Wanting a 257 AI. I have couple of standard 257 Roberts. Kimber, and Dakota. Would consider converting the Kimber, or building one? This would be my first build, and would certainly appreciate recs. for action, barrel, and trigger. (Hunting trigger, but I prefer fairly light triggers) please include any pros, and cons. End result should be a very accurate medium light weight hunting rifle. (Mainly Whitetail, and Antelope).

Much appreciated.

I would sell the Kimber and build. 700 sction, Timney trigger, Rock Creek barrel finished at 23", Bell and Carlson Medalist stock or McMillan or HS Precision whichever you like best. Most importantly, find a competent gun builder.

no big job to convert to ai - ream out the chamber & set the barrel back - any good gunsmith is familiar with the conversion

First off.....if you're considering a build.....why a .257 AI?.....why not get some real .25 caliber performance from a .25-06 or even a .257 Weatherby.

If you've been led down the primrose path of serious performance gains of the "AI" process to the .257 Roberts, get over it fast.....it's slight at best compared to the same reloading of the parent case loaded to the same pressure.

Any of the "AI" chambered guns have dramatically reduced resale value and greater cost of dies and gunsmithing.......and the gains are no where near what some claim for it.....

FWIW.....either the .25-06 or the .257 Weatherby offer real gains over the .257 AI but if you want to save real cash....just handload the current rifle(s) you have in .257 Roberts to the same pressures you will load the "AI" case and you'll be within 50-100 FPS of whatever you would have with all the extra gunsmithing work of the "AI"

Very interesting response. I had wondered about the resale of a regular 257 vs an AI. Never have compared, nor have I ever shopped for a conversion. I do have a Cooper .280 AI, but it isn't a conversion. Never looked at reloading data on 25-06, or 257 Weatherby. Are they comperable, any inherent advantages to either?
I appreciate the responses. Need to reconcider. I won't convert either of my current guns, but may indeed have my next one built, or at least partially.

quote:

Originally posted by tc98:
Very interesting response. I had wondered about the resale of a regular 257 vs an AI. Never have compared, nor have I ever shopped for a conversion. I do have a Cooper .280 AI, but it isn't a conversion. Never looked at reloading data on 25-06, or 257 Weatherby. Are they comperable, any inherent advantages to either?
I appreciate the responses. Need to reconcider. I won't convert either of my current guns, but may indeed have my next one built, or at least partially.

If you really need one, build it. The caveat emptor, vapodog nailed it. Bring your normal Bobs up to modern pressure and you won't see much of a difference. Except, you may require extra gunsmith time to get the AI to feed.
My first 257 AI, was a 308. It was slick feeding, rebarreled to 257AI and was atrocious. My next one will be on a 98, with one of these.

If you already have a .257 Roberts and that isn't enough for you then I'm just guessing the "AI" is not going to impress you enough to be worth the trouble or investment.
I would sell one and buy a new 25/06 or 257 WBY.
The .257 Roberts stands on it's own and is a real killer of Deer but the AI version is an upgrade but not a big jump.

Well! Last night, and this morning have been a marathon of reading about the 25-06 Rem. vs the 257 Weatherby. All the specifics, ie cost of ammo, speed, accuracy within a wide range of bullet weight, recoil, case pros & cons.
With all that said, I'm gonna leave the Kimber, and the Dakota as they are. (Great guns to pass down to the grand children some day)
I'm gonna buy a 257 Weatherby. I have never owned a gun chambered in a Weatherby caliber.
Any suggestions? Price will not be a huge issue, but don't want to be ridiculous. Looking for a true 3 to 400 yd. power line, / plains gun. Also needs to be a doe, (burr of the ear) at 100 yds. machine. (no tracking through the green briar thickets in the dark) : )
Anyhow, thanks to all for your comments and help. Look forward to hearing gun suggestions!

I guess it depends on "why" you want one. If you want one just because you want one, then power on man, go forth and be merry. There won't be a huge difference ballistically. I doubt any deer would be able to tell the difference between getting hit with one vs. the other.

I have one of each, a 257 Roberts, a 257 Roberts AI, and a 257 Wby mag. The standard Roberts is a rifle I put together for my daughter, looking for mild recoil and based on components and dies I already owned.

My AI started as a standard Roberts with a junk barrel. I didn't know it was a junk barrel until I started load development. Many components and copper mining operations later and a trip to my 'smith and his borescope told me I needed a new bbl, due to severe pitting in the bore. I decided if I was going to rebarrel, then I wanted to go AI, no other reason than just because I wanted it.

Long story short, that "project" turned into a nightmare 3 year Odyssey with a gunsmith-turned-alchoholic and thinking I may never get my rifle back at all, I bought a 257 Wby mag.

I like the AI Roberts for the lack of case taper and the idea of little to no case trimming needed. Plus it's just a sexy looking round and I like geeking out over it. Ballistically, it's close enough to both the regular Roberts, and the 25-06 to take the place of either one. But the Wby trumps them all in the velocity dept (the -06 is close with some loads).

If your current Roberts rifles are good shooters, and your gunsmith knows what he's doing, your AI Roberts will be a good shooter. If one of your current Roberts rifles is a poor shooter, it is very likely turning it into an AI will not change that (unless it was a headspace issue which is unlikely).

I say if you want one, get it made. I find the comments about resale "value" dubious, but probably well intended. Any perspective buyer is not going to look at a Roberts chambered rifle unless they are already a reloader. Roberts factory ammunition has a long history of being pretty scarce, even before the latest "crisis" hit the stores. If you're converting a true classic collectors rifle, then yes, you will hurt the collectors value of the gun. But any modern production gun that you alter, will still keep it's value. You're going to be selling it to a handloader anyway, and you'll have dies (and likely brass too) to sweeten the deal. I'd say "non-issue" personally.

The other thing to watch out for is unfortunately, there are TWO different Roberts AI's out there. The "original" AI of P.O. Ackley his-own-self, was a 40 degree shoulder. For some unholy reason, there now exists another "AI" for the Roberts that is a 28 degree shoulder. Make sure you specify when you have yours cut, and make sure you get the correct shoulder angle die set when you buy dies. The RCBS sets have the shoulder angles clearly marked on the die box for the Roberts AI's. I'm not sure if every die maker also does so.

quote:

I'm gonna buy a 257 Weatherby. I have never owned a gun chambered in a Weatherby caliber.
Any suggestions? Price will not be a huge issue, but don't want to be ridiculous.

IIRC the Weatherby Vanguard (Howa) is so chambered.

That said, If I wanted a .257 WEEBY, I'd go to gunbroker and buy a M-70 in 7mm Rem mag or .300 Win Mag and simply rebarrel it. Save the old barrel as some day you might want to replace it.

All in all, the Weatherby Vanguard will be a thrifty purchase and they have a reputation for being a fine gun.

FWIW, I'm a real fan of the .25-06 and far prefer it over any other .25 caliber out there I've owned two .257 Weatherbys which are now gone. My M-70 in standard .257 Roberts is a real deer killer but I'm now building a new .25-06.......see "More darn Maple" on the custom guns forum. The .25-06 is slower than the Weatherby but not a lot and brass can be formed from .270, and .30-06 as well as purchased new. That said, I don't regret having a .257 weatherby.....it's one fine thing to do to a .257 bullet.

Well, again, if you want the Wby just because you "want" it, then power on. If all you're looking for is 300-400 yards, honestly, even the standard Roberts can handle that well. The Wby will shoot that far and easily shoot flatter certainly.

But what jumped out at me was the need for a "100 yard doe" gun. Honestly, that's not the Wby. At 100 yards, your bullet impact velocity is going to be very high. This is what bloodshots meat. I can only assume you're shooting does for meat. If you do shoot a doe at 100 yds with that Wby, stay out of any meat shots, strictly ribs (no meat) or neck shots (if you're into neck shots-I am not). But a shoulder shot on a deer at 100 yards, and you're going to end up throwing most of that shoulder away.

I'm running 115 gr Nosler ballistic tips in both my Wby and my AI, and I run the 100 gr Nosler ballistic tips in my daughter's std Roberts. I think the heavy 25 cal bullets are "best" in the larger cases like -06 or Wby case, as you can take advantage of the capabilities more.

My Wby is the older Vanguard rifle, with the wood stock. I know the original Vanguards you could only get a 24" bbl in all calibers. A lot of folks make hay about the big Wby case being wasted in a 24" bbl. I don't know if the new "II" version is now available with a longer bbl. I like my 24" bbl version, but if both were avail to me side by side, I'd consider the 26". The new Vanguards have adjustable triggers that are supposed to be very nice. Mine didn't come with that, it came with a really crappy trigger that I threw away and put a Timney trigger in. Another thing on Vanguards is they are heavy. Mine is a wood stocked rifle, and it weighs as much as my wood stocked M70 338 Win mag weighed (8 pounds with scope).

Remington made a few rifles chambered in 257 Wby a while back, and of course, Weatherby makes their Mark V in a couple versions, classic, laser, accumark, and ultralight.

I didn't want to buy the Mark V classic and tear it up hunting Coues deer in S. AZ, so I went with the Vanguard. If the ultralight had been out at the time, I may have considered it instead. I think I mostly bought mine because I got to hand pick the rifle and it had a really nice stock (for a Vanguard). Some of the original wood stocked Vanguards had just terrible wood on them, but ugly and no figure or contrast.

It's not a Mark V, but here's mine.

Doe shooting will be head shots from 150 & under. I do occasionally have a shot out to 250 or 300 at doe's, but will always take the dbl lung, or heart shot at 150 yds plus.
I found a Rem. 700 stainless fluted brl. and also a Mark V Ultra Light Weight with the desert camo composite stock. Stainless action & barrel that are blacked from the factory.
Thoughts welcome!

Either one of those would be fine, I've never owned a Remington bolt action rifle so I can't comment on them first hand or the Vanguard for that matter, either should suit your purpose.

Nice rifle! Great pic with the cat. Is yours one of the German made, or did they ever produce the Vanguard in Germany?

tc98,

Accordingly, a properly cut 257 Roberts AI chamber will take you to @ or not quite the 25-06 threshold.

Personally, I'd leave the two fine factory rifles in as is/original condition.

I have a 25-06 and my Buddy, Tommy the 257 Weatherby. I truly lust after the Weatherby performance because I see every time he totes his - just exactly what it is capable of. Simply put; with 100 gr. Swift Scirocco II's or 90 gr. Hornady GMX's a screaming hot, super-accurate long range medium game rifle.

.... but I also can't convince myself to upgrade from the 25-06 because it'll do 90% of what the Weatherby will and I've made a considerbale investment in it.

Do I need both a 25-06 & 257 Bee, nah ..... but IMO if I had to do it all over again I'd would have selceted the 257 Weatherby.

The Weatherby; as Slowpoke attests above is much better suited in to a 26" tube and the current crop of Weatheby Vanguards are very nice, super accurate, rifles.

There's a argument for brass, associated costs; performance etc. and obtaining both 257 Weatherby and 25-06 Remington brass here in Europe is not as easy a call to the nearest Mail Order House either; but we survive.

Tommy & I do a culling pilgramage to Namibia annually and both the 25-06 and 257 Weatherby are superb cartridges for this endevour which mean Springbok head shots at distance.

Have fun with your choice.

I have a 257 R with a long throat (early 77 Ruger); I seat the bullets way out; only about .1 inch of bullet remains in the case. I get 25-06 velocities very easily, approaching 257 W. No kidding; with tight primer pockets too, although I did loosen up a few when developing those loads. So, lesson is, work with your Bobs first to high pressure; it is plenty. Classic load data; not so much.

tc,

As far as I know, Howa in Japan has always made the Vanguard rifles, in either series. Perhaps you are thinking of the Mark V's, which were initially made in Germany (don't remember if they were called "Mark V's" at that point though?).

The Remington stainless fluted rifle is supposed to be a shooter, I've only heard about them, never had one or shot one. And that Ultralight Mark V would be a serious temptation if I had it to do over again today. Like I said previously, it wasn't available when I got mine. I almost went classic Mark V, but I knew I would scratch it to heck on the first Coues hunt, and didn't want the heartache. And just for me, something about the accumarks have just never appealed to me, can't really explain it.

The only Vanguards I've seen lately have been the new style synthetic stocks, which I like the shape and texture of, but they are still one heavy rifle. I bit more weight than I would really like in a quarter bore rifle. I wish I could take a pound or pound and a half out of mine, and retain the same wood stock. I think they use "leadwood" or something, dunno, but it's pretty heavy.

And I would stick to the 115-120 gr bullets in the Wby, especially for distance shooting. Better BC and energy retention, and those fly weight screamer bullets shed velocity and energy like mad as they scream down range.

But that is just my preference.

Brass stings to buy when you can find it. I just sucked it up and bought 100 pcs of brass when I bought my rifle. If you can find it at $1 (I mean $1 per piece, sorry) or slightly more, that is a good price for it and jump on it. I know some guys have made the 257 Wby brass out of 7 Rem mag brass, but I've never done it and I'm not giving my recommendations for it. I prefer factory headstamped brass when I can get it. Mine's never had a factory Wby round down the bbl, so I can't compare the factory ammo.

I've "lost" 2 pcs of brass since I bought mine, one on a deer hunt, and one I gave to a little boy at the range with his dad who was starting his first cartridge case collection.

My rifle shows a strong preference to RL-22 and a max charge with a Federal magnum primer. I seat my bullets to book OAL, which is 3.250", and I've had excellent accuracy from the Noslers.

The barrel heats up really fast when you're developing loads, so this is not a cartridge that you can just sit at the bench and wang away at the target with. After 3 careful deliberate shots, my barrel is hot enough you don't want to touch it, and certainly don't want to leave your hand or fingers on it. So I shoot 3 shots and let it sit to cool if I'm at the bench, or checking zero.

tc98
Harold Broughton, benchrest gunsmith and barrel maker, rechambered a .257 Roberts to a 40 degree Ackley several years ago for me. It was a 722 Remington. With a 24" barrel, it would do slightly over 3300 fps with a 100 grain bullet. I shot one deer with it and never took it hunting again. It would shoot better than I could hold. He also chambered a tang safety Ruger 7 x 57 to .280 factory. My son still hunts with it and it will touch all three shots @ 100 yds.
Mr. Broughton made barrels, but has passed on.
The only reason for trading the .257 off is a mental block for the .25 caliber. Just me.
I think the Ackley is a good flat cartridge. Just my experience-not trying to influence anyone.

There is no doubt that the 257R is a great rd. I don't want to rain on anyone's parade. But, If you look at the majority of the velocity increase claims they are against factory. Factory against handloads you are adding 12000+ PSI.

I spent years playing with AI and other wildcats. In a modern rifle loaded to equal pressure in a 7x57 based case you will get about 1% velocity for 3-4% capacity gain. Depending on your measurements and brass the AI gets you around 11-12% of figure 3-4% velocity. Same barrel before and after testing. Call it for you are still just over 100fps gain. Same barrel equal pressure is the only way to measure gain.

I will say the AI hides pressure better than the tapered case. Cut your chamber longer and seat the bullet out as far as possible and you will equal the AI.

Again if you want and AI please build one. I shoot more AIs or my own improved wildcats than factory. Just be realistic in your expectations.

With a long chamber I bet you give up less than 75fps to the 25-06.

Slim, I found a wood stocked VG that looks a lot like yours. It weighs 7 1/2 #
Do you like the action etc? I've never had, or handled a Weatherby. Any cons?

tc,

If it's an early one, the factory triggers tend to be horrible. I was initially just going to have my 'smith rework my factory trigger to an acceptable hunting trigger and be done with it. When he got into it, he called me and said the trigger was garbage (his words) and he recommended I toss it in the trash. I did, and ordered a Timney for it, which he put in and tuned for me. I've known other early Vanguards and shot a few, which also had terrible triggers, so it has seemed to be a pretty steady complaint. If this is an early one, the Timney trigger is avail for it "drop in", and cured the issue permanently for me.

If it's a later "II" version, they come with a much better trigger, that's adjustable, and comes set to a decent hunting pull out of the box. I've played with a few of them NIB, and they're much better than my stock one was.

As far as the action itself goes, I find they run pretty smooth in general. I've never had issues with mine, for function or feeding, and bolt throw is about what I would expect in a current production Rem or Win. They do not "feel" like a Weatherby Mark V, which is a different action design entirely, but I guess I'd compare it closer to a Rem 700. They tend to be pretty accurate right out of the box, I've not had any bedding work done with mine.

Also, slight trivia info, the Vanguard takes the same scope bases as the Rem 700.

A few years ago I bought a couple of Vanguards as donation rifles for others, and while they were chambered in 308, they shot very well with factory ammo. The one year the report I got back after the event was that "my" Vanguard outshot all the other donated rifles that year.

My only real complaints are the over all weight of the gun is heavier than it really should be, and the original Vanguards triggers were terrible. I don't really have any other complaints with mine, and I plan to keep it and hunt with it until I'm too old to do so.

Mine is set up for whitetail and antelope, more of an "open country" gun than my Roberts. I initially wanted it for Coues deer hunting in S. AZ. where shots can go 500 yards more often than not. I think the attributes that make it a good Coues deer rifle also will make it a good antelope rifle, and hope to use it if I can draw a tag up here. So it has kept it's place in my safe while I await a pronghorn hunt.

One of the best things about the AI cartridges is that you can rechamber the standard caliber rifles for them. If you start with a rifle you already like then rechambering is quick and inexpensive and you still have the rifle you like. If your Kimber fits the "I like it" category then just rechamber. Otherwise, why bother with an AI cartridge?

quote:

One of the best things about the AI cartridges is that you can rechamber the standard caliber rifles for them. If you start with a rifle you already like then rechambering is quick and inexpensive and you still have the rifle you like.

Problem with that to do it correctly you need to set the barrel back. Then if your barreled was nicely bedded you will have a larger gape down the stock. Wood you are going to have a gape or epoxy repair. Synthetic you have a repair depending on the material.

You have two very nice rifles and its hard to beat the std 257 Roberts or a 250-3000 for deer and antelope. The beauty of these two rounds is they hardly recoil and they kill as well as the IMP versions and probably as well as the 25-06 for all practical purposes..

But if you must, then my choice would be keep one of your 257s in standard version, and rechamber the other one to a 25-06, simple as running a reamer in the chamber, and you have the long 30-06 length magazine hopefully on one of those guns so you can seat bullets out and pick up a bit more velocity..

The 25-06 is about the ultimate deer and antelope rifle I'm told and what little bit I have used it, I felt like it was as good as a .270 for that kind of game, and that is no faint praise.

I am a died in the wool 270 guy and having said that I'll start my someday rifle. Start with any good single shot action, hook that up with a moderately heavy barrel of 28 inches so you can squeeze all the velocity potential out of the .257 Wby loaded with a Barnes 100 grain TTSX. It would be a hell of a stand hunting rifle where someone was set up at the top of a big canyon or alfalfa field. Then if you can see them, shoot them.

I am a quarter bore liker.
Had a 257 wby made on a sako action, Mcmillan stock and shilen 27" barrel
It's a great gun/cartridge in my opinion