I will assist in any way I can to help the 243's owner.
And I suggest you do the same!
Keeping your ideas to yourself regarding helping this accuracy problem does no good what so ever. Espouse them!
But to make such outlandish, unrealistic and unproven allegations against such a wonderful Rifle as the Model 70, well wait and see what happens! I promise, you keep that up and I will keep contradicting you with fact!
But then again if you were to relay any tips for accurizing the Rifle in question they would be tempered with the perception clouding, ridiculous, statements you have posted here already!
Lets get this Rifle shooting for the fellow poster.
If you do not like the Model 70 (and apparently you never have) I still am in puzzlement why you have so much experience with them?
Just as a point of correction as to your ludicrous statement regarding "the termite wood" used in the old Model 70's let me smother your tripe like comment. You of course are absolutely incorrect in this regard! I will refer anyone interested in factual refutation of your amazingly ignorant statement to these two fine reference books: "The Winchester Model 70 - 1937 to 1964" by Dean H. Whitaker 1978 - Taylor Publishing and "The Riflemans Rifle" by Roger C. Rule 1982 - Alliance Books. They go into great detail regarding the high quality stocks used on these Rifles and their manufacture.
Now for my personal refutations regarding your slander of the Winchester stocks. During the hay days of the Model 70's I had occassion to observe many stocks on commercially produced Rifles of that era fail! And some failed miserably. Including my personally witnessing two Sako Varmint Rifles where the wood was so soft the front sling swivel screws failed to have enough of a hold in the soft wood! And the resulting pulled out screws caused crashes of the Rifles to the ground. In one case the Rifle landed in the lava rock of central Idaho doing significant damage to Rifle and scope! Then there were the stocks on a couple of years worth of Browning Safari Rifles that were cured with salt! Instead of the patient and proper time curing method of the pre-64 Model 70's! These salt cured stocks ruined many a Rifle.
I could go on and on with stories of stocks warping in lesser and greater costing Rifles than the old Model 70's but I won't at this time. Warping stocks and incorrectly cured stock blanks have caused so many accuracy problems for so many Rifle owners that even a novice like yourself should be aware of some of these situations! The Model 70 stocks were cured and sealed properly and warping was seldom a problem for properly cared for Model 70's!
Not only that many, many Rifle makers and stock makers have copied the designs of all of the Models of Model 70 stocks. Indeed to this day the McMillan Stock company is making copies exactly the same as the design of the Winchester Marksman stock that came on the Model 70's in 1937! Thats nearly 70 years of success in that style alone! Try and refute or insult that fact cold bore!
Yes, just come up with some more blather and attempt to defame a fine, strong, safe and accurate Rifle like the pre-64 Model 70 and I will slam your derogatory and baseless tripe with fact! Please I am begging you continue the idiocy! I am on the edge of my seat waiting to smother your delusions with reality!
Long live the Model 70!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Please note, that I did not take exception to the AR Village Idiot's diagnosis of the problem but of his dogmatic premise that Pre-64s are inanely inaccurate. Apparently, not only does he put out dis information, but apparently he has a problem with reading comprehension. jorge

Hot Core, I have not made any reference to you on this thread and I do not see why you choose to attempt to vilify me; this is not the first time you have claimed to possess much greater outdoor expertise than I have and you do so in a rather snotty tone. Frankly, I think that you are demonstrating precisely those negative personal qualities that some of the other posters attribute to you; it seems to be a habitual form of behaviour with you.

I do not pretend to be the ultimate authority on ANY rifle, I simply base my opinions on what I have actually done for the past four decades. You may well know far more than I do about Mod. 70s, other rifles and firearms in general, however, your comments demonstrate that your actual wilderness experience and use of a big bore rifle as a working tool are non-existent.

I think that this enormous bag of game and outstanding knowledge of rifles that you claim to have is largely restricted to shooting semi-tame, baited Whitetail Deer on some suburban plantation; in short, you are a legend in your own mind and a royal pain in the ass to the genuine rifle enthusiasts on this thread. I suggest you grow up, or, at least try to.

