I will be purchasing a Remington Custom Model Seven MS with a Mannlicher stock and a 20" barrel. I will be using it for target shooting. I was wondering want is the most accurate small rifle caliber between the .222 Rem , .223 Rem , 22-250, and the .243 Win? I would prefer to stay in a small caliber. I would like to be able to shoot to 500 maybe 600 yards. I also plan to purchase a Shepherd Scope to mount on the rifle. Any thoughts?

Thats a long way to shoot. I don't know if I ever made a 600 yard kill with my 26" bbl .243 Win.

All of those calibers will be accurate if everything is made right but by "accurate" I think you mean the ablity to hit something and bag it. That's a reasonable want.

I would go with the .243 Win. Then that light rifle would be nice to carry for deer also.

I used a couple of .222 Remingtons and they had much longer bbls than 20" I never made a kill over 295 yards with them on woodchucks.

The only Mannlicher stocked rifle I had grouped well but they are not noted for it. Also staying sighted in is more important than grouping.

"The best group is a single shot"

Since you stated this would be used for target shooting to 500 or 600 yards, I would be most concerned with the rifle choice first. A model seven is great for a light weight hunting rifle but it is not what I would use as a target rifle. You should be looking at one of the various heavy barrel rigs like a 700VS, 40x, or Sendero. Now with that said---- the .243 would be about the best choice for these distances unless you went into a fast twist 22-250 using heavy for caliber bullets. The .223 is also a good choice if it has a fast twist and your shooting heavy bullets.

I vote .243, but I never shoot mine more than 300yds.

For the money will not be able to beat a Rem700 VLS in 243,topped with a Leupold 4-12X with turrets.

If you can load,it will reward your efforts................

If you just want a fun shooter that is accurate and easy to reload for buy a .222 Rem. It's hard to find one that won't shoot.

The mannlicher stocked Model 7 may not meet your accuracy expectations for 500-600 yards. It is a nice compact rifle that I would be more likely to scope with a Leupold VX-III 1.5-5X. A large shepard scope on a tiny rifle like that seems a mismatch. But to each his own.
If I were looking for a Remington for serious 500-600 yard target shooting, the 700 VLS or VS in .243 or .308 would be my consideration. A 40X if I had a bit more to spend.

Good Luck. MM

The 6MM PPC is the most accurate cartridge in the world, Most people shoot it for target up to 300 yards. If you want to shoot it at longer yardages than change the twist so you can shoot a heavier bullet. 100 to 300 yards most shooter use a bullet around the 66 grain weight in a 1- 14 twist. I get my best accuracy with velocity around 3450 fps, but every rifle is different. If you want a great benchrest gunsmith e-mail and I will give you his name and number! Good Luck

I would like to thank everyone for their input and thoughts. I would have to say that you now have me looking on a different direction. In turn, brings up some new questions. I am now looking at the Remington 700 VLS, 700 VS, and the 700 PSS-(Police Sharp Shooter). If I wish to shoot out to 300 yards I guess I can go with the .233. If I wish to go out to 400 yards the .243 and if longer, the .308 or larger caliber. Looking at the three above listed guns, I have only noticed one differance between them in the .223 caliber. That is the rate of twist. The 700 VLS and VS have a 1:12 twist while the PSS has a 1:9 twist. The PSS is a must faster twist. Will this give me more speed and distance? Again your thoughts are welcomed.

Thanks..........Mark

If you want to use a .224 cal. for long range target work, you will need a fast twist barrel. You can get this two ways:

1. Take an existing rifle and have it rebarreled with a quality fast twist. i.e. 1-8. Then have it fitted with a target/competition stock.

2. Purchase a semi-custom competition rifle already set up with an optional fast twist barrel, such as a Remington 40X. http://www.remington.com/firearms/custom/40xb_ks.htm
They will both end up costing you about the same price.

As a side note, if you choose to shoot competetion with a .243, getting one with a fast twist designed for heavy vld bullets isn't a bad idea in this caliber as well.

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J.W.
Hero of the Hapless
Master of the Obvious

The faster(1-9") twist rate,will allow you to shoot heavier(longer) bullets,with higher BC's.

The 243 is twisted to allow much latitude in projectile selection. She is hard to beat,both in effectiveness and versatility.........

Also...one more question. What is eveyones thought about the Shepherd Scopes? I have used one on a friends .308 and the One-Shot Zero was so easy. Most on here seem to lean to other brands. Why? Has anyone else used a Shepherd?

Thanks......Mark

Sureshot.

I shoot service rifle competetion with the AR-15. Thus, most of my experience is with a gas gun with a 20" barrel.

My experience has shown that a 1-9 twist barrel will stablise 70gr vld bullets. (Berger) Anythig heavier doesn't work as well in my 1-9 upper receiver. Thus I reserve this for short range shooting. i.e. <300yrds
Note: Some people have had luck shooting heavier bullets in their 1-9 barrels, but the reports havn't been consistant and seem to vary from gun to gun and from day to day (temperature).

On full size ranges (600yrds) I use an upper receiver with 1-8 twist barrel. This stablises 80gr vld bullets and seems to be the set up of choice among most service rifle shooters.

Note: those shooting the 223 at ranges greater than 600yrds tend to use a 1-7 twist. It apparently stablises the 80gr bullets better than 1-8 at these extreme (for caliber)ranges.

However, the 1-8 set up will shoot consistantly at 600yrds. But, this is not a flat shooting set up. I add 12 MOA to the rear sight between 300 and 600 yrds.

I hope this helps answer some of your questions.

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J.W.
Hero of the Hapless
Master of the Obvious

Hey sureshotnc(Mark), Good to see another Carolina poster join the Board. Once you get your rifle selected, you are more than welcome to join me at the Range. And I'll be glad to help you get started reloading.

ALL the advice you got above is good. And your decision to change over to a M700 "V-Series" rifle is sound. One hidden benefit of getting one of them is a SAAMI Minimum chamber which is a subtle benefit to achieving your long range accuracy goals. If there are other "factory rifles" made with this advantage, I'm just not aware of it.

If you think you might ever want to Deer Hunt with the rifle, then the 308Win would be the best caliber for you. It will typically be less affected by "wind drift" at the longer ranges due to the availability of higher Ballistic Coefficient bullets in Match Grade weights. Recoil is a bit more(but easily handled) and component costs are more than the 223Rem. This is normally an easy cartridge to get good accuracy with and there are lots of components that work well within it's design envelope.

If you only plan to shoot Targets and Varmints, then the 223Rem would make an excellent cartridge to start with. Recoil is basically nonexistant and component costs are very low. This is a very easy cartridge to get good accuracy with and lots of components work well in it too.

The 1-in-9 twist of the PSS allows you to stabilize "heavier than normal" bullets in the rifle than is typically used. But, it will not allow you to shoot lighter bullets as fast as you can get them going in a slower twist(1-in-10" or 12"). At 300yds, the extra Velocity(meaning less time until the bullet reaches the target) "might" be an advantage since there is less time for the wind to push it around.

Big arguments about the higher Ballistic Coefficient(real heavy) bullets going a bit slower, but with less resistance for the wind to push against making them better suited. This then degrades into "theoretical" discussions that get long and boring. No doubt at 1000yds the 240gr MatchKing is an advantage, but as the distance gets shorter, then that advantage is reduced to argument.

For example, if you had the PSS in 308Win, you could use the 240gr Sierra MatchKing and it would stabilize. It normally will not stabalize in the slower twists. That might not be of great interest to you in the beginning though.

Good luck to you as you go forward.

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Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core

Sureshot,

I have a Remington 700 PSS in 300win. with a Shepard PS-1 scope. I like the one shot zero and the range finding features of the scope. However, with the $500+ price tag you are getting right up there with a Leupold.

The glass in the shepard is good, but (to my un-trained eye) It didn't seem as sharp or as bright as my friends VX-3.
I'm not unhappy with the Shepard, but I would never tell someone who opted to purchase a Leupold that they made a mistake.

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J.W.
Hero of the Hapless
Master of the Obvious

Thank you for all your help. I now think I will go with a Remington 700 PSS with Bipod in a 308. Top with either a Leupold or a Shepherd. Any other thought are welcomed.

Mark

Mark,

Try a 700 SF Sendaro in either 7 STW or 300 Ultra. Top it off with a 6.5-20x50 Vari-X III and you have yourself a rig for shooting over the peanut and cotton fields in the coastal areas of NC.

Regards,

Mark

FYI I have a buddy that has a Shepherd in like new condition for sale if you are interested in saving a bit of scratch?

Dog

It is not generally the cartridge design that determines accuracy (certain exceptions: short-fat cases usually are a little better than long, skinny ones), but the quality of the rifle and sighting equipment. In .24 caliber, the 6mm/.284 will give you better down-range performance than a .243 Win., because it has higher velocity which will buck wind better. i don't consider any of the .22-calibers you listed as being suitable for 500-600 yard target shooting, and none of them could be used for shooting anything alive at such ranges. Of the cartridges you list, the .234 Win. would be the best, but even it is limited to not much over 400 yards for varmint shooting. For targets, you could stretch it to 500, if you are good at doping wind.

I don't know if I can answer your question 100%. First off the .222 is the more accurate of the cartridges you did mention in your post. I am speaking of course at realistic yardages....Not 600 yards.

That type of shooting is something that never interested me a whole lot, though I have done some with in laws. The 500 or 600 yard shots I would think, best be suited for a heavier bullet in a boat tail. I always sighted my varmint hunting rifles in for 250 yards dead on, so you can see that shooting 600 yards would require a lot of holdover. We hunt groundhogs mostly around the farm, and usually speaking they can be found much closer in yardage to the hunter.

As someone who does a bit of long range shooting including competition at 1000yrds. I have to say that for 400-600 yrds the .308 PSS is probably your best bet in a factory gun. It will do, but won't do great unless the gun is reworked with better bedding and a good jewell trigger. The shepard scope is way to gimmicky and you'd be better off with a 6.5-20 leupold with fine crosshairs. You want to See the target right? As for twist rate, the issue is that a faster twist will stabilize longer/heavier for caliber bullets, thus allowing for a better BC and improved performance at range. Since these bullets will be heavier they will start out slower but maintain their energy and stay supersonic out to your intended target. Speed isn't everything! Personally for 600-1000yrds a 22-250 AI shooting 80 gr Berger VLD's in a 1-9 inch twist, 28 inch barrel on a Stolle( or blueprinted Rem 700) action would be hard to beat. You will probably be very disappointed with factory anything at these ranges.-Rob

I met an old trapper in Montana last month that killed a very large muley buck at a measured 539 yards with his .243 using a
Shepherd scope. His partner ranged the deer and then he used the right circle and shot the buck through the heart with an 80 grain speer varmint bullet. He has also made some super shots on coyotes using it this way. I think that if you tried to use the scope for ranging, it would be pretty close but it may take longer to settle on the right circle. Personally, I would rather have a good standard scope, learn my trajectories and then use a range finder for exact range. You can get a good scope and a range finder for what a Shepherd costs. I shot his 22-250 which also had a Shepherd on it and it was great, but I think for the money the other option would be better. Just my 2 cents.

For accuracy it is tough to beat the .22 PPC and the .22 BR. They were designed as benchrest rounds. For a larger bore the 6mm BR or PPC are dominant in their fields. I use a 6 BR in a custom XP on occassion and it is very accurate. Outside the exotica the .222 Rem is about as good as you will find out of a factory gun, probablly a Sako or one of the forthcomming Steyrs would fill the bill niceley