BTW, I cannot diagnose what the problem may be with the rifle under discussion and neither can anyone else without actually seeing it; one would think an expert of your self-deluded caliber would be able to grasp that simple fact. I do not think, for an instant, that you are stupid and have never said this; you deliberately act like an asshole whenever this topic comes up and I think that most of us are bloody tired of it. Now, either contribute to the discussion like a gentleman or shut the fuck up!

fuming core: I am waiting for you to answer my question!
Why do you possess so much experience, knowledge and shooting time with a Rifle you despise?
Please answer that question.
I have no bone to pick with you or any organization you belong to. I am glad your friend won the Rifle. I wish you would have won one also!
When you state ridiculous and unsubstantiated things I will call you on them! Especially you, from now on!
You are trying to disparage one of the finest factory Rifles ever made and not doing a very convincing job at that! Please cease you are making yourself look a fool! Not just stupid!
No, I do not think you are at all familiar with this fine, strong, safe and accurate (not to forget it being absolutley beautiful!) Rifle!
I gave the inquirer some tips that I think may pertain to the Rifle that shoots 5/8" groups at 50 yards and yet somehow shoots 3" to 4" groups at 100 yards. That is an uncommon problem! It may have to do with other factors than the inherent qualities of the Rifle (i.e.: a damaged crown, bullet damage or tilting in the chamber neck area etc!).
Come on cold center burp up some tips for the poster and try and redeem your damaged rep!
Yes, I have noticed your attitude in the past and so have others. But your pissy contrary personality is besides the point of this thread. Add something helpful or go be pissy and contrary to someone you may have a chance at buffaloing!
Long live the Riflemans Rifle! The strong, safe, reliable and accurate pre-64 Winchester Model 70!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
PS: I wonder why so many custom Riflemakers eagerly seek out pre-64 Winchester Model 70 actions to build expensive custom Rifles on? Hmmm.... maybe they know something that you cold cone refuse to acknowledge? I do know the custom Rifles I have built on Pre-64 Model 70 actions not only look great but perform wonderfully also!

I do not brag about anything, I don't have to. I also do not attack other people on internet forums for no reason as you quite frequently do; your latest exercise in infantile behaviour once again demonstrates the truth of my earlier comments as well as those of the others here who find your posts ludicrous.

I did not take offense at your initial post although your pathetic attempt to say I did by using selected quotes from my post out of context further demonstrates both your ignorance and your immaturity. Do you think that your continual slagging of the Pre-64 Mod. 70 or your attempts to denigrate Jorge, VarmintGuy, me or other posters actually impresses anyone? For fuck sakes, grow up!

What does this mean?

Chuck

Hey Kut, I'll go through your last post and run a "Truth Test" just for a few grins.

Quote:

---

...I also do not attack other people on internet forums for no reason as you quite frequently do;

---

Granted, I do try my best to "return" as good as I get. For people that can't take it as good as they hand it out, that does present a SERIOUS problem for them.



I've no problem at all being able to "disagree" in a civil manner. But it does seem there are a lot of folks who love to talk trash, but they SURE don't want it returned. Surely you aren't one of those types????



In my original post of this thread, there was not a single word directed as "an attack toward anyone." You, VG and Non-Hacker dove in working me over for stating my opinion. Go back and look for yourself, it is there.



Just imagine "your" first posts as if I'd written that in response to one of your all's posts.



Any of you could have said you disagreed and start posting "Potential Problems" for Mr. Frank. As I look at your posts, I just don't see anything in them that leads me to believe you have any ideas at all on how to "help" Mr. Frank. Your focus seems to be an "attempt" to talk down-to me. Only problem is that is impossible based on your "actual knowledge" of the (rag) Pre-64 M70s. So you are doing just what you said you don't do, "I also do not attack other people on internet forums for no reason ..." Truth Test FAILURE #1.

Quote:

---

your latest exercise in infantile behaviour ...your posts ludicrous.

---

Truth Test FAILURE #2 and #3. Reread the first sentence in the first quote and then look at this last quote.



Sure looks like a couple of attacks to me. Or perhaps it would be more meaningful if I just said: Kut, I see "your latest exercise in infantile behaviour" and as usual "your post is ludicrous". I suppose that would be OK. Of course, I would never do such an infantile or ludicrous thing.

Quote:

---

...your pathetic attempt ...demonstrates both your ignorance and your immaturity.

---

Truth Test FAILURE #4 and #5. It sure doesn't look like you are doing real well on the Truth Test at all,

Quote:

---

...your attempts to denigrate ...

---

I believe that is Truth Test FAILURE #6.



---



Score for Kut's Truth Test using his own words: TRUTH 0 and FAIL 6. I would speculate it is always a good idea to think: A man is only as good as his word.



Surely you can't disagree with that?



---



So, let's total up the recommendations to help Mr. Frank from Kut in all his posts. (I'm reluctant to say "Holy Grail expert" because that is apparently "vilifying" and I certainly don't intend it in that way.)



1. Zero

2. Nada

3. Goose Egg

4. etc.



It appears Kut doesn't have a whole lot to offer as far as "Potential Problem Resolution Knowledge" for the (rag) Pre-64 M70s.



OK Kut, time for you to go into your Trash Talking Mode - as usual.

Hot Core, Every single post you make on this thread simply illustrates that Jorge's decription of you is spot-on; your inane and irrational remarks serve to demonstate, once again, that you have no interest in rifles or hunting and very little knowledge thereof.

Your major interest is attempting to bait me and other men whom you would not dare to confront in person. You remind me of the American Draftdodgers and deserters that flooded into my home region 35 yrs. ago; you have a big mouth, an empty mind and no guts.

Where is this brilliant advice and comprehensive knowledge that VarmintGuy challenged you to provide; if you know so much, why not enlighten us all with your remarkable erudition?

Frankly, I doubt that you even own a gun or hunt as I suspect your witless ravings are the result of "acid flashbacks" and you are probably a psychiatric outpatient and welfare recipient who has nothing to do except pester those whom he is jealous of. Again, grow up, take your meds and get a fucking life!

Yawn.

Among Hot Core's long list of faults is his inability to comprehend what folks write, sentence structure and rudimentary spelling. As I have stated (now for a third time)my only objection to his original post was that although I had no problems with his diagnosis, his obvious hatred for rifles he obviously can't afford (add envy to his shortcomings). Here's a bit of logic for you: IF Pre-64s are poorly made, inaccurate rifles you claim them to be, most of us would have stopped buying them a long time ago. Further, they would not be commanding the premium prices they do.

Hot Core, had you just given advice on how to fix a problem instead of putting down the gent's choice of rifles, we might actually get somewhere. And like I mentioned before, you need to learn how to use the "thesaurus" option in your computer and change your repetitive use of the language. Accordingly, your "AR Village Idiot" monicker rings true. jorge

Hot Core: Let me try again once more! Maybe I missed it in your backsliding posts above?
If you hate the Rifle so much and carry such disdain for them why do you have so much "experience" with them - and consider yourself an expert on them?
Also I will try again to get an answer as to why do so many top quality custom Riflesmiths eagerly and avidly seek out these now 40+ year old Winchester Model 70 platforms to build their VERY expensive wares on?
Is it because they are "rags"?
Or is it because they are such extremely strong, safe, reliable, beautiful and accurate actions?
Again you complain (and I really do not care if you complain or not!) that people are calling you on your B.S.!
Maybe if you were not so outrageously wrong AND bull headed in your contrariness these "call outs" would not occur?
Again, I will actively from this moment on as long as I am able, carefully peruse your postings for more tripe and bullshit and eagerly point out your mistakes, shortcomings and errors!
Your various personality traits whether offensive or pleasing will be obvious to anyone interested. Those are beside the point of your mistakes and misrepresentations. Any misrepresentation I become aware of you making from this moment forth WILL be confronted.
I, on somewhat rare occassions, disagree or have completely differing experiences than posters on this and other boards. I seldom point those differences out. But in your case I think you are doing harm with your irrational berating of the exquisite old Model 70's! And so I will be "monitoring" your posts as best as I can to make sure no person (that may not be as experienced with said Rifles as I am) is unduly influenced by your balder-dash!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

In one of my earlier posts I mentioned that the problem with your rifle may be in scope parallax or in the bedding; however, it is impossible for any legitimate rifle enthusiast or even a professional gunsmith to actually determine the exact cause of the current accuracy levels without a firsthand examination of the rifle. There are a small number of idiosyncrasies typical of these rifles as there are of all mechanisms, here are a couple of possibilities.



1.) First, pull your scope and remount another scope that you know to be absolutely reliable, boresight it and sight it in at 100 yds. dead on.



2.) Before doing this, loosen and re-tighten your action screws and then re-tighten as follows. Front screw first, as tight as possible. Rear screw next, just snug, about a turn short of as super-tight as the front one. Middle screw last, tighten just until you can barely close the floorplate so that the latch fully engages. Watch the surface of the action as you tighten and see if it seems to move in any direction except down into the stock mortise as the screws come up snug, if so, this indicates an error in the bedding which is what I think is causing your problem.



3.) Shoot your rifle and see what happens, if the problem persists, there are a few other things to check, starting with a burr on the crown. This will tilt a bullet as it exits the muzzle and tend to produce an increasing instability in the bullet over it's trajectory path, giving the results you are experiencing.



4.) If, you still experience problems, I would have a good gunsmith check the bedding as incorrect bedding can distort the action and thus produce some group distortions which are impossible to predict. The other problem here is either a tight spot in the barrel or a kink or flaw from manufacturing in it; this is very rare, but, it does happen.

To check for a tight spot, put a very tight patch over a bore-size jag and slowly run it through, feeling for over-all resistance; there is some minor variation in every bore, but, a major tight spot can indicate a barrel flaw that will produce pattern distortions over the time span of even a few shots as the warming barrel steel reacts.



If, you have a kink in the barrel and I seriously doubt that this is the case, I would simply have it replaced; Pre-64 bbls. were of very high quality-which is why they were in such high demand for decades among all types of terget shooters and both military and police snipers-but, lemons exist in everything, as Hot Core has so frequently demonstrated by his inchoate, ignorant and envious remarks.

Frank, Having lost what may have been some helpful advice in the mud slingin', I'd like to offer a couple personal experiences.

I have a .338 WM in a Ruger M77 that was a problem child from the word go. I let the gun shop clerk talk me into having it ported while waiting the required two weeks, (big mistake, by a young man).
The first day at the range was very dis-heartening! 5" patterns at best. I was to experiment with several brands and weights of factory ammo with little gain in accuracy. I gave up and put it away for a few months until I got out of the service and had access to a gunsmith I knew.

His (gunsmith) first observation was that the muzzle brake had been cut in such a way that the escaping gasses could not be even. I asked him to chop off the brake and put a target style crown on it. That reduced the groups by half. Next he bedded it, lapped the lugs and did a trigger job. It now shoots 250 gr. Sierra's into an inch so consistantly it's almost boring!
I've tried a few other loads including factory 225's, 200gr. Barnes and Nosler BT's, and now 250gr. Woodleighs. It seems to shoot them all about the same. It now has a 22" barrel which isn't a big deal to me but I wish I'd have gotten some good advice 18 years ago, prior to the brake being cut.

My point in all this is that it may vary well be several things contributing to an overall poor shooter. I personally think the bedding would be the first thing I'd suspect and then I'd have the crown checked.

So, let's total up the recommendations to help Mr. Frank from Non-Hakerin his last post.

1. Zero
2. Nada
3. Goose Egg
4. etc.

Still - nothing!

Looks like Non-Haker is only offering his normal blowhard Trash Talking. Doesn't surprise me from a person too STUPID to send the Barreled Action "along with" the Stock to a WoodSmith. OK Non-Haker, time for you to go into your Trash Talking Mode - as usual.

So, let's total up the recommendations to help Mr. Frank from VGin his last post.

1. Zero
2. Nada
3. Goose Egg
4. etc.

Nothing but Trash Talking me.

Looks like Non-Haker isn't the only Trash Talking Blowhard "Holy Grail" expert in the Three Stooges. VG, I really thought you had gotten past this point, but is is obvious a person can always count on defective breeding to rear it's ugly head.

Kind of surprises me after reading some of your fine posts, but if you choose to be an Idiot, so be it.

OK VG, time for you to go back into your Trash Talking Mode - as usual - since you have obviously run out of any "knowledge" concerning a (rag) Pre-64 M70.

So, let's total up the recommendations to help Mr. Frank from Kut in his last post.

1. Try another scope.
2. Check Stock Screws and look for Stock binding/skewing.
3. Check the Crown for nicks.
4. Have a GunSmith check it.
5. Barrel might have a tight spot.

Good recommendations! Must admit I am surprised.

Would have been a fine overall post "except" Kut had to end with his normal Blowhard Trash Talking. Doesn't surprise me from a person who's previous posts consisted of nothing but Lies when compared to his own words.

OK Kut, time for you to go back into your Trash Talking Mode with the other Two Stooges - as usual.

I don't know how to fix them and never claimed I could. Unlike the Village Idiot, I KNOW I don't have the expertise in this field, so I just have a gunsmith like Chic Worthing for example do it for me and that is my recommendation. He did a fine job in fixing the stock and bedding for me BTW. I always by a box of Winchester Power Points as I have always found that they shoot well in all pre-64s I've owned. Then I look at the shot pattern on the target and look for horizontal ( usually your front sling stud is catching on your rest) then verical stringing which is indicative of a bedding problem as is two shots together followed by a third flier. If your rifle appears to "scatter" them all over, then I would check the scope, mounts, etc. But aside from that rudimentary diagnosis protocol, I strongly recommend a competent gunsmith, if you try to fix it yourself, you might compund the problem.



VG you are absolutely right. For someone like Hot Blow who's had so many problems with the 70s yet claims he's had a bunch, wonder why he didn't quit after the first two or three, if he ever had any. He STILL can't read, but I'll try again: I NEVER had any problems with your diagnosis you microcephalic pinhead,just your incessant whinning about rifles you never owned. jorge

Hey Big Nate, EXCELLENT Post!!!

I do appreciate Big Nate's style. No condescending "unrequested advice" on how to post, just telling it like it is. In honor of it, this will be my last post to this thread about the (rag) Pre-64 M70 Potential Problems Mr. Frank is facing.

So, I leave it to a couple of "level headed posters" and the Trash Talking Blowhard Three Stooges(aka "Holy Grail" experts ) to help Mr. Frank.

Never did hear back from Mr. Frank about "my" list of Potential Problem ares for him to check. If you coppied them down Mr. Frank, I'd encourage you to try them, along with Gabe's and Big Nate's suggestions.

Nice "style" Big Nate.

toH eroC: You poor pathetic contrary!
You keep heaping disgrace and embarrassment upon your backward and contrary self to the point of making me laugh out loud.
Your bullheaded stupidity is indicative of the inbreeding that so often hails from your part of the country!
I will ask again (for the 4th or 5th time!) why did you keep with the Model 70 for so long? Long enough for you to attain your self described "EXPERT" status?
You simply make no sense what so ever and your lonesome view of the Model 70 is clue one to your inexperience and stupidity!
Go ahead call others stooges but you are the one that has attained stupid status publicly and repeatedly with your unproven and ridiculous stance on the Model 70. I will have more to add to Franks quest for accuracy once he works through some of the excellent suggestions he has received so far from me and others.
Til then be careful what you put down in print as I will not hesitate to correct your errors and assinine assumptions!
You cower away from direct questions so quickly I am beginning to think you are a dancer!
I will ask again (to further embarass you when you do not answer!) - why do so many custom Riflesmiths prefer to use the wonderful, strong, accurate, safe and beautiful pre-64 Model 70 action to base their Rifles on?
And - why did you stick with the Model 70 (the Rifle you so abhor!) for so long?
Just some simple questions for a simple man!
Dance around them again to your own besmirchment!
You poor, angry, pathetic, miserable excuse for a man! Excise the part of yourself that drives you into your baseless fits of contrariness and lunacy! Before you become stuck permanently in your lonesome anguish.
That and grow up a bit!
Thankfully you are being exposed for what you are! A myopic, non-sensical, small minded, offensive personalitied know-it-all!
Who cares about you anymore!
You still have not come up with even ONE (1) truthful or credible critique of the Model 70!
I can't wait to trash you and any tripe you flout in this regard!
Come on EXPERT - spurt some EXPERTISE out of your blowhole!
Long live the Riflemans Rifle!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

It is absolutely pointless to respond to this poser-wannabe-neverwas as he is not interested in anything other than making stupid remarks. I have noticed this before with him as he has a habit of attempting to sound like he actually knows something about rifles-hunting, however, his jealousy of others invariably leads him to indulge in precisely the sort of "trashtalk" that he attributes to us.

Actually, the comment concerning inbreeding is quite possibly true; his criticism of other poster's spelling in light of his own performance in that respect leads me to think that he may well be the product of a "morganatic" tryst. In any event, he is about as credible as Bill Clinton and I have yet to see a post of his that actually contained any real information, I don't expect to, either